1 Monday, 17th September 2001
2 (9.45 am)
3 MS ATTRACTA BRADLEY, sworn
4 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
5 LORD SAVILLE: Ms Bradley, if you look to
6 your right, I say this to all the witnesses. I am the
7 Chairman of the Inquiry. The questions will in the
8 main come from the barristers who sit in front of me.
9 All I would ask you to do is keep fairly close to that
10 microphone in front of you and then we can all hear
11 what you have to say.
12 MR ROXBURGH: Mrs Bradley, do you have with
13 you a copy of the statement that you made to this
14 Inquiry on 16th May this year, of which we have the
15 first page on the screen at AB56.1?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
18 the best of your knowledge and belief?
19 A. They are.
20 Q. Can we move straight, please, to paragraphs
21 17 to 19 of the statement at page AB56.3? You are
22 dealing in these paragraphs with attending to some
23 injured patients, your recollection of attending to
24 system injured parents in what you were subsequently
25 told was Vinny Coyle's house.
1 In paragraph 18, three lines from the end,
2 you say:
3 "I attended to a young man known as 'Red
4 Mickey'. He had this nickname as he had red hair. His
5 proper name is Michael Doherty. I must have known him
6 at the time. He had a gunshot wound high up his leg
7 near his backside."
8 Could you explain, please, what you mean when
9 you say you must have known Mr Doherty at the time?
10 A. Um, I think he was known around the town as
11 "Red Mickey" because he had red hair and somebody says
12 that is "Red Mickey", it is Mickey Doherty, "Red
13 Mickey", that is all. I would not have known him
14 personally.
15 Q. Did you, at any stage, know him personally
16 either at Bloody Sunday or after?
17 A. No, afterwards I would have known a neighbour
18 who lived by me years later when I was married, he
19 would have been a friend of his, so that is how I would
20 have remembered his name over the years. But I -- you
21 know, I think he worked on the markets.
22 Q. When you say the market, do you mean the
23 market that used to be where the Rossville Flats car
24 park was later or some other market?
25 A. I cannot remember where the market was. Was
1 it William Street? I cannot remember.
2 Q. In William Street, you think?
3 A. I think there was a market.
4 Q. Do you have a recollection of this man as
5 someone that you knew by sight?
6 A. By sight.
7 Q. Can you remember how old he was?
8 A. No, he was older than myself anyway, you
9 know.
10 Q. Can you remember whether he was in his
11 twenties or thirties or forties, or older or younger?
12 A. If I was in my twenties, he probably would
13 have been thirties or maybe late twenties.
14 Q. Do you know where he lived?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How did you know the reason for his nickname?
17 A. He had red hair and I think people called him
18 "Red Mickey". It must have been bright red hair.
19 I have not seen him in years, so I cannot remember if
20 he still has bright red hair, but ....
21 Q. Did someone tell you that the reason for his
22 nickname was that his hair was red or did you just
23 assume that?
24 A. Somebody must have told me.
25 Q. Did he tell you on Bloody Sunday how he had
1 come by his injury?
2 A. I cannot remember.
3 Q. Would you have asked him?
4 A. I possibly would have, but it is so long ago.
5 Q. Has anyone told you subsequently how he came
6 to be injured that day?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you remember whether his injury was in
9 the left leg or the right?
10 A. I cannot, sorry.
11 Q. Did he have any other injuries, so far as you
12 can recall, apart from the injury in his leg?
13 A. I cannot recall any other injuries.
14 Q. Can you remember what happened to him after
15 you had treated him?
16 A. No. I know he did not want to go to
17 Altnagelvin, like most of the people at that particular
18 time.
19 Q. Do you know whether he was taken to any
20 hospital or whether he just went home, or what?
21 A. He possibly went to Altnagelvin, now he, I do
22 not know -- we did not take him in the ambulance,
23 whether the Altnagelvin ambulance took him, I do not
24 know. I just remember a lot of chaos in that house and
25 a lot of, a lot of people and a lot of shouting and
1 roaring and a lot of panic.
2 Q. Do you know where he is now?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever heard anyone talk about where
5 he is now?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When did you last see him?
8 A. Years and years ago.
9 Q. Do you remember how tall or short he was?
10 A. He was quite tall, I am very small, so it
11 would not take much to be taller than me, but I know he
12 was quite tall.
13 Q. Are you able to give an estimate in feet and
14 inches as to how tall he was or is that too difficult?
15 A. I am five-foot, so he must have been nearer
16 six or just under it.
17 Q. There is some evidence that he was tall with
18 blond hair; could that be right?
19 A. I just remember red hair, I do not remember
20 blond hair.
21 Q. Presumably you remember that at the time of
22 Bloody Sunday there were two wings of the IRA, the
23 Provisionals and the Officials.
24 Did you ever hear the Provos remembered to as
25 the "green IRA"?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or the Officials referred to as the "red
3 IRA"?
4 A. No, I just would have heard the Provos or the
5 Stickies.
6 Q. Is it possible that one of the reasons he was
7 known as "Red Mickey" was that he was involved with the
8 Official IRA as far as you know?
9 A. I never considered that, I just thought he
10 had red hair, he was called "Red Mickey".
11 Q. In paragraph 19 you say that the injured
12 patients at Vinny Coyle's house did not want to go to
13 Altnagelvin Hospital and instead asked to be taken to
14 Letterkenny.
15 So far as you know, Mrs Bradley, was any of
16 them in fact taken to Letterkenny?
17 A. Not as far as I know.
18 Q. If we move on, please, to paragraph 28 on
19 AB56.4, you refer to the man who was bruised from head
20 to toe and you say that you were appalled at the extent
21 of his injuries and had since been informed that his
22 name is Barry Liddy.
23 Can you recall in any more detail the nature
24 of his injuries?
25 A. I just remember he was bruised everywhere as
1 though he was hit; he had bruises on most of his body.
2 It is a long time ago -- sorry.
3 Q. Can you remember any part of his body in
4 particular being where the injuries were, or not?
5 A. I would be telling a lie if I could tell you
6 definitely, I cannot. I did not write it down at the
7 time and I have treated so many people over the years
8 that --
9 Q. Do you remember whether he told you what had
10 happened to him?
11 A. He told me he was beaten up, I think in the
12 courtyard.
13 Q. Did he tell you anything more than that or
14 simply he had been beaten up at Fort George?
15 A. That is all I remember.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs Bradley, those are
17 all my questions.
18 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
19 MR CLARKE: Mrs Bradley, my name is Clarke
20 and I appear on behalf of a number of the soldiers.
21 Do you remember at the end of that day -- and
22 I appreciate it is a very long one for you -- you
23 carried on working until six in the morning, did you
24 not, at St. Mary's in the Creggan?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Was there a time when Leo Day asked you to
2 write down your recollections of what had happened?
3 A. I cannot remember writing down the
4 recollections. I know Hugh Deehan, who was with me
5 that day, wrote down on behalf of both of us. I think
6 I went straight to work. I was working as a student
7 nurse in Altnagelvin at the time, so therefore I would
8 have went straight to work and I would not have been
9 able to attend as many of the meetings as some of the
10 others would have been able to.
11 Q. A few days later, do you remember you were
12 all asked to write down your statements by Leo Day?
13 A. I do not remember, but I know Hugh Deehan
14 says he did.
15 Q. You do not --
16 A. I remember other people were asked to write
17 them down. I think I might not have been at that
18 meeting, maybe I did, but I just cannot remember.
19 Q. Because there did come a time when you wrote
20 a list, did there not?
21 A. A list, the list of names?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. That was a list I wrote on the day.
24 Q. Do you remember writing that?
25 A. I do remember writing that, yeah.
1 Q. Where did you write that?
2 A. I must have -- it must have been a list that
3 people told me the name, you know, as I was walking
4 from the Bogside up to Creggan.
5 Q. You are sure you did not write it later,
6 Mrs Bradley?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was it written while you were walking?
9 A. It was written either in the Bog or on the
10 way up. It was not written afterwards, no.
11 Q. Do you know why you wrote it?
12 A. People were just saying, did you hear -- just
13 such a dramatic thing to be told somebody had been shot
14 dead, that I -- I tend to scribble a lot, so
15 I scribbled names down and somebody would say somebody
16 else has been shot and I wrote the names down.
17 Q. Can we have a look at AB56.34, please? Is
18 that your handwriting, Mrs Bradley?
19 A. It is, yeah.
20 Q. If I could just decipher and if you could
21 contradict me if I am wrong. If we go down the names:
22 James Wray; P Doherty; M Kelly?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. B McGuigan?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. J Duddy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. W McKinney?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. H Gilmore?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. John Young?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. W Gillespie?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. G Donaghy?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. G McKinney?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. William Nash?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Michael McDaid?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Eddie McLaughlin?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. American cameraman?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Joe Friel?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Kevin McElhinney?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On that piece of paper you have written down,
3 if I could put this way, the vast majority of their
4 addresses; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You, today, have a very sketchy recollection
7 of 30th January 1972?
8 A. Uh-huh, unfortunately.
9 Q. How did you go about trying to remember
10 things when the Eversheds solicitor came to speak with
11 you about making a statement?
12 A. There are things that I did remember and
13 there was times I was getting flashbacks. Even last
14 night I had another flashback as I was talking to
15 somebody and I have added (inaudible) that to the end
16 of my statement. There are certain things I do
17 remember on that day and it is very sketchy,
18 whereabouts I was or what I was doing. I would love to
19 be hypnotised so that I would know.
20 Q. Mrs Bradley, do you remember where you got
21 this list from or where this list was retrieved from so
22 that you could look at it?
23 A. I had it at home, I had it with other
24 momentoes, you know, in a box and it was when I was
25 called forward I told my solicitor that I had --
1 I actually wrote a wee list that day and he says, "can
2 I see it?", so I handed it to him.
3 Q. Could you look at your statement AB56.3,
4 paragraph 17:
5 "I also have a memory of attending to some
6 injured patients in a house. I was subsequently told
7 that it was Vinny Coyle's house. Unfortunately, by
8 this time, I believe that I must have been suffering
9 from some kind of shock at the sight of so many injured
10 people. The only person I recognised in the Coyle's
11 house was Dr McDermott."
12 A. I will tell you how I know it was
13 Vinny Coyle's house: I was at the gym a few years ago
14 and I remember being in a house, a few houses and I was
15 -- Vinny Coyle's son came over to me and he says,
16 "I remember you on Bloody Sunday" and I says, "I am
17 glad you do because I do not". He said, "you were in
18 our house" and he told me I was in a state of shock
19 because there was so many injured about, that I was
20 going from one to the other and I must have had a blank
21 then.
22 Q. Could you make sure that the stenographer to
23 your right can hear everything you say? If you could
24 speak a little slower.
25 A. Will I repeat that?
1 Q. That is fine. When you were treating people,
2 do you remember Dr McDermott at Vinny Coyle's?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Do you remember treating anyone other than
5 Mickey Doherty?
6 A. I know I did treat others, but I do not
7 remember. I only assume that it must not have been
8 gunshot wounds or I would have remembered.
9 Q. Do you remember treating, for example,
10 Patsy O'Donnell?
11 A. The name does not ring a bell.
12 Q. Patsy O'Donnell was shot in the shoulder in
13 Glenfada Park?
14 A. I may have done, but I cannot remember.
15 Q. Can I show you why I suggest that: could we
16 have a look at AF14, the bottom half of the page? This
17 is a document that was attached to the statement of
18 Mr Feeney, Bernard Feeney; do you remember he was a
19 Knight of Malta? There is a reference, I think it is a
20 Sunday Times document. This is a resume of their
21 interviews, not necessarily with you, but with Knights
22 of Malta about what different people did.
23 You were with Hugh Deehan in the ambulance?
24 A. I was, yes.
25 Q. You treated Michael Quinn with a face injury?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. And then treated Patsy O'Donnell probably
3 (not Connell) and persuaded him to go to Altnagelvin?
4 A. I may have done, I just --
5 Q. No recollection of that?
6 A. No, sorry.
7 Q. And then finally: "Treated gunshot wound in
8 leg which not taken to hospital (who?)".
9 That is obviously the journalist jotting down
10 what somebody has told him or her.
11 Do you have any recollection of the middle
12 passage?
13 A. I do not. I know I did give an interview, my
14 husband told me to the Sunday -- one Sunday paper and
15 maybe they would have a record of what I says, it would
16 be --
17 Q. You have no recollection?
18 A. No, I am sorry.
19 Q. You therefore, is it fair to say -- can we go
20 back to AB56.34, your list -- you, on the day, when you
21 are treating them, had no idea of anyone's name apart
22 from Mickey Doherty?
23 A. No, those were names that people gave me as
24 I was --
25 Q. Could you help as to how they gave them to
1 you? Did people come up to you and volunteer them or
2 did you collect them?
3 A. Possibly somebody walking past says, "did you
4 hear Michael Kelly was killed?", and I would have kept
5 -- wrote it down, just wrote it down on a piece of
6 paper and I says, "where did he live? 9 Dunmore", so I
7 would have wrote it down.
8 Q. You are sure you did not sit down several
9 hours later and write this down?
10 A. I am a hundred per cent positive.
11 Q. Is that list really, with the straight
12 left-hand margin, is that written standing up in the
13 street taking names?
14 A. As I would have stopped, I would have stopped
15 somewhere and wrote it, I would never write, could not
16 write walking, I would have had to have leaned against
17 something.
18 Q. But the addresses as well?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Did you put the addresses down as you got the
21 names?
22 A. I must have done.
23 Q. You did not know those addresses, did you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you did not actually know the names of
1 the people directly, you got them from other people?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. You must have?
4 A. I must have, yeah.
5 Q. Do you remember any of the people who gave
6 you that information?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No recollection at all?
9 A. No -- it is like a blank from I was in
10 a house treating people until I was walking halfway up
11 Broadway. My husband lived in Broadway, but I did not
12 go to his house that day, I must have went straight up
13 to this school, St Mary's School.
14 Q. If you kept this list, it was obviously
15 something you felt was of importance?
16 A. Yeah, those people who were killed, people
17 says to me so and so's dead and I must have wrote it
18 down. You know, I do not remember sitting in
19 a building or sitting anywhere writing down the list of
20 names.
21 Q. Were you choosing dead and wounded, or what
22 was your criteria?
23 A. I thought it was dead.
24 Q. You thought it was dead?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. I wonder if you can help who Eddie McLaughlin
2 is?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. No idea?
5 A. I had not looked at the list from that day
6 until I showed it to my solicitor. I just knew it was
7 there, I did not know who that was.
8 Q. Do you have the original there with you?
9 A. No. (Handed).
10 Q. In the days following you must have heard the
11 names of all those who had died?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Did you not compare it with your list?
14 A. I cannot remember. I may have done, I cannot
15 remember.
16 Q. Did you ever make any inquiries of your
17 husband to be or anyone: what happened to Eddie
18 McLaughlin?
19 A. No, I did not, I did not.
20 Q. Do you know now?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Because you were only writing down --
23 A. What people told me.
24 Q. And it was sound information, was it not?
25 A. -- it seemed to be at the time, but there was
1 a lot of --
2 Q. Go on.
3 A. There was a lot of rumours, people would
4 say, "did you hear so and so was killed? --
5 Q. That is why I want you to help, if you can,
6 Mrs Bradley. Obviously if you cannot, it is no
7 question of pressing you. Generally speaking, the
8 first dozen names are very reliable, are they not;
9 there is no incorrect information?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Because there are an awful lot of rumours
12 flying around at that early stage, were there not?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. An awful lot. You were taking down people's
15 addresses as well as their names on the list?
16 A. You see, I work as a nurse in Altnagelvin and
17 I would be used to writing names and addresses, I used
18 to write names -- it would have been automatic -- where
19 do they live, you know, in case somebody asks me
20 afterwards.
21 Q. Why is it then, do you know, in your own mind
22 that Eddie McLaughlin does not have an address?
23 A. Or Michael McDaid; I do not know.
24 Q. Or Michael McDaid?
25 A. I do not know, I cannot --
1 Q. What about "American cameraman", do you know
2 where that came from?
3 A. Somebody must have says to me there is an
4 American cameraman dead.
5 Q. As far as you remember that was a death not a
6 wound?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. But these are both wounded and deceased, are
9 they not, the list when you take it down?
10 A. Yeah, I honestly cannot remember. I would
11 love to be able to help you, but ...
12 Q. I want you to help the Tribunal if you can
13 remember: why is it that you did not put Mickey
14 Doherty's name on this list?
15 A. I do not know.
16 Q. He is the one name you did know?
17 A. Yeah. I must have been trying to write the
18 dead people. It was 30 years ago, it is very hard to
19 remember something --
20 Q. Mrs Bradley, forgive me if I am pressing you,
21 the suggestion that may be made in very strong terms is
22 that Mickey Doherty was a gunman who shot a soldier?
23 A. I never heard that.
24 Q. Have you ever heard that before?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Never?
2 A. A gunman that shot a soldier? No.
3 Q. And that the shot that he fired towards
4 Barrack Street -- you know where I mean by
5 Barrack Street?
6 A. Somewhere up near the walls, is it?
7 Q. Went through a flak jacket, straight across a
8 soldier's chest?
9 A. I never heard that.
10 Q. You never heard that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Has anyone in the last 30 years approached
13 you in any way to be a little bit circumspect, a little
14 bit quiet, about Red Mickey Doherty?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Never?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you make your list, why is he not at the
19 top of the list, he is the first name that you know?
20 A. All I can assume that these were people that
21 I was told was dead, whereas Mickey Doherty was
22 injured, that is all I can assume. I cannot think of
23 any other reason I would have -- I did not do it
24 deliberately or anything.
25 Q. Do you remember, therefore, on that day
1 drawing distinctions between the wounded and the dead?
2 A. I just vaguely remember writing the dead down
3 that I thought were dead.
4 Q. Your best recollection and understanding at
5 the time was that there were 17 people dead?
6 A. Uh-huh. That was within me leaving the
7 Bogside and walking up towards the Creggan.
8 Q. When everyone was talking of 13, do you
9 remember going to your list and saying "I have got a
10 list of 17 dead"?
11 A. I possibly did that at the time. My memory
12 is not great, I am really sorry.
13 Q. When you originally attended, you were on
14 duty in the ambulance; you remember that?
15 A. I remember being in the ambulance on duty.
16 Q. And you were summoned by radio?
17 A. That is the bit I cannot remember.
18 I remember hearing voices come -- an English voice
19 coming over a radio saying "there were shots fired",
20 something about Waterloo Street -- either in the
21 vicinity of Waterloo Street -- Waterloo Street was
22 mentioned. I do not know at that minute whether we
23 decided to go straight down the town. We did not
24 realise anything was happening or whether the car came
25 up with Michael Quinn on board, I cannot remember --
1 Q. No independent recollection?
2 A. No. I admire people who have great
3 recollection, but I do not.
4 Q. Do you remember, Mrs Bradley whether and how
5 many addresses there were where it was pre-arranged
6 that people would be taken if they were injured?
7 A. We did not really expect anybody to be
8 injured that day.
9 Q. Really?
10 A. We did not, no.
11 Q. Come on, the ambulance does not always come
12 out, does it? Leo Day was a bit worried about the
13 ambulance being used, was he not?
14 A. We kept the ambulance -- he wanted the
15 ambulance kept out of the way in case there would be --
16 Q. In case it provoked trouble?
17 A. In case people thought, you know, we were
18 expecting trouble.
19 Q. But you were out there in some force as
20 Knights of Malta, were you not?
21 A. I think most people were out because it was a
22 civil rights march and they wanted to be out there.
23 There was a big crowd there, therefore we were asked to
24 be there. And it was a joyful day, it was great fun,
25 it was a beautiful sunny day and everyone was in great
1 form. It was not a day expected there would be
2 trouble.
3 Q. Not even a little riot?
4 A. I did not honestly expect there would be a
5 riot that day. There was so many people, I thought,
6 and there was people went on that march that day that
7 would never have went before.
8 Q. Because you were on call in the ambulance
9 ready for problems, were you not?
10 A. That would be normal with any Knights of
11 Malta, should we have been at a football match or at a
12 concert or anywhere, we would be on call, we would be
13 ready to go.
14 Q. Do you remember an area called "Candy
15 Corner"?
16 A. I do, yes.
17 Q. Was not that one of the first aid posts that
18 was going to be used?
19 A. That was a first aid post that I remember we
20 used all during the Troubles. I do not remember
21 specifically that we had that name for that on that
22 day.
23 Q. So "Candy Corner" was one of the recognised
24 what, Knights first aid posts or just a general first
25 aid post if somebody got injured?
1 A. I would not have been very high up in the
2 Order of Malta, but I remember I worked in it as a
3 member of the Knights of Malta. I do not know who
4 owned it, but we did open a post there. There were
5 other people working there who were not Knights of
6 Malta.
7 Q. What other posts were there in the Bogside
8 and the Creggan?
9 A. Early on in the Troubles there would have
10 been one near the Bogside Inn and then at St. Mary's
11 School.
12 Q. Somebody's private house near the Bogside
13 Inn?
14 A. I honestly cannot remember.
15 Q. Can you remember how and why you went to
16 Vinny Coyle's?
17 A. Somebody must have pulled us there. That is
18 what happened, somebody must have come over and says
19 you are needed in this house or you are needed here.
20 Q. What about Mrs Shiels' house, do you remember
21 that as being a place that was recognised as a place
22 where people might be taken in Columbcille Court,
23 Ma Shiels?
24 A. It is ringing a bell, you know.
25 Q. It is not ringing any bells?
1 A. It is ringing a bell the name, yeah, it is.
2 Q. There were several --
3 A. Raymond Rogan's house was another house
4 I would have attended people in.
5 Q. Say the name again?
6 A. Raymond Rogan; I remember that name, you
7 know.
8 Q. There were certainly about half a dozen
9 recognised addresses if somebody was injured?
10 A. No, I think it is just when somebody was
11 injured they were pulled into these houses and they
12 just opened the doors and let the people in. I do not
13 think there were recognised houses that people had to
14 go to if people were injured. I think it just
15 happened. The houses were there, somebody was injured
16 and they were pulled into the nearest available door.
17 Vinny Coyle being a very big character
18 probably would have called people into his house,
19 I presume, if they were injured, and maybe the other
20 two people, Raymond Rogan would have been a very well
21 respected member of the community and I am sure if
22 there was a problem, he would have opened his door and
23 let people in.
24 I do not know the name Shiels; it is ringing
25 a bell, I do not know --
1 Q. Understand, Mrs Bradley, I am not seeking to
2 either embarrass or confuse you in asking these
3 questions, but in your time as a Knight of Malta during
4 the 1970s, or as a nurse, did you treat a number of
5 people who had plainly been shot in engagements against
6 the army?
7 A. Did I treat -- I am sure I did. I am trying
8 to specifically. I have treated a lot of people in
9 Altnagelvin as well --
10 MR TOOHEY: The question may be ambiguous; do
11 you mean at the hospital or somewhere else?
12 MR CLARKE: Either as a Knights of Malta on
13 the street or at Altnagelvin as a nurse?
14 A. I treated lots in Altnagelvin as a nurse.
15 I treated more actually army personnel and police
16 across the town rather than, than civilians injured.
17 I seemed to be in positions where I had treated a lot
18 of soldiers and policemen. I am trying to think of
19 civilians --
20 Q. Mrs Bradley, I will not ask you for the
21 names. I do not want to embarrass you in that way at
22 all, but what I do suggest is that there have been
23 occasions, particularly as a Knight of Malta rather
24 than as a nurse, where you almost have to turn a blind
25 eye as to how the person was injured; it is none of
1 your business really.
2 A. It is none of my business. I treat everybody
3 what creed or whatever they do. I do not --
4 Q. Is not "Red Mickey" Doherty somebody who was
5 moderately well-known in the Creggan and the Bogside?
6 A. Not at that time.
7 Q. We are told in very strong terms by your
8 namesake, previously a Roman Catholic priest, that
9 nobody could move out of the Bogside or the Creggan
10 without most people knowing, certainly the priest
11 knowing within days. Was it a bit like that?
12 A. I can honestly say I did not know that "Red
13 Mickey" was involved in anything at that time when
14 I treated him.
15 Q. You may not have known he was involved in
16 anything, but you knew who he was, did you not?
17 A. At that time, no. I just knew, somebody must
18 have says, "that is 'Red Mickey'". I did not know,
19 I just assumed he was shot like everybody else was shot
20 that day and there was no funny reason behind it or
21 suspicious reason.
22 Q. Then later on you did discover a bit more
23 about him because he knew a neighbour of yours?
24 A. A neighbour of mine would have known, he
25 says, "that is 'Red Mickey', he works down the market",
1 I would have seen him working in the market.
2 Q. Which market?
3 A. Behind the walls then years later.
4 Q. Selling what, do you remember?
5 A. I cannot honestly.
6 Q. Again I am not asking for the name,
7 Mrs Bradley, but do you remember the name of your
8 neighbour who knew "Red Mickey"?
9 A. I do know the name of him, yeah.
10 Q. Would you be content to give that name, not
11 to us now but to the Inquiry so that further inquiries
12 can be made?
13 A. If necessary.
14 Q. Would that be all right, if you could give
15 that to a member of the Inquiry who I suspect will
16 approach you in due course. I do not want you to give
17 the name in public; I do not want to embarrass that
18 person. You appreciate it would help us a great deal
19 if we were able to discover a bit more. Thank you.
20 Questioned by MR ELIAS
21 MR ELIAS: Mrs Bradley, just one matter, if
22 I may: Dr Donal McDermott, who you saw at Vinny Coyle's
23 house, was at that time the senior doctor working with
24 the Knights of Malta, was he not?
25 A. He was, yes.
1 Q. I think he described himself as the "Chief
2 Medical Officer" for the Knight of Malta?
3 A. He was.
4 Q. Was he with you working through the night at
5 the St. Mary's Centre?
6 A. I cannot remember.
7 Q. You cannot remember at all, can you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. There were doctors there, were there?
10 A. I cannot remember. There may not necessarily
11 always have been doctors there.
12 Q. I understand that, but through the night
13 there would have been, from time to time at least,
14 doctors present?
15 A. Not necessarily during the night.
16 Q. Not at all?
17 A. I cannot remember. There could have been.
18 Q. Can you help about this: through the night
19 from St. Mary's Centre up until 5 or 6 o'clock in the
20 morning when you finished, were any of the patients
21 treated through the early hours of that morning
22 referred to any hospital as far as you remember?
23 A. I cannot remember. My friend Hugh Deehan
24 told me we did take Mr Liddy to the hospital just quite
25 recently that night. I do not remember taking him
1 over. We could have told people to go if they were
2 seriously injured, you know. Most were -- I would say
3 were bruising and cuts and, um, minor as regards
4 needing hospital attention, you know, were too scared
5 to go to the hospital after, they would have considered
6 --
7 Q. I understand that, I understand they were
8 scared to go.
9 Were records kept by you or of anyone else of
10 the people who were treated that morning?
11 A. Unfortunately not.
12 MR ROXBURGH: Could we have AB56.34 on the
13 screen, please? Mrs Bradley, you have with you now
14 I think the original of this list?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the
17 original, please, and to tell the Tribunal whether all
18 the names and addresses are written in the same
19 coloured ink?
20 A. No, the first six are in red ink.
21 Q. The first six are in red ink down to, would
22 that be, down to W McKinney?
23 A. Yeah, he is the last.
24 Q. Are all the others in the same coloured ink
25 or in a different coloured ink?
1 A. No, Joe Friel is in a different coloured ink
2 and Kevin McElhinney.
3 Q. It is one colour from James Wray down to
4 W McKinney and then another colour from H Gilmore down
5 to American cameraman; is that right?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And then a third colour for Joe Friel and
8 Kevin McElhinney?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. It is a long time ago, but do you have any
11 recollection as to how that might have come about?
12 A. Unless somebody gave me pens on the way up to
13 write it. Maybe somebody gave me the first six names
14 and gave me a pen, that is all I can --
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs Bradley. I have no
16 further questions.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Bradley, the Chairman
18 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
19 assist the Inquiry.
20 A. Thank you.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, may I raise one matter in
23 relation to that witness? It is a procedural matter
24 and it is this: although I do not represent the
25 witness, my solicitor Mr Doherty did originally take
1 the statement with some care that you have and his
2 concern is here that if -- and it may apply to other
3 witnesses who are to come -- allegations or suggestions
4 that may indicate that the witness has done something
5 deliberately, for example, omit a name for some
6 ulterior motive are to be put, as we understand it,
7 there ought to be at least some form of warning to the
8 witness in the form of a letter or something to
9 indicate that may be put so she is in a position to
10 deal with such matters. I merely raise it because it
11 does not seem to have happened on that occasion.
12 LORD SAVILLE: That sort of thing was going
13 through my mind, Mr Mansfield. In the best of all
14 possible worlds what you say is right and should be
15 followed, but we have to be fairly practical about
16 this. My colleagues of course also always, we hope,
17 very careful indeed to make sure the witness is not
18 unfairly taken by surprise. At the same time if
19 suggestions that the witness is deliberately being
20 silent, deliberately failing to say something or indeed
21 deliberately trying to falsify matters, if such
22 suggestions are going to be put, then, as we have
23 already said, I think, the normal rule is that that
24 information should be made known, at least to the
25 Tribunal in advance, so that the Tribunal can consider
1 whether in fact there are proper grounds for making any
2 such suggestion.
3 MR MANSFIELD: Please understand it is not
4 intended to be a particular criticism, it is really for
5 the benefit of the future, that is all.
6 LORD SAVILLE: I do follow that, but --
7 MR MANSFIELD: And I understand the
8 difficulty.
9 LORD SAVILLE: There are difficulties where
10 one just really has to take a practical course, bearing
11 in mind all the time that we are not disposed to allow
12 any unfair questioning of witnesses, but if you were
13 going to put every possible adverse suggestion in
14 advance, we would reach an impossible position.
15 For example, take Mr Phillips last week where
16 in fact it was suggested to him by a number of Counsel
17 that in fact his reporting was biased and so on. One
18 can really probably see that coming. We took the view
19 that, subject to the comment I made about successive
20 Counsel questioning, that the questions were within the
21 bounds of fairness to the witness and generally in the
22 interests of justice. I am sure your comments will be
23 noted. We do have to steer a course which does not
24 pick up every single point of criticism that might be
25 made of a witness, while equally being vigilant to
1 ensure that all witnesses are treated fairly.
2 Unfortunately, there is a grey area and we
3 just have to do the best we can. I did not think on
4 this occasion that any questions of Mrs Bradley were
5 unfair to that witness. I think you are right to raise
6 the point and we must all bear in mind that if there is
7 any question of serious sustained criticism of a
8 witness, allegations of hiding the truth or distorting
9 the truth, then the general rule must be that the
10 Tribunal must be notified in advance that it is
11 proposed to do this. The Tribunal will then form a
12 view as to whether or not circumstances are such that
13 it is fair to allow such a line of questioning.
14 MR SAM GILLESPIE, sworn
15 Questioned by MR CLARKE
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Gillespie, you have
17 possibly heard me say this to all the witnesses: I am
18 the Chairman and questions will, in the main, come from
19 the barristers who sit in front of me. Could I ask you
20 to try and remember to keep your face reasonably close
21 to that microphone in front of you so that we can all
22 hear what you have to say.
23 MR CLARKE: Mr Gillespie, do you have with
24 you your statement to this Tribunal signed on 31st May?
25 A. Yes, I have, yes.
1 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
2 the best of your knowledge and belief?
3 A. To the best of my knowledge and belief, yes.
4 Q. Because we have all been able to read it I am
5 not going to take you through the whole of it, but deal
6 with certain parts of it by reference to your
7 photographs which you very kindly provided to this
8 Tribunal.
9 You describe in paragraphs 3 to 5, if we
10 could have those highlighted on the screen, taking a
11 photograph of the main leading section of the march as
12 it neared the top of Westland Street before turning
13 into Lone Moor Road and then staying in front of the
14 main leading section of the march, and recalling a
15 group of people gathered at around a junction between
16 William Street and Little James Street and continuing
17 east along William Street towards barrier 14.
18 Should we understand that, at this stage, you
19 were in front of the march, that is to say that the
20 march had not arrived at the spot where you were?
21 A. Yeah, I was in front of the march, yes.
22 I left the lorry as it was coming down William Street
23 and proceeded on to what used to be the old City Cinema
24 in William Street.
25 Q. If we look at the photographs that you took,
1 we can put them up on the screen. Could we have P911
2 to begin with? I think that is the photograph that you
3 took, is that right?
4 A. Yeah, that is at the top of Westland Street
5 where it joins the Lone Moor Road, yes.
6 Q. The march, as we can see is just about to
7 turn right?
8 A. Yeah, across the Lone Moor Road and down
9 Creggan Street and down William Street.
10 Q. If we turn to 912, I think that is a
11 photograph, is it not, showing people breaking away
12 from the march and coming down the east end of
13 William Street?
14 A. That is correct, yes.
15 Q. The next photograph, can we have P913,
16 I think must have been taken earlier -- before the
17 previous photograph?
18 A. Yeah, that was prior to those people coming
19 down the street. That is the clock, you will notice,
20 20 minutes to 4, the Guildhall.
21 Q. It looks as if it is 3.35, does it not?
22 A. Round about that time, yeah, coming up to 20
23 minutes to 4, yeah, 3.35, okay.
24 Q. If we look at photograph P914, I think that
25 is another photograph obviously taken at the same time?
1 A. Yeah, yes, round about that time, yes.
2 Q. The photograph that we looked at earlier,
3 912: did you turn round, as it were, from where you
4 had been taking those photographs at the barrier and
5 see this group coming towards you; is that what
6 happened, or --
7 A. No, things were relatively quiet at the
8 barrier in William Street at that particular time. As
9 you can see from the previous photograph, there was not
10 a lot of activity. There was very few people there.
11 There was a couple of reporters and I gathered there
12 was a bit of a commotion going on at the corner of
13 Rossville Street and the street directly opposite that
14 intersects William Street -- I forget the name of it --
15 Q. Little James Street?
16 A. Little James Street. There was a bit of
17 stone-throwing going on up there, so I was proceeding
18 back up there and I met these people coming down the
19 road, towards the barrier at William Street, at the
20 City Cinema.
21 Q. If we come on to 915 --
22 A. That was taken at the same time as roughly 20
23 minutes to 4. Round about the time, prior to the group
24 of people, the breakaway group of people. That was at
25 the same time as the photograph that shows the clock.
1 Q. If we look at 916: was that taken --
2 A. The same time, yeah, when things was quite
3 jovial and quiet.
4 Q. 917: taken at the same time?
5 A. Yeah, yeah, everything was quiet there as you
6 were able to get so close, you know.
7 Q. If we then go to 918, this looks to me as if
8 it is a photograph taken at the top of Rossville Street
9 where it intersects with William Street and it is
10 looking towards Little James Street.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall how you came to take this
13 photograph?
14 A. That photograph, I think, was the last -- one
15 of the last photographs taken on that day; that was
16 after the episodes in the Rossville car park and the
17 episodes in the barricade opposite the
18 Rossville Flats. This, I recall, to be perhaps maybe
19 the last photograph taken of the day.
20 Q. When you say "the last photograph taken of
21 the day", that is after you had seen people being taken
22 to ambulances below block 2 of the Rossville Flats?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Could we come, please, to AG36.3, paragraphs
25 7 to 9? You describe there how there came a time where
1 various people, along with stewards, tried to control
2 the breakaway group that you had photographed as it
3 reached the junction with Chamberlain Street and for a
4 short while appeared to do so, but the group soon got
5 beyond their control, the stone-throwing began and the
6 soldiers responded but not immediately and you stood in
7 a doorway on the northern side of William Street; is
8 that right?
9 A. That is correct, yes.
10 Q. You do not appear to have taken any
11 photographs at that stage; is this right?
12 A. Yes, that is quite true, yes.
13 Q. You then describe in paragraph 9 that for
14 whatever reason the time of 4 o'clock sticks in your
15 mind when the stoning began to decrease and the crowd
16 began to retreat along Chamberlain Street, and you also
17 began to make your way closer to the junction with
18 Chamberlain Street?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Do you know what it was that had caused the
21 stoning to begin to decrease?
22 A. Yeah, yeah. I did not -- at the time I did
23 not realise why the crowd had sort of begun to disperse
24 until I got to the point in Chamberlain Street where it
25 joins High Street. The Paratroopers were making their
1 way down High Street, they were hop-scotching the
2 doors, they were coming door by door down High Street,
3 so the people who were standing at the junction of
4 Rossville Street -- sorry, William Street -- and
5 Chamberlain Street were, if you would like, caught in
6 a pincer movement had the soldiers managed to close in
7 on that location, so that is probably why the crowd
8 dispersed.
9 Q. Could we have a look at your map, AG36.14 and
10 could we highlight the position round barrier 14? We
11 can see that High Street is the first street that you
12 reach on the left-hand side as you go along
13 Chamberlain Street from William Street in the direction
14 of the car park of the Rossville Flats.
15 Are you saying that the reason why --
16 A. Sorry, Harvey -- well, Harvey Street, my
17 mistake, Harvey Street.
18 Q. That is the second left. Are you saying that
19 the reason why stoning began to decrease and the crowd
20 began to retreat was because of the presence of
21 soldiers coming down Harvey Street?
22 A. Well, I am assuming that is the reason, if
23 I can just say in my own words what sort of I thought
24 happened.
25 The crowd were stoning the barricade at
1 William Street and of course the stoning was quite
2 heavy and then the crowd in a way began to disperse,
3 you know, you could sense something was, something was
4 afoot.
5 So I hung around as long as I could possibly
6 stay there until I seen the soldiers coming over the
7 barrier at William Street and they were not the sort of
8 the normal rioting, they were sort of a different
9 kettle of fish really.
10 But when I got to Harvey Street --
11 Harvey Street it is -- the soldiers had, were almost
12 three-quarters of the way down Harvey Street and they
13 were coming door by door, door by door as they do in
14 these exercises. That is when I first sort of come to
15 the conclusion that that was the reason why the people,
16 they were perhaps being frightened of caught --
17 surrounded by the ones coming from the barrier and ones
18 coming down Harvey Street.
19 Q. Do you have a recollection of the use of
20 water cannon at barrier 14?
21 A. Well, I cannot remember the water cannon
22 being used. It probably was used, but I cannot say
23 that I can actually remember the water cannon being
24 used.
25 Q. Rubber bullets?
1 A. Yeah, there was, general sort of a riot
2 situation where these things are sorta run-of-the-mill,
3 you know.
4 Q. The reason I ask is that we have had a lot of
5 evidence that the water cannon was used, probably on
6 two occasions together with rubber bullets, and
7 I wonder whether it was that that caused the crowds to
8 decrease at barrier 14 or between barrier 14 and
9 Chamberlain Street?
10 A. No, no. Well, assumptions could be yes, but
11 I think that the crowd begun to decrease from, from the
12 junction of William Street and Chamberlain Street
13 because of the pincer movement by the soldiers coming
14 down Harvey Street which would have entrapped everyone,
15 because you have got to bear in mind that I did not
16 leave that junction until the soldiers in
17 William Street had begun to come across the barrier by
18 the City Cinema, that is when I left.
19 Q. How many people were there around between the
20 barrier and the junction between William Street and
21 Chamberlain Street at the time when the soldiers began
22 to move through the barrier?
23 A. Well, there was -- most of them -- I could
24 say a fair proportion of the crowd had begun then to
25 disperse and just prior to the soldiers coming across,
1 I cannot give you a figure as in numbers how many was
2 there. It is impossible for me to say, but I was --
3 I stayed until, as long as I could possibly stay to see
4 what would develop from the situation. Then I decided
5 I would go as well and when I got to Harvey Street, the
6 soldiers were three-quarters of the way down the street
7 and I stopped to -- I stopped in the bottom of
8 Harvey Street where it joins Eden Place, the middle of
9 the road there, and I turned around to take a
10 photograph of the soldier who was basically, I do not
11 know, maybe 40, 50 feet away from me and that is when
12 I heard the first shot.
13 Q. Pausing there --
14 MR TOOHEY: Can I interrupt for a moment,
15 please? Mr Gillespie to your right, please: when you
16 speak of soldiers coming down Harvey Street in a pincer
17 movement, are you speaking of soldiers who had come
18 down Chamberlain Street and gone into Harvey Street, or
19 soldiers who may have come down Waterloo Street and
20 gone into Harvey Street, or --
21 A. I presume they had been positioned in
22 Waterloo Street because that is the only access, down
23 the hill is from Waterloo Street.
24 MR TOOHEY: Again, are you speaking then of
25 soldiers who, as it were were, moving from east to west
1 in Harvey Street, not the other way?
2 A. They were proceeding from Waterloo Street,
3 down Harvey Street towards Chamberlain Street.
4 MR CLARKE: When you had seen the soldiers
5 come through barrier 14, the barrier at the end of
6 William Street, were you conscious of any army vehicles
7 coming through that barrier at that stage or not?
8 A. No, no, there was no army vehicles had come
9 through at that stage.
10 Q. You vividly described to us how you went down
11 Chamberlain Street and saw these soldiers hop-scotching
12 down Harvey Street from Waterloo Street?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Do you recall what had happened at that stage
15 to the soldiers who had come in on foot through
16 barrier 14; had they come into Chamberlain Street or
17 not, or do you not recall?
18 A. I did not really look back as they approached
19 from barrier 14 to the junction of Chamberlain Street.
20 I stopped -- as I said, I stopped to take a photograph
21 of these soldiers that were almost at the bottom of
22 Harvey Street and as I brought my camera up to take a
23 photograph, that is when I heard the first shot. I, at
24 the time, thought the shot was fired at me because this
25 soldier who was, who was the leading soldier in that
1 group of people, had his rifle at hip height, that is
2 when I heard the first shot that day on Bloody Sunday.
3 Q. Where did the sound of the shot appear to
4 come from?
5 A. It seemed to come from that area of
6 Harvey Street, Harvey Street.
7 Q. Did you actually see any flash of rifle or
8 any recoil of a rifle of any soldier?
9 A. No, no, as I -- I stopped at the bottom of
10 the street and paused and I could see the soldiers
11 coming down, and my camera was hanging on a strap by my
12 side and I ran around, I sort of fumbled to get it up
13 to take a photograph and that is when I heard the
14 first, what I recall to be a shot.
15 Q. How many civilians were there around you at
16 this stage?
17 A. There was not many in the street at that
18 stage, no.
19 Q. Do you mean by that there were not any
20 through the length of Chamberlain Street or there just
21 were not any round at that junction?
22 A. There was not many at that junction at that
23 particular time. Like I say, I stayed at the junction
24 of William Street and Chamberlain Street for as long as
25 I possibly could and I think if I had stayed much
1 longer, I would have been sort of trapped between
2 Chamberlain Street and Harvey Street.
3 Q. You did not take the photograph you were
4 going to take?
5 A. I did not, no.
6 Q. And you ran south down Chamberlain Street,
7 refusing the offer from somebody to let you come into
8 her house and ran towards the Rossville Flats; is that
9 right?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. You have described in your statement how, as
12 you did that, you heard the sound of gunfire which
13 appeared to be close-by, but you have no idea where it
14 was coming from or how many shots were fired; is that
15 right?
16 A. That is when I heard more gunfire, yes, and
17 I proceeded on to the square of Rossville Flats.
18 Q. And you enter the car park and you describe
19 how when you were at about point "D" on your map, you
20 saw somebody lying on the ground at the point marked
21 "C" and took a photograph P920.
22 This is your photograph, is it not?
23 A. This is my photograph, yes.
24 Q. I think the photograph must have been taken
25 quite a bit further into the car park from where your
1 point "D" is?
2 A. Those are approximate references, of course.
3 Q. We can see, can we not, the car park
4 markings?
5 A. You can see the grid for the vehicles in the
6 car park. These are approximate markings.
7 Q. When you came into the car park, as you were
8 running from the mouth of Chamberlain Street to the
9 spot from which you took this photograph, did the group
10 look much the same or did it look different?
11 A. Well, as I rounded the corner from the end of
12 the row of houses in Chamberlain Street which led into
13 the car park, I was greeted by this group of people and
14 I could see someone lying on the ground. I did not
15 know who it was and I did not know what had happened,
16 but I would presume something was amiss here.
17 Q. As you moved in the direction of the spot
18 where you took this photograph, was the man on the
19 right-hand side coming out from the group at that stage
20 or did that only happen when you got to where your
21 photograph was taken from?
22 A. No, the event of the man walking away was
23 shortly after I arrived. I arrived there and I looked
24 to see what was going on, and I could hear the shouting
25 and people screaming and I heard a voice shouting "come
1 on, shoot me, you bastards, I am not armed either", and
2 this guy was waving his hands about like this
3 (indicating).
4 Q. You took this photograph. If we could now
5 have on the screen P921; you also took this
6 photograph.
7 Could we have P741, which is a slightly
8 better version? Do you have any idea what interval of
9 time there was or would have been between these two
10 photographs that you took?
11 A. Well, you are only talking of minutes because
12 this distance this fella walked was not all that
13 great. Maybe -- I do not know how long it would take
14 him to walk the length of that building, but obviously
15 he has not walked the length of that building. A very
16 short space of time.
17 MR TOOHEY: Mr Gillespie, was the army
18 vehicle stationary or moving when you took that
19 photograph?
20 A. This vehicle was stationary. This army
21 vehicle here with the soldier standing beside it was
22 stationary. This soldier to my left in the flats was
23 there -- these people were there when I got there.
24 MR CLARKE: You tell us you had noticed a
25 soldier positioned on the north-eastern end of block 1;
1 is that in the position where we can see a soldier with
2 a gun just round the corner in this photograph?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you had also seen a soldier on the
5 eastern side of the Saracen?
6 A. That is correct, yes.
7 Q. Was that roughly in the position that we can
8 see a soldier at the back of the Saracen in this
9 photograph?
10 A. Yeah, well, he is alongside it. He is
11 alongside the front of the vehicle, is he not, this
12 soldier, by the front of the vehicle here.
13 Q. I am not sure about that.
14 A. Maybe it is the back, I cannot see.
15 Q. I think it is the back. That is this
16 photograph.
17 Do you recall where he was when you first saw
18 him?
19 A. No, I do not recall where he actually was in
20 that, when I first saw him. When I first -- what made
21 me stay there, what made me stay in that position was
22 the response of this person who was shouting and
23 walking towards these soldiers and his words were "come
24 on, shoot me, you bastards, I am not armed either".
25 That is why I stayed there because I wanted to see what
1 was going to happen, and he was shot. I did not know
2 this person at the time and I did not know the person
3 who was lying on the floor at the time; I did not know
4 any of the people around there at the time.
5 Q. Can you help us about the sequence? We have
6 seen these two photographs; concentrating on the second
7 one, P741, which we have on the screen, does this show
8 the position before, at the time or after the man was
9 shot?
10 A. I think this was just as -- after he was
11 shot. I am nearly sure that this photograph was taken
12 just after he was shot because he, he seemed to turn
13 around as away from these soldiers at the corner and he
14 kept his -- his gestures were all the way towards the
15 soldiers with his arms in the air, waving them as
16 though to indicate that he was not -- there should be
17 another photograph, there is another one, is there,
18 no?
19 Q. Showing what?
20 A. Mr Bridge walking with his hands in the air;
21 no?
22 Q. No, I do not think so. What we have is your
23 photograph at 740. We have this photograph. Then
24 741.
25 Did you take another photograph of this
1 scene?
2 A. Perhaps I am mistaken about another
3 photograph taken of this scene. I had a photograph
4 enlarged by the Sunday Times. The Sunday Times took
5 these -- I have not seen these photographs for quite a
6 long time, I have never seen -- I do not have the
7 actual negatives of these photographs, they have all
8 disappeared. But Derek Humphries from the Sunday Times
9 acquired these photographs off me and the quality of
10 the photographs at the time were not all that good
11 because it was quite a, quite a scary situation and you
12 did not have really time to sit there and focus a
13 camera, you just sort of pressed the button and
14 Derek Humphries come to my house afterwards with the
15 photographs -- he heard I had some photographs; how,
16 I do not know.
17 Q. I think we have established that this
18 photograph, P741, in your recollection is immediately
19 after?
20 A. I think this was after he was shot, yes.
21 Q. Bridge had been shot. You had heard a shot;
22 is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. One, just one at this stage, or more?
25 A. Well, I heard a shot, then I seen Bridge grab
1 his leg. I think this was, this was just after Bridge
2 was shot because he has turned towards me and he is, he
3 was sort of in the process of spinning, you know what
4 I mean. He was turning away from what he was walking
5 towards. I am almost sure this was just after he was
6 -- this was after he was shot because I had him in my
7 view piece of the camera at the time.
8 Q. Did you see who had shot him?
9 A. I was actually looking at Bridge through the
10 lens of the camera, you know. I thought that the shot
11 come from the direction of those two fellas there.
12 Q. After you had taken this photograph, did you
13 see anything which enabled you to work out or even
14 guess who it was who had shot at him?
15 A. Not really. At the time I thought the shot
16 come from the soldier by the wall, the soldier standing
17 at the corner, you know. But I kept Bridge in the view
18 finder of my camera all the way where he was walking
19 from where that body was lying up to this point here
20 and I am -- when I heard the shot, I am nearly sure
21 that I pressed the button not long after that, maybe
22 seconds, you know what I mean.
23 Q. Your vision was literally tunnelled --
24 A. On Bridge and his reaction. I was waiting to
25 see what happened to Bridge, if he got close to the
1 soldier, this was my intention.
2 Q. Did you see him fall?
3 A. He did not actually fall, he sort of spun
4 around and grabbed his leg.
5 Q. What was the last you saw of him, then?
6 A. He sort of maybe went down on his -- one knee
7 or whatever. At that stage, there was more shots and
8 I decided my position was a little bit precarious and
9 I decided to vacate that area.
10 Q. You ran to the low wall which we know runs
11 parallel to the middle block; is that right?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Jumped over it on top of somebody who was
14 lying behind it?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. And heard shots coming from behind you. Were
17 you conscious of anyone being behind that wall who
18 appeared to have been injured?
19 A. Not at that time. Not at that time. I was
20 not conscious of anybody being injured, I thought I had
21 jumped on top of somebody and everybody was more or
22 less doing the same thing; everybody was more or less
23 cowering for cover because at that stage it all seemed
24 hell -- all hell seemed to break loose then. There was
25 a lot of gunfire going on there and everyone that was
1 behind that wall was keeping their heads down.
2 Q. What you did, as I understand it, was to make
3 your way or scramble along towards the gap between the
4 middle block and the eastern block and then go down
5 along the alleyway which lies behind Joseph Place to
6 the verge, which is just above Fahan Street; is that
7 right?
8 A. That is right, yes.
9 Q. If we look at P919: this photograph, you
10 tell us, was taken at that stage, that is to say at the
11 time when you had got to that grass verge having gone
12 down the back of Joseph Place; is that right?
13 A. That is correct, yes.
14 Q. So by now Jack Duddy, who we know to have
15 been the body on the ground in the car park, and
16 Michael Bridge had already been shot and you had had to
17 go down the back alleyway of Joseph Place; is that
18 right?
19 A. Well, I was making my way towards -- the
20 further I could get from William Street, the better and
21 I was, like everyone else, just trying to find a way
22 out of there.
23 Q. Were there other people in the alleyways; was
24 it crowded or not?
25 A. It was not crowded. There was people sort of
1 taking cover wherever they could at that time.
2 Q. Did you run down it or walk down it?
3 A. I ran down it, yes. I did not -- I ran down
4 it, but it was not like 100 mile an hour job, sort of
5 getting out of the way, you know what I mean.
6 Q. Somebody has written at the top of this
7 photograph:
8 "The moment of shooting -- note direction of
9 fire from troops, not towards, seen from Free Derry
10 Corner."
11 Is that your handwriting or somebody else's?
12 A. That is not my handwriting.
13 Q. Does it in fact depict the moment of
14 shooting? When you took this photograph, was shooting
15 going on?
16 A. When I got to the end of this junction of
17 Joseph Place and this square at Rossville Street, the
18 lorry, the Free Derry Corner, the lorry that was used
19 in the procession was all parked down there and there
20 was a group of people all standing around. As you can
21 see they have all fallen down on the floor there taking
22 cover.
23 At that particular moment there was a lot of
24 shots appeared to come from what I thought was my left,
25 towards the Derry wall sort of thing, you know. There
1 was a lot of shooting sort of from -- how many shots
2 I cannot recall how many actual shots, but everyone
3 sort of seemed to dive for cover again.
4 Q. Could we have the map back on the screen,
5 AG36.14? At the time that you took this photograph, as
6 I understand it, you were at approximately point "H";
7 is that right?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. You said that at the moment you took it there
10 was a lot of shots that appeared to come from what you
11 thought was your left?
12 A. The sound of the gunfire appeared to come
13 from my left -- appeared to come from my left and
14 everyone who was standing by the corner here, this
15 Free Derry Corner here, and the people who were at the
16 corner of this building where the arrow and "H" is,
17 everyone just seemed to fall over and get their heads
18 down again.
19 Q. Could we maximize this map a little more,
20 I want the bottom half of it?
21 When you say that the shooting appear to come
22 from your left, can you be any more precise about where
23 it appeared to be coming from?
24 A. No, I cannot. I cannot be any more precise,
25 but the sound of the gunfire seemed to be coming from
1 sort of behind and to the left of me which would have,
2 if you want to go for directions, perhaps it comes from
3 the bank or the walls or whatever, I do not know, but
4 it did not appear to be coming from any other
5 direction, I do not know.
6 I cannot be sure where the shots were coming
7 from, but all I know is the shots seemed to be coming
8 from behind me to the left, as I say.
9 Q. Can we go back to paragraphs 25 to 27 on
10 AG36.6? You describe in paragraph 25 how after a
11 period you walked from where you were at spot "H" along
12 the front, the west side of Joseph Place, in the
13 direction of blocks 1 and 2 of the Rossville Flats
14 where you came upon somebody being carried into one of
15 the houses at the end of Joseph Place.
16 Then, at a time when there was still sporadic
17 gunshots, you reached the area of the telephone box,
18 saw blood stains on the ground with blankets nearby and
19 took photographs of people being carried to ambulances
20 from the houses at the end of Joseph Place. Then after
21 a while when shooting stopped and people milled around
22 the Rossville Street area, you took another photograph
23 of people walking down Rossville Street at the position
24 of the rubble barricade.
25 Can I go through the photographs that we have
1 to identify where they may fit in the sequence? Could
2 we have photograph P922? This is not a very clear
3 photograph, but can you work out where it is and what
4 is happening in it?
5 A. That is not very far from the telephone kiosk
6 where there was someone lying on the floor. On the
7 left of the photograph there is the maisonettes of
8 Joseph Place and the high wall behind it, I think, was
9 the section of Rossville Flats, the concrete.
10 Q. Do you mean on the right of the photograph
11 was Joseph Place?
12 A. Yeah, the right of the photograph and the one
13 -- what shows the window, I think, are the buildings
14 of Joseph Place and the darker non-window, but at the
15 back I presume to be what I think is Rossville Flats.
16 They were carrying someone into a house, this is one of
17 the -- again, this is a sort of a hurried sort of
18 thing, this was after the episode that ...
19 Q. Could we have on the screen 922.001: on the
20 back of each of the photographs that we have from you
21 taken on the day there are notes in handwriting. This
22 note says:
23 "People taking cover. Looks like area at end
24 of Joseph Flats corner with main Rossville Flats".
25 Is that your signature on the left?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that your handwriting?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall when you put these notes on the
5 back of the photographs?
6 A. When people from Eversheds first come to me,
7 right.
8 Q. It is not something you did in 1972?
9 A. No, I had not seen these photographs until
10 the -- Eversheds first contacted me.
11 Q. Some of your photographs appear to have ended
12 up at the University of Hull; do you know how they got
13 there?
14 A. I do not know how they got there because this
15 original film that was taken, there was only a couple
16 of shots really that are relevant on that, the whole of
17 the shot -- but I do not know how Derek Humphries from
18 the Sunday Times got to know that I had photographs.
19 I had some photographs developed by a friend of my
20 brother's who has got -- he does a little bit of
21 photography. I did not quite know what was on these
22 photographs, so I asked him to develop them and he did
23 them, not a very good job. Then a couple of days later
24 Derek Humphries from the Sunday Times arrived in my
25 house and -- of course he wanted to know what
1 photographs I had and I told him, and I gave him the
2 photographs and negatives and he enlarged them. The
3 one of the group of people who were at the corner of
4 Rossville Street with the lorry, that is an enlargement
5 of his which he published in the Sunday Times
6 supplement not long after the issue of Bloody Sunday.
7 He also had a couple enlarged and they were
8 quite good. He returned them all to me and I work
9 abroad a lot and then someone -- my father had a knock
10 on the door one day and someone else, reportedly from a
11 newspaper which he at the time thought was the Sunday
12 Times, asking for the photographs again and in his
13 wisdom he gave them to her and we have never seen them
14 since.
15 The ones you are referring to here are ones
16 that my brother -- when I, after I was contacted by
17 Eversheds, my brother fortunately had a couple of
18 copies and these are the old copies that he had, but
19 the actual photograph of Bridge, the enlargement of
20 Bridge being shot, we had to enlarge the photograph of
21 Bridge and there was nothing whatsoever in his hands,
22 it was the issue that I wanted to make at the time.
23 Q. If we could look at the photographs we do
24 have and if we look at 923: I think that is --
25 A. That again is a sort of hazy photograph of
1 people getting carried into the flats.
2 Q. That is Joseph Place, is it?
3 A. Yeah, yeah, around that vicinity. It is
4 Joseph Place, it is the maisonettes, what we call the
5 maisonettes.
6 Q. 924 is, I think, somebody being carried out
7 of the flats?
8 A. Yes, this is someone going to the ambulance,
9 yes. Who that is, I do not know, I do not have a clue.
10 Q. 925: I think that has survived in rather
11 better quality?
12 A. Yes, this is people being taken to the
13 ambulance. There was the odd sporadic gunfire going on
14 there; as you can see the person holding their hands up
15 to ask for cease-fire or whatever the case might be.
16 Q. 926: a similar scene?
17 A. Yeah, a similar scene, yeah. I think that
18 may be the same person getting carried into the
19 ambulance.
20 Q. Should we assume that 927 is the same person,
21 or same activity?
22 A. Same activity, yeah, yeah. I think they were
23 under-exposed.
24 MR TOOHEY: Mr Gillespie, your statement
25 speaks of ambulances in the plural. Did you photograph
1 more than one ambulance --
2 A. I think this person getting carried to this
3 ambulance, I think this was just one photograph,
4 I think. If you can go back to the next one perhaps he
5 can -- or if we go back to the previous one --
6 MR CLARKE: 926?
7 A. Yeah, that is probably the same, yeah.
8 MR TOOHEY: What is your recollection, if you
9 have one: was there just one ambulance that you
10 photographed?
11 A. Yeah, I would say that was one ambulance that
12 I photographed.
13 MR CLARKE: 928 has got a stretcher outside
14 an ambulance; is that the same ambulance or a different
15 one, do you know?
16 A. It seems to be in the same location.
17 I cannot recall if that is the same. It seems to be in
18 the same location, the same vicinity; maybe it is two
19 ambulances, I cannot recall.
20 Q. Could we have a look at 929? This is a
21 photograph. It shows, as we now know, Father Mulvey
22 (who is the man on the right); Father Bradley (on the
23 left), seen in profile walking just beyond the
24 barricade in the direction of some army vehicles
25 further up. I think this is if not the last, one of
1 the last photographs you took on the day; is that
2 right?
3 A. Yeah, yeah, this was sort of after all the
4 shooting had -- well, this was after the bulk of the
5 shooting had occurred and there was sort of confusion
6 and calm and there was, these three police were walking
7 towards the Saracen armoured vehicle which is parked
8 just in front --
9 Q. Did you see what these priests did after you
10 had taken this photograph?
11 A. I cannot recall what happened after I took
12 this photograph.
13 Q. Can we have on the screen 930? There is a
14 photograph plainly taken from a height.
15 Is this a photograph taken by you, and if so,
16 is it a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday?
17 A. This is a photograph I think was taken after
18 Bloody Sunday from the Derry Walls. There was a lot of
19 people milling around the day after Bloody Sunday and
20 this Donney -- representative of -- I forget his second
21 name, but he asked me did I have any other photographs
22 of Bloody Sunday or the location of the
23 Rossville Flats, so I gave him this as a --
24 Q. This was not taken on Saturday,
25 30th January 1972?
1 A. I do not think it was, no, this I think was
2 taken the day afterwards.
3 Q. Presumably the same goes for 931?
4 A. Yeah, that is the same location.
5 Q. It also was taken the next day and not on
6 30th January?
7 A. I think so. I cannot be sure about that,
8 I will just say I cannot recall what --
9 Q. 932; is that looking down Waterloo Street, or
10 is it somewhere else?
11 A. That is looking down Waterloo Street.
12 I think this photograph here was taken round about the
13 time of the photograph with the clock at the bottom of
14 William Street. I think this was prior to the -- or
15 was it? I think this was on the day, but I -- I think
16 this was taken before it all began.
17 Q. Does the same go for 933, which is the next
18 and last one?
19 A. Yeah. I cannot recall. Maybe afterwards,
20 I am not sure, but things were relatively quiet when
21 these two photographs came (inaudible).
22 Q. Could we go, please, to AG36.17? In your
23 statement you refer to this very short statement and
24 you describe it as having been given in a brief fashion
25 to Mr Derek Humphries of the Sunday Times?
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. In fact we think that it is almost certainly
3 a typescript copy of a statement probably taken in
4 manuscript given to a representative of the
5 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. I say that
6 because it is in identical form to many other similar
7 statements taken in similar circumstances and it is not
8 at all in the form of the notes we have seen of quite a
9 number of interviews conducted by the Sunday Times.
10 Do you remember giving a statement to the
11 civil rights people?
12 A. I cannot recall giving a statement to the
13 civil rights people. Perhaps I did, I do not know, but
14 the only people that I can recall -- clearly recall
15 talking to was Derek Humphries and that was the only
16 person.
17 I was puzzled about this myself when I seen
18 the official thing at the bottom "record office and
19 Crown Copyright". When I seen this I was a little
20 bit -- I said to myself (inaudible) where is that
21 coming --
22 Q. That is your signature on the bottom --
23 A. That is my signature on the bottom, yes.
24 Perhaps it is a statement from the Northern Ireland
25 civil rights people, but I cannot recall talking to
1 them. It obviously could very well be, it is my
2 signature and ...
3 Q. It has on it in typescript just below your
4 address, the words "photographs accompany this
5 statement".
6 You recollect, as I understand it, giving the
7 Sunday Times some photographs, but nobody else at the
8 time; is that right?
9 A. These are the only people that I had --
10 Derek Humphries is the only people that took the film
11 from me, and this is a similar statement which appears
12 in the Sunday Times at the time that there was a little
13 bit of a statement in it, so ...
14 Q. You told us you did not attend the
15 Widgery Inquiry because you thought that it would be
16 biased.
17 Am I right in thinking your photographs
18 probably did not reach the Widgery Inquiry as well?
19 A. I do not have a clue if the photographs
20 reached there, I just do not know. I have not got a
21 clue.
22 Q. Can we go to paragraphs 32 on AG36.7: you
23 say that shortly after Bloody Sunday a person that you
24 knew to be a member of the IRA personally asked you for
25 photographs, which you refused to give.
1 When you say "the photographs", what
2 photographs did he ask for; all your photographs or
3 some specific photographs?
4 A. Well, the day after Bloody Sunday this person
5 come to me and said they were collecting up all the
6 films that people had -- they wanted to see the
7 photographs that people had taken the day prior to it
8 and they asked me for the film, and I would not give it
9 to him.
10 Q. Did he say why he wanted them?
11 A. He did not say why he wanted them, I did not
12 ask him why he wanted them. I just would not give him
13 the film for the photographs.
14 Q. Do you know which wing of the IRA he was a
15 member of?
16 A. He was in the Provisional IRA at the time,
17 I think.
18 Q. You say you will not disclose his name?
19 A. No, I will not disclose it, no.
20 Q. Sorry?
21 A. I will not disclose his name.
22 Q. Would you be prepared without disclosing his
23 name publicly to do what a number of other witnesses
24 have done, and to write down what his name is?
25 A. No. I will not write his name down.
1 Q. Why is that?
2 A. Well, just what I said, on the statement:
3 I will not disclose his name.
4 Q. That is just a statement; is there any
5 particular reason?
6 A. No, well, I thought perhaps -- people did not
7 know this man was in the IRA or was a member of the
8 Provisional wing, I believed him to be a member of the
9 Provisional wing of the IRA.
10 Q. You knew him to be according to this
11 paragraph?
12 A. Yes, yes, I had reason to believe that he was
13 a member of the Provisional wing of the IRA.
14 Q. Those are all the questions that I have for
15 the moment, though I may -- the Inquiry may need to
16 return to what appears in paragraphs 32.
17 A. And what is that?
18 Q. The name of the individual.
19 A. Oh, if you like, I will give you this name,
20 but on paper.
21 Q. Could you do that?
22 A. Perhaps, no, we will just leave that. I will
23 keep it as my own statement as it stands. Is it
24 beneficial if you know this person's name?
25 Q. It is beneficial because our task is to
1 discover the whole truth of Bloody Sunday which
2 includes what members of the IRA were or were not doing
3 on that day and only they can tell us?
4 A. (Pause)
5 (Name written down and handed)
6 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know whether
7 this person is still living in Derry?
8 A. I do not have a clue. I have not seen that
9 man from that day to this.
10 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
11 LORD GIFFORD: I want to ask about one area
12 of your evidence -- my name is Anthony Gifford and
13 I appear for the family of James Wray -- it is when you
14 are at the junction of Chamberlain Street and
15 Harvey Street and you see the Paratroopers coming down
16 Harvey Street, and you are about to take a photograph
17 and you hear a shot.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you at any time around that time see a
20 camera crew?
21 A. In the Harvey Street.
22 Q. In the area of the junction of Harvey Street
23 or in Harvey Street itself?
24 A. No, there was -- as far as I can recollect
25 there was only one other -- I stopped and there was,
1 there was only another one person standing there at
2 that particular moment in time and that was me, and
3 I stopped to take a photograph of these soldiers who
4 were approaching down Harvey Street towards
5 Chamberlain Street.
6 Q. You yourself were at the junction of those
7 two roads?
8 A. It is a crossroads, where you get
9 Harvey Street and you get Chamberlain Street and you
10 get Eden Place, which runs across into the Rossville
11 car park.
12 Q. And you were in the centre of those streets?
13 A. I stopped there in the junction of that and
14 took the photograph. All I was -- I did not take a
15 photograph. I was bringing my camera up to take a
16 photograph of the soldiers who were three-quarters of
17 the way down Harvey Street and that is -- I did not
18 take the photograph because I heard a shot.
19 Q. You have no doubt that is the first gunshot
20 you heard on that day?
21 A. As far as I can recall, that is the first
22 gunshot I heard on that day. There was a normal riot
23 situation prior to that where you had the people in
24 Rossville Street -- William Street having this battle
25 with the soldiers at the barricade by the City Cinema.
1 Q. You then turned and ran down
2 Chamberlain Street?
3 A. Yes, I had decided I would get out of there.
4 Q. At the run?
5 A. I ran, I ran down the street and an old lady
6 opened -- well, the doorway was open and as I, I was
7 sort of staying close to the walls of the houses on the
8 right-hand side as I went across and the old lady --
9 I do not know, I say "old", it might be derogatory to
10 say that -- she asked me to come in out of the way and
11 I says "no" because I thought if I went in there and
12 the soldiers were coming in behind me, they would come
13 in there also, so all I wanted to do was get away.
14 Q. At that time as you ran as you were with the
15 lady, you heard more gunshots?
16 A. As I was proceeding from -- along
17 Chamberlain Street towards the car park of
18 Rossville Flats, there was shots -- there was gunfire
19 then. When I got then to the car park I see the group
20 of people surrounding Mr Duddy.
21 Q. Stop there: a number of single high velocity
22 gunshots?
23 A. Yes, it was single sort of -- it was not like
24 you see in the movies at all, you know.
25 Q. Not automatic shots?
1 A. Yeah, it was single shots, but not, not one,
2 but there was --
3 Q. Quite a lot of them?
4 A. Perhaps, I should retract when I say that,
5 I cannot say whether it was automatic gunfire or single
6 shots, but the shots, pauses between them, I cannot
7 give you the technical term for it.
8 Q. You are doing just best, thank you very
9 much.
10 Questioned by MR KENNEDY
11 MR KENNEDY: My name is Kennedy and I act for
12 Michael Bridge, Mr Kennedy. I want to take you back to
13 the two photographs that you took.
14 You have described how your attention was
15 focused and your view finder was focused on
16 Michael Bridge as he was shot?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you indicated how your attention was on
19 him from prior to the first photograph you took when he
20 left the crowd and his arms waving in a "come on"
21 fashion. Can you say whether he had anything in either
22 of his hands at any time?
23 A. Michael Bridge -- I did not know this was
24 Michael Bridge at the time, I only knew this was
25 Michael Bridge after the event. Michael Bridge --
1 I had that photograph enlarged by the Sunday Times, the
2 original photograph of that was enlarged by the Sunday
3 Times and you could see the man's fingernails and there
4 was nothing in his hands.
5 Q. I am talking about -- the short period of
6 time when you followed him from when he was leaving the
7 group?
8 A. When I followed him, the gesture of his hand
9 was that like, come and --
10 Q. Thank you, do you know what happened the
11 photographs that you enlarged?
12 A. They were sent back from the Sunday Times to
13 my parents' house in Broadway and I work abroad a lot,
14 and I have not lived in Derry since 1969.
15 Q. You do not know what happened them?
16 A. Someone come and collected them --
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Kennedy, Mr Gillespie in
18 his statement has said what his recollection is about
19 the photographs. He has also said something to the
20 same effect to Mr Clarke. I am not sure we are going
21 to get much further, are we?
22 MR KENNEDY: I accept that, sir. Thank you.
23 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
24 MR GLASGOW: Mr Gillespie, my name is Glasgow
25 and I represent a lot of the soldiers. I have a few
1 questions for you, please.
2 Could we look at the first page of your
3 statement which we have at AG36.2, paragraph 2? So you
4 can see the point, just a question of your knowledge of
5 the involvement of the Paratroop Regiment.
6 Do you think it is possible, Mr Gillespie, it
7 is something that you heard spoken of at about the time
8 of Bloody Sunday or do you have a clear recollection of
9 seeing it in the newspaper?
10 A. I have a clear recollection of reading this
11 in a newspaper. There was a lot of -- I read this
12 somewhere that that was ...
13 Q. Do you have a clear recollection of reading
14 it before Bloody Sunday?
15 A. Before, yeah. Again there was a lot of
16 apprehension, there was a lot of -- this particular
17 episode had generated a lot of attention because the
18 statement that the Paratroopers had sort of made, the
19 statement in the press that the Paratroopers had
20 cleaned up Belfast and they are now coming to clean up
21 Derry.
22 Q. My only question, Mr Gillespie, and in
23 fairness to you I think you did not make your
24 statement, you did not speak to Eversheds until June or
25 July of this year?
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. You are looking back on it, nearly 30 years
3 back at the time?
4 A. Correct, yes.
5 Q. Do you think it is possible what was spoken
6 about about the Parachute Regiment and the feelings
7 about them has assumed such an importance in your mind
8 that you now honestly believe it was in the newspapers,
9 or can you in your mind's eye actually see a newspaper
10 article today?
11 A. In my mind's eye I cannot see a newspaper
12 article today, but I know I can recall this particular
13 event generating a lot of apprehension about the
14 outcome.
15 Q. I am not challenging that at all,
16 Mr Gillespie, I am just wondering whether it is
17 possible that the emotion and the feeling that was
18 generated at about the time of Bloody Sunday has led
19 you to believe that perhaps it was even in the
20 newspapers when it was not?
21 A. No, it has not led me to believe that.
22 Q. It has not, very well.
23 A. I believe that I read this somewhere prior.
24 Q. I am not challenging the honesty of your
25 belief, just the accuracy of whether you are right
1 about it.
2 Going over the page, if we may, to AG36.3.
3 Could I take you to the last two paragraphs on this
4 page, paragraphs 12 and 13? Here I am asking you about
5 the time when the Paratroopers came through barrier 14;
6 you recall what we are referring to as barrier 14?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In William Street?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You say there was a fair bit of noise as the
11 Paras came through the barrier.
12 Am I right in thinking that there was not at
13 that time very much noise around the barrier itself,
14 but that there was noise coming from elsewhere; does
15 that fit with your recollection?
16 A. When I say there was a fair bit of noise as
17 the Paras come through, I meant they were pulling the
18 barriers to one side and the scrambling, the activity
19 of the barrier I was referring to there.
20 Q. Did you hear any noise coming from the area
21 generally --
22 A. Oh, yeah, there was -- again there was quite
23 a few people still, not a lot of people but there was
24 quite a lot of people there at the junction of
25 Chamberlain Street and Rossville Street.
1 Q. And your recollection as you ran away, wholly
2 understandably, from where you were is that you started
3 off running down Chamberlain Street towards the
4 Rossville Flats?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And you were fearful and you assumed that the
7 soldiers whom you had seen coming through the barrier
8 were probably running down behind you?
9 A. Yes, yes. I assumed that they were making in
10 that direction also.
11 Q. I am not criticising, I make it plain and
12 I am certainly not doubting your honesty, but do you
13 think it is possible that when you recall soldiers
14 hop-scotching along from doorway to doorway that that
15 was something you saw in Chamberlain Street rather than
16 Harvey Street?
17 A. No, this was Harvey Street.
18 Q. You definitely believe --
19 A. It was definitely Harvey Street.
20 Q. When the soldiers came through the barrier
21 and the barrier is pulled aside and they begin running
22 through. They were completely out in the open in quite
23 a long line spread out along William Street, were they
24 not?
25 A. The first two or three soldiers that I had
1 seen coming through come through. They did not pull
2 the barrier right across, they moved it --
3 Q. Open the gap?
4 A. They opened the gap.
5 Q. And the soldiers ran through, roughly in the
6 middle of the road, one after another?
7 A. No, they come through the side by the side of
8 the shops.
9 Q. The northern pavement, towards the northern
10 pavement?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And ran diagonally across the road --
13 A. They come in a sort of single file through
14 there and --
15 Q. Completely openly?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Standing out in the open?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There came a stage a few moments later --
20 whether you be right about Harvey Street or
21 Chamberlain Street -- there did come a stage when you
22 saw soldiers, not running out in the open, with you in
23 your words "hop-scotching" from doorway to doorway,
24 running from position of cover to position of cover; do
25 you remember that?
1 A. Yeah, that is in Harvey Street.
2 Q. I entirely accept your honesty. You will
3 understand the job I have to do. I am suggesting you
4 may be mistaken about that. I can tell you why,
5 because the Tribunal has seen a video film, one of the
6 news films of this sort of activity going on in
7 Chamberlain Street.
8 You are clear in your recollection that you
9 think it was Harvey Street?
10 A. Yes. Let me go back to the point of
11 reference of Harvey Street. I believe in my heart and
12 soul and the reason why the people began to disperse so
13 rapidly, in other words the stone-throwing and
14 everything else come to a close so quickly is that
15 someone had seen these soldiers perhaps coming down
16 Harvey Street in a pincer movement to close in
17 (indicating).
18 Q. I will not go on about that, I accept the
19 honesty of what you have said. The matter I would like
20 you to help the Tribunal about is this: you saw
21 soldiers running in the open as they came through the
22 barrier?
23 A. As they come through the barrier in single
24 file, they come across. Then I vacated the premises,
25 I left.
1 Q. A few moments later you see soldiers, whether
2 the same individuals or not, perhaps we will never
3 know, but you see some soldiers taking cover and
4 changing places with one another as they sequentially
5 "hop-scotch", in your words, taking cover from doorway
6 to doorway?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Did you see or hear anything that in your
9 mind explained why it was that at one minute soldiers
10 were running about in the open diagonally across an
11 open road, and the next moment you became aware of
12 their movements they were hop-scotching from cover
13 position to cover position.
14 Did you hear anything or see anything that
15 would explain that different behaviour on the part of
16 those soldiers?
17 A. No, but they were two completely different
18 groups. The group of soldiers on William Street were
19 completely different