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Hearing Transcript
1 Monday, 17th September 2001
2 (9.45 am)
3 MS ATTRACTA BRADLEY, sworn
4 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
5 LORD SAVILLE: Ms Bradley, if you look to
6 your right, I say this to all the witnesses. I am the
7 Chairman of the Inquiry. The questions will in the
8 main come from the barristers who sit in front of me.
9 All I would ask you to do is keep fairly close to that
10 microphone in front of you and then we can all hear
11 what you have to say.
12 MR ROXBURGH: Mrs Bradley, do you have with
13 you a copy of the statement that you made to this
14 Inquiry on 16th May this year, of which we have the
15 first page on the screen at AB56.1?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
18 the best of your knowledge and belief?
19 A. They are.
20 Q. Can we move straight, please, to paragraphs
21 17 to 19 of the statement at page AB56.3? You are
22 dealing in these paragraphs with attending to some
23 injured patients, your recollection of attending to
24 system injured parents in what you were subsequently
25 told was Vinny Coyle's house.
1 In paragraph 18, three lines from the end,
2 you say:
3 "I attended to a young man known as 'Red
4 Mickey'. He had this nickname as he had red hair. His
5 proper name is Michael Doherty. I must have known him
6 at the time. He had a gunshot wound high up his leg
7 near his backside."
8 Could you explain, please, what you mean when
9 you say you must have known Mr Doherty at the time?
10 A. Um, I think he was known around the town as
11 "Red Mickey" because he had red hair and somebody says
12 that is "Red Mickey", it is Mickey Doherty, "Red
13 Mickey", that is all. I would not have known him
14 personally.
15 Q. Did you, at any stage, know him personally
16 either at Bloody Sunday or after?
17 A. No, afterwards I would have known a neighbour
18 who lived by me years later when I was married, he
19 would have been a friend of his, so that is how I would
20 have remembered his name over the years. But I -- you
21 know, I think he worked on the markets.
22 Q. When you say the market, do you mean the
23 market that used to be where the Rossville Flats car
24 park was later or some other market?
25 A. I cannot remember where the market was. Was
1 it William Street? I cannot remember.
2 Q. In William Street, you think?
3 A. I think there was a market.
4 Q. Do you have a recollection of this man as
5 someone that you knew by sight?
6 A. By sight.
7 Q. Can you remember how old he was?
8 A. No, he was older than myself anyway, you
9 know.
10 Q. Can you remember whether he was in his
11 twenties or thirties or forties, or older or younger?
12 A. If I was in my twenties, he probably would
13 have been thirties or maybe late twenties.
14 Q. Do you know where he lived?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How did you know the reason for his nickname?
17 A. He had red hair and I think people called him
18 "Red Mickey". It must have been bright red hair.
19 I have not seen him in years, so I cannot remember if
20 he still has bright red hair, but ....
21 Q. Did someone tell you that the reason for his
22 nickname was that his hair was red or did you just
23 assume that?
24 A. Somebody must have told me.
25 Q. Did he tell you on Bloody Sunday how he had
1 come by his injury?
2 A. I cannot remember.
3 Q. Would you have asked him?
4 A. I possibly would have, but it is so long ago.
5 Q. Has anyone told you subsequently how he came
6 to be injured that day?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you remember whether his injury was in
9 the left leg or the right?
10 A. I cannot, sorry.
11 Q. Did he have any other injuries, so far as you
12 can recall, apart from the injury in his leg?
13 A. I cannot recall any other injuries.
14 Q. Can you remember what happened to him after
15 you had treated him?
16 A. No. I know he did not want to go to
17 Altnagelvin, like most of the people at that particular
18 time.
19 Q. Do you know whether he was taken to any
20 hospital or whether he just went home, or what?
21 A. He possibly went to Altnagelvin, now he, I do
22 not know -- we did not take him in the ambulance,
23 whether the Altnagelvin ambulance took him, I do not
24 know. I just remember a lot of chaos in that house and
25 a lot of, a lot of people and a lot of shouting and
1 roaring and a lot of panic.
2 Q. Do you know where he is now?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever heard anyone talk about where
5 he is now?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When did you last see him?
8 A. Years and years ago.
9 Q. Do you remember how tall or short he was?
10 A. He was quite tall, I am very small, so it
11 would not take much to be taller than me, but I know he
12 was quite tall.
13 Q. Are you able to give an estimate in feet and
14 inches as to how tall he was or is that too difficult?
15 A. I am five-foot, so he must have been nearer
16 six or just under it.
17 Q. There is some evidence that he was tall with
18 blond hair; could that be right?
19 A. I just remember red hair, I do not remember
20 blond hair.
21 Q. Presumably you remember that at the time of
22 Bloody Sunday there were two wings of the IRA, the
23 Provisionals and the Officials.
24 Did you ever hear the Provos remembered to as
25 the "green IRA"?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or the Officials referred to as the "red
3 IRA"?
4 A. No, I just would have heard the Provos or the
5 Stickies.
6 Q. Is it possible that one of the reasons he was
7 known as "Red Mickey" was that he was involved with the
8 Official IRA as far as you know?
9 A. I never considered that, I just thought he
10 had red hair, he was called "Red Mickey".
11 Q. In paragraph 19 you say that the injured
12 patients at Vinny Coyle's house did not want to go to
13 Altnagelvin Hospital and instead asked to be taken to
14 Letterkenny.
15 So far as you know, Mrs Bradley, was any of
16 them in fact taken to Letterkenny?
17 A. Not as far as I know.
18 Q. If we move on, please, to paragraph 28 on
19 AB56.4, you refer to the man who was bruised from head
20 to toe and you say that you were appalled at the extent
21 of his injuries and had since been informed that his
22 name is Barry Liddy.
23 Can you recall in any more detail the nature
24 of his injuries?
25 A. I just remember he was bruised everywhere as
1 though he was hit; he had bruises on most of his body.
2 It is a long time ago -- sorry.
3 Q. Can you remember any part of his body in
4 particular being where the injuries were, or not?
5 A. I would be telling a lie if I could tell you
6 definitely, I cannot. I did not write it down at the
7 time and I have treated so many people over the years
8 that --
9 Q. Do you remember whether he told you what had
10 happened to him?
11 A. He told me he was beaten up, I think in the
12 courtyard.
13 Q. Did he tell you anything more than that or
14 simply he had been beaten up at Fort George?
15 A. That is all I remember.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs Bradley, those are
17 all my questions.
18 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
19 MR CLARKE: Mrs Bradley, my name is Clarke
20 and I appear on behalf of a number of the soldiers.
21 Do you remember at the end of that day -- and
22 I appreciate it is a very long one for you -- you
23 carried on working until six in the morning, did you
24 not, at St. Mary's in the Creggan?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. Was there a time when Leo Day asked you to
2 write down your recollections of what had happened?
3 A. I cannot remember writing down the
4 recollections. I know Hugh Deehan, who was with me
5 that day, wrote down on behalf of both of us. I think
6 I went straight to work. I was working as a student
7 nurse in Altnagelvin at the time, so therefore I would
8 have went straight to work and I would not have been
9 able to attend as many of the meetings as some of the
10 others would have been able to.
11 Q. A few days later, do you remember you were
12 all asked to write down your statements by Leo Day?
13 A. I do not remember, but I know Hugh Deehan
14 says he did.
15 Q. You do not --
16 A. I remember other people were asked to write
17 them down. I think I might not have been at that
18 meeting, maybe I did, but I just cannot remember.
19 Q. Because there did come a time when you wrote
20 a list, did there not?
21 A. A list, the list of names?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. That was a list I wrote on the day.
24 Q. Do you remember writing that?
25 A. I do remember writing that, yeah.
1 Q. Where did you write that?
2 A. I must have -- it must have been a list that
3 people told me the name, you know, as I was walking
4 from the Bogside up to Creggan.
5 Q. You are sure you did not write it later,
6 Mrs Bradley?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was it written while you were walking?
9 A. It was written either in the Bog or on the
10 way up. It was not written afterwards, no.
11 Q. Do you know why you wrote it?
12 A. People were just saying, did you hear -- just
13 such a dramatic thing to be told somebody had been shot
14 dead, that I -- I tend to scribble a lot, so
15 I scribbled names down and somebody would say somebody
16 else has been shot and I wrote the names down.
17 Q. Can we have a look at AB56.34, please? Is
18 that your handwriting, Mrs Bradley?
19 A. It is, yeah.
20 Q. If I could just decipher and if you could
21 contradict me if I am wrong. If we go down the names:
22 James Wray; P Doherty; M Kelly?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. B McGuigan?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. J Duddy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. W McKinney?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. H Gilmore?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. John Young?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. W Gillespie?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. G Donaghy?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. G McKinney?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. William Nash?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Michael McDaid?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Eddie McLaughlin?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. American cameraman?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Joe Friel?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Kevin McElhinney?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On that piece of paper you have written down,
3 if I could put this way, the vast majority of their
4 addresses; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You, today, have a very sketchy recollection
7 of 30th January 1972?
8 A. Uh-huh, unfortunately.
9 Q. How did you go about trying to remember
10 things when the Eversheds solicitor came to speak with
11 you about making a statement?
12 A. There are things that I did remember and
13 there was times I was getting flashbacks. Even last
14 night I had another flashback as I was talking to
15 somebody and I have added (inaudible) that to the end
16 of my statement. There are certain things I do
17 remember on that day and it is very sketchy,
18 whereabouts I was or what I was doing. I would love to
19 be hypnotised so that I would know.
20 Q. Mrs Bradley, do you remember where you got
21 this list from or where this list was retrieved from so
22 that you could look at it?
23 A. I had it at home, I had it with other
24 momentoes, you know, in a box and it was when I was
25 called forward I told my solicitor that I had --
1 I actually wrote a wee list that day and he says, "can
2 I see it?", so I handed it to him.
3 Q. Could you look at your statement AB56.3,
4 paragraph 17:
5 "I also have a memory of attending to some
6 injured patients in a house. I was subsequently told
7 that it was Vinny Coyle's house. Unfortunately, by
8 this time, I believe that I must have been suffering
9 from some kind of shock at the sight of so many injured
10 people. The only person I recognised in the Coyle's
11 house was Dr McDermott."
12 A. I will tell you how I know it was
13 Vinny Coyle's house: I was at the gym a few years ago
14 and I remember being in a house, a few houses and I was
15 -- Vinny Coyle's son came over to me and he says,
16 "I remember you on Bloody Sunday" and I says, "I am
17 glad you do because I do not". He said, "you were in
18 our house" and he told me I was in a state of shock
19 because there was so many injured about, that I was
20 going from one to the other and I must have had a blank
21 then.
22 Q. Could you make sure that the stenographer to
23 your right can hear everything you say? If you could
24 speak a little slower.
25 A. Will I repeat that?
1 Q. That is fine. When you were treating people,
2 do you remember Dr McDermott at Vinny Coyle's?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Do you remember treating anyone other than
5 Mickey Doherty?
6 A. I know I did treat others, but I do not
7 remember. I only assume that it must not have been
8 gunshot wounds or I would have remembered.
9 Q. Do you remember treating, for example,
10 Patsy O'Donnell?
11 A. The name does not ring a bell.
12 Q. Patsy O'Donnell was shot in the shoulder in
13 Glenfada Park?
14 A. I may have done, but I cannot remember.
15 Q. Can I show you why I suggest that: could we
16 have a look at AF14, the bottom half of the page? This
17 is a document that was attached to the statement of
18 Mr Feeney, Bernard Feeney; do you remember he was a
19 Knight of Malta? There is a reference, I think it is a
20 Sunday Times document. This is a resume of their
21 interviews, not necessarily with you, but with Knights
22 of Malta about what different people did.
23 You were with Hugh Deehan in the ambulance?
24 A. I was, yes.
25 Q. You treated Michael Quinn with a face injury?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. And then treated Patsy O'Donnell probably
3 (not Connell) and persuaded him to go to Altnagelvin?
4 A. I may have done, I just --
5 Q. No recollection of that?
6 A. No, sorry.
7 Q. And then finally: "Treated gunshot wound in
8 leg which not taken to hospital (who?)".
9 That is obviously the journalist jotting down
10 what somebody has told him or her.
11 Do you have any recollection of the middle
12 passage?
13 A. I do not. I know I did give an interview, my
14 husband told me to the Sunday -- one Sunday paper and
15 maybe they would have a record of what I says, it would
16 be --
17 Q. You have no recollection?
18 A. No, I am sorry.
19 Q. You therefore, is it fair to say -- can we go
20 back to AB56.34, your list -- you, on the day, when you
21 are treating them, had no idea of anyone's name apart
22 from Mickey Doherty?
23 A. No, those were names that people gave me as
24 I was --
25 Q. Could you help as to how they gave them to
1 you? Did people come up to you and volunteer them or
2 did you collect them?
3 A. Possibly somebody walking past says, "did you
4 hear Michael Kelly was killed?", and I would have kept
5 -- wrote it down, just wrote it down on a piece of
6 paper and I says, "where did he live? 9 Dunmore", so I
7 would have wrote it down.
8 Q. You are sure you did not sit down several
9 hours later and write this down?
10 A. I am a hundred per cent positive.
11 Q. Is that list really, with the straight
12 left-hand margin, is that written standing up in the
13 street taking names?
14 A. As I would have stopped, I would have stopped
15 somewhere and wrote it, I would never write, could not
16 write walking, I would have had to have leaned against
17 something.
18 Q. But the addresses as well?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Did you put the addresses down as you got the
21 names?
22 A. I must have done.
23 Q. You did not know those addresses, did you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you did not actually know the names of
1 the people directly, you got them from other people?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. You must have?
4 A. I must have, yeah.
5 Q. Do you remember any of the people who gave
6 you that information?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No recollection at all?
9 A. No -- it is like a blank from I was in
10 a house treating people until I was walking halfway up
11 Broadway. My husband lived in Broadway, but I did not
12 go to his house that day, I must have went straight up
13 to this school, St Mary's School.
14 Q. If you kept this list, it was obviously
15 something you felt was of importance?
16 A. Yeah, those people who were killed, people
17 says to me so and so's dead and I must have wrote it
18 down. You know, I do not remember sitting in
19 a building or sitting anywhere writing down the list of
20 names.
21 Q. Were you choosing dead and wounded, or what
22 was your criteria?
23 A. I thought it was dead.
24 Q. You thought it was dead?
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. I wonder if you can help who Eddie McLaughlin
2 is?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. No idea?
5 A. I had not looked at the list from that day
6 until I showed it to my solicitor. I just knew it was
7 there, I did not know who that was.
8 Q. Do you have the original there with you?
9 A. No. (Handed).
10 Q. In the days following you must have heard the
11 names of all those who had died?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Did you not compare it with your list?
14 A. I cannot remember. I may have done, I cannot
15 remember.
16 Q. Did you ever make any inquiries of your
17 husband to be or anyone: what happened to Eddie
18 McLaughlin?
19 A. No, I did not, I did not.
20 Q. Do you know now?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Because you were only writing down --
23 A. What people told me.
24 Q. And it was sound information, was it not?
25 A. -- it seemed to be at the time, but there was
1 a lot of --
2 Q. Go on.
3 A. There was a lot of rumours, people would
4 say, "did you hear so and so was killed? --
5 Q. That is why I want you to help, if you can,
6 Mrs Bradley. Obviously if you cannot, it is no
7 question of pressing you. Generally speaking, the
8 first dozen names are very reliable, are they not;
9 there is no incorrect information?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Because there are an awful lot of rumours
12 flying around at that early stage, were there not?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. An awful lot. You were taking down people's
15 addresses as well as their names on the list?
16 A. You see, I work as a nurse in Altnagelvin and
17 I would be used to writing names and addresses, I used
18 to write names -- it would have been automatic -- where
19 do they live, you know, in case somebody asks me
20 afterwards.
21 Q. Why is it then, do you know, in your own mind
22 that Eddie McLaughlin does not have an address?
23 A. Or Michael McDaid; I do not know.
24 Q. Or Michael McDaid?
25 A. I do not know, I cannot --
1 Q. What about "American cameraman", do you know
2 where that came from?
3 A. Somebody must have says to me there is an
4 American cameraman dead.
5 Q. As far as you remember that was a death not a
6 wound?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. But these are both wounded and deceased, are
9 they not, the list when you take it down?
10 A. Yeah, I honestly cannot remember. I would
11 love to be able to help you, but ...
12 Q. I want you to help the Tribunal if you can
13 remember: why is it that you did not put Mickey
14 Doherty's name on this list?
15 A. I do not know.
16 Q. He is the one name you did know?
17 A. Yeah. I must have been trying to write the
18 dead people. It was 30 years ago, it is very hard to
19 remember something --
20 Q. Mrs Bradley, forgive me if I am pressing you,
21 the suggestion that may be made in very strong terms is
22 that Mickey Doherty was a gunman who shot a soldier?
23 A. I never heard that.
24 Q. Have you ever heard that before?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Never?
2 A. A gunman that shot a soldier? No.
3 Q. And that the shot that he fired towards
4 Barrack Street -- you know where I mean by
5 Barrack Street?
6 A. Somewhere up near the walls, is it?
7 Q. Went through a flak jacket, straight across a
8 soldier's chest?
9 A. I never heard that.
10 Q. You never heard that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Has anyone in the last 30 years approached
13 you in any way to be a little bit circumspect, a little
14 bit quiet, about Red Mickey Doherty?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Never?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you make your list, why is he not at the
19 top of the list, he is the first name that you know?
20 A. All I can assume that these were people that
21 I was told was dead, whereas Mickey Doherty was
22 injured, that is all I can assume. I cannot think of
23 any other reason I would have -- I did not do it
24 deliberately or anything.
25 Q. Do you remember, therefore, on that day
1 drawing distinctions between the wounded and the dead?
2 A. I just vaguely remember writing the dead down
3 that I thought were dead.
4 Q. Your best recollection and understanding at
5 the time was that there were 17 people dead?
6 A. Uh-huh. That was within me leaving the
7 Bogside and walking up towards the Creggan.
8 Q. When everyone was talking of 13, do you
9 remember going to your list and saying "I have got a
10 list of 17 dead"?
11 A. I possibly did that at the time. My memory
12 is not great, I am really sorry.
13 Q. When you originally attended, you were on
14 duty in the ambulance; you remember that?
15 A. I remember being in the ambulance on duty.
16 Q. And you were summoned by radio?
17 A. That is the bit I cannot remember.
18 I remember hearing voices come -- an English voice
19 coming over a radio saying "there were shots fired",
20 something about Waterloo Street -- either in the
21 vicinity of Waterloo Street -- Waterloo Street was
22 mentioned. I do not know at that minute whether we
23 decided to go straight down the town. We did not
24 realise anything was happening or whether the car came
25 up with Michael Quinn on board, I cannot remember --
1 Q. No independent recollection?
2 A. No. I admire people who have great
3 recollection, but I do not.
4 Q. Do you remember, Mrs Bradley whether and how
5 many addresses there were where it was pre-arranged
6 that people would be taken if they were injured?
7 A. We did not really expect anybody to be
8 injured that day.
9 Q. Really?
10 A. We did not, no.
11 Q. Come on, the ambulance does not always come
12 out, does it? Leo Day was a bit worried about the
13 ambulance being used, was he not?
14 A. We kept the ambulance -- he wanted the
15 ambulance kept out of the way in case there would be --
16 Q. In case it provoked trouble?
17 A. In case people thought, you know, we were
18 expecting trouble.
19 Q. But you were out there in some force as
20 Knights of Malta, were you not?
21 A. I think most people were out because it was a
22 civil rights march and they wanted to be out there.
23 There was a big crowd there, therefore we were asked to
24 be there. And it was a joyful day, it was great fun,
25 it was a beautiful sunny day and everyone was in great
1 form. It was not a day expected there would be
2 trouble.
3 Q. Not even a little riot?
4 A. I did not honestly expect there would be a
5 riot that day. There was so many people, I thought,
6 and there was people went on that march that day that
7 would never have went before.
8 Q. Because you were on call in the ambulance
9 ready for problems, were you not?
10 A. That would be normal with any Knights of
11 Malta, should we have been at a football match or at a
12 concert or anywhere, we would be on call, we would be
13 ready to go.
14 Q. Do you remember an area called "Candy
15 Corner"?
16 A. I do, yes.
17 Q. Was not that one of the first aid posts that
18 was going to be used?
19 A. That was a first aid post that I remember we
20 used all during the Troubles. I do not remember
21 specifically that we had that name for that on that
22 day.
23 Q. So "Candy Corner" was one of the recognised
24 what, Knights first aid posts or just a general first
25 aid post if somebody got injured?
1 A. I would not have been very high up in the
2 Order of Malta, but I remember I worked in it as a
3 member of the Knights of Malta. I do not know who
4 owned it, but we did open a post there. There were
5 other people working there who were not Knights of
6 Malta.
7 Q. What other posts were there in the Bogside
8 and the Creggan?
9 A. Early on in the Troubles there would have
10 been one near the Bogside Inn and then at St. Mary's
11 School.
12 Q. Somebody's private house near the Bogside
13 Inn?
14 A. I honestly cannot remember.
15 Q. Can you remember how and why you went to
16 Vinny Coyle's?
17 A. Somebody must have pulled us there. That is
18 what happened, somebody must have come over and says
19 you are needed in this house or you are needed here.
20 Q. What about Mrs Shiels' house, do you remember
21 that as being a place that was recognised as a place
22 where people might be taken in Columbcille Court,
23 Ma Shiels?
24 A. It is ringing a bell, you know.
25 Q. It is not ringing any bells?
1 A. It is ringing a bell the name, yeah, it is.
2 Q. There were several --
3 A. Raymond Rogan's house was another house
4 I would have attended people in.
5 Q. Say the name again?
6 A. Raymond Rogan; I remember that name, you
7 know.
8 Q. There were certainly about half a dozen
9 recognised addresses if somebody was injured?
10 A. No, I think it is just when somebody was
11 injured they were pulled into these houses and they
12 just opened the doors and let the people in. I do not
13 think there were recognised houses that people had to
14 go to if people were injured. I think it just
15 happened. The houses were there, somebody was injured
16 and they were pulled into the nearest available door.
17 Vinny Coyle being a very big character
18 probably would have called people into his house,
19 I presume, if they were injured, and maybe the other
20 two people, Raymond Rogan would have been a very well
21 respected member of the community and I am sure if
22 there was a problem, he would have opened his door and
23 let people in.
24 I do not know the name Shiels; it is ringing
25 a bell, I do not know --
1 Q. Understand, Mrs Bradley, I am not seeking to
2 either embarrass or confuse you in asking these
3 questions, but in your time as a Knight of Malta during
4 the 1970s, or as a nurse, did you treat a number of
5 people who had plainly been shot in engagements against
6 the army?
7 A. Did I treat -- I am sure I did. I am trying
8 to specifically. I have treated a lot of people in
9 Altnagelvin as well --
10 MR TOOHEY: The question may be ambiguous; do
11 you mean at the hospital or somewhere else?
12 MR CLARKE: Either as a Knights of Malta on
13 the street or at Altnagelvin as a nurse?
14 A. I treated lots in Altnagelvin as a nurse.
15 I treated more actually army personnel and police
16 across the town rather than, than civilians injured.
17 I seemed to be in positions where I had treated a lot
18 of soldiers and policemen. I am trying to think of
19 civilians --
20 Q. Mrs Bradley, I will not ask you for the
21 names. I do not want to embarrass you in that way at
22 all, but what I do suggest is that there have been
23 occasions, particularly as a Knight of Malta rather
24 than as a nurse, where you almost have to turn a blind
25 eye as to how the person was injured; it is none of
1 your business really.
2 A. It is none of my business. I treat everybody
3 what creed or whatever they do. I do not --
4 Q. Is not "Red Mickey" Doherty somebody who was
5 moderately well-known in the Creggan and the Bogside?
6 A. Not at that time.
7 Q. We are told in very strong terms by your
8 namesake, previously a Roman Catholic priest, that
9 nobody could move out of the Bogside or the Creggan
10 without most people knowing, certainly the priest
11 knowing within days. Was it a bit like that?
12 A. I can honestly say I did not know that "Red
13 Mickey" was involved in anything at that time when
14 I treated him.
15 Q. You may not have known he was involved in
16 anything, but you knew who he was, did you not?
17 A. At that time, no. I just knew, somebody must
18 have says, "that is 'Red Mickey'". I did not know,
19 I just assumed he was shot like everybody else was shot
20 that day and there was no funny reason behind it or
21 suspicious reason.
22 Q. Then later on you did discover a bit more
23 about him because he knew a neighbour of yours?
24 A. A neighbour of mine would have known, he
25 says, "that is 'Red Mickey', he works down the market",
1 I would have seen him working in the market.
2 Q. Which market?
3 A. Behind the walls then years later.
4 Q. Selling what, do you remember?
5 A. I cannot honestly.
6 Q. Again I am not asking for the name,
7 Mrs Bradley, but do you remember the name of your
8 neighbour who knew "Red Mickey"?
9 A. I do know the name of him, yeah.
10 Q. Would you be content to give that name, not
11 to us now but to the Inquiry so that further inquiries
12 can be made?
13 A. If necessary.
14 Q. Would that be all right, if you could give
15 that to a member of the Inquiry who I suspect will
16 approach you in due course. I do not want you to give
17 the name in public; I do not want to embarrass that
18 person. You appreciate it would help us a great deal
19 if we were able to discover a bit more. Thank you.
20 Questioned by MR ELIAS
21 MR ELIAS: Mrs Bradley, just one matter, if
22 I may: Dr Donal McDermott, who you saw at Vinny Coyle's
23 house, was at that time the senior doctor working with
24 the Knights of Malta, was he not?
25 A. He was, yes.
1 Q. I think he described himself as the "Chief
2 Medical Officer" for the Knight of Malta?
3 A. He was.
4 Q. Was he with you working through the night at
5 the St. Mary's Centre?
6 A. I cannot remember.
7 Q. You cannot remember at all, can you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. There were doctors there, were there?
10 A. I cannot remember. There may not necessarily
11 always have been doctors there.
12 Q. I understand that, but through the night
13 there would have been, from time to time at least,
14 doctors present?
15 A. Not necessarily during the night.
16 Q. Not at all?
17 A. I cannot remember. There could have been.
18 Q. Can you help about this: through the night
19 from St. Mary's Centre up until 5 or 6 o'clock in the
20 morning when you finished, were any of the patients
21 treated through the early hours of that morning
22 referred to any hospital as far as you remember?
23 A. I cannot remember. My friend Hugh Deehan
24 told me we did take Mr Liddy to the hospital just quite
25 recently that night. I do not remember taking him
1 over. We could have told people to go if they were
2 seriously injured, you know. Most were -- I would say
3 were bruising and cuts and, um, minor as regards
4 needing hospital attention, you know, were too scared
5 to go to the hospital after, they would have considered
6 --
7 Q. I understand that, I understand they were
8 scared to go.
9 Were records kept by you or of anyone else of
10 the people who were treated that morning?
11 A. Unfortunately not.
12 MR ROXBURGH: Could we have AB56.34 on the
13 screen, please? Mrs Bradley, you have with you now
14 I think the original of this list?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the
17 original, please, and to tell the Tribunal whether all
18 the names and addresses are written in the same
19 coloured ink?
20 A. No, the first six are in red ink.
21 Q. The first six are in red ink down to, would
22 that be, down to W McKinney?
23 A. Yeah, he is the last.
24 Q. Are all the others in the same coloured ink
25 or in a different coloured ink?
1 A. No, Joe Friel is in a different coloured ink
2 and Kevin McElhinney.
3 Q. It is one colour from James Wray down to
4 W McKinney and then another colour from H Gilmore down
5 to American cameraman; is that right?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And then a third colour for Joe Friel and
8 Kevin McElhinney?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. It is a long time ago, but do you have any
11 recollection as to how that might have come about?
12 A. Unless somebody gave me pens on the way up to
13 write it. Maybe somebody gave me the first six names
14 and gave me a pen, that is all I can --
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs Bradley. I have no
16 further questions.
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mrs Bradley, the Chairman
18 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
19 assist the Inquiry.
20 A. Thank you.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, may I raise one matter in
23 relation to that witness? It is a procedural matter
24 and it is this: although I do not represent the
25 witness, my solicitor Mr Doherty did originally take
1 the statement with some care that you have and his
2 concern is here that if -- and it may apply to other
3 witnesses who are to come -- allegations or suggestions
4 that may indicate that the witness has done something
5 deliberately, for example, omit a name for some
6 ulterior motive are to be put, as we understand it,
7 there ought to be at least some form of warning to the
8 witness in the form of a letter or something to
9 indicate that may be put so she is in a position to
10 deal with such matters. I merely raise it because it
11 does not seem to have happened on that occasion.
12 LORD SAVILLE: That sort of thing was going
13 through my mind, Mr Mansfield. In the best of all
14 possible worlds what you say is right and should be
15 followed, but we have to be fairly practical about
16 this. My colleagues of course also always, we hope,
17 very careful indeed to make sure the witness is not
18 unfairly taken by surprise. At the same time if
19 suggestions that the witness is deliberately being
20 silent, deliberately failing to say something or indeed
21 deliberately trying to falsify matters, if such
22 suggestions are going to be put, then, as we have
23 already said, I think, the normal rule is that that
24 information should be made known, at least to the
25 Tribunal in advance, so that the Tribunal can consider
1 whether in fact there are proper grounds for making any
2 such suggestion.
3 MR MANSFIELD: Please understand it is not
4 intended to be a particular criticism, it is really for
5 the benefit of the future, that is all.
6 LORD SAVILLE: I do follow that, but --
7 MR MANSFIELD: And I understand the
8 difficulty.
9 LORD SAVILLE: There are difficulties where
10 one just really has to take a practical course, bearing
11 in mind all the time that we are not disposed to allow
12 any unfair questioning of witnesses, but if you were
13 going to put every possible adverse suggestion in
14 advance, we would reach an impossible position.
15 For example, take Mr Phillips last week where
16 in fact it was suggested to him by a number of Counsel
17 that in fact his reporting was biased and so on. One
18 can really probably see that coming. We took the view
19 that, subject to the comment I made about successive
20 Counsel questioning, that the questions were within the
21 bounds of fairness to the witness and generally in the
22 interests of justice. I am sure your comments will be
23 noted. We do have to steer a course which does not
24 pick up every single point of criticism that might be
25 made of a witness, while equally being vigilant to
1 ensure that all witnesses are treated fairly.
2 Unfortunately, there is a grey area and we
3 just have to do the best we can. I did not think on
4 this occasion that any questions of Mrs Bradley were
5 unfair to that witness. I think you are right to raise
6 the point and we must all bear in mind that if there is
7 any question of serious sustained criticism of a
8 witness, allegations of hiding the truth or distorting
9 the truth, then the general rule must be that the
10 Tribunal must be notified in advance that it is
11 proposed to do this. The Tribunal will then form a
12 view as to whether or not circumstances are such that
13 it is fair to allow such a line of questioning.
14 MR SAM GILLESPIE, sworn
15 Questioned by MR CLARKE
16 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Gillespie, you have
17 possibly heard me say this to all the witnesses: I am
18 the Chairman and questions will, in the main, come from
19 the barristers who sit in front of me. Could I ask you
20 to try and remember to keep your face reasonably close
21 to that microphone in front of you so that we can all
22 hear what you have to say.
23 MR CLARKE: Mr Gillespie, do you have with
24 you your statement to this Tribunal signed on 31st May?
25 A. Yes, I have, yes.
1 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
2 the best of your knowledge and belief?
3 A. To the best of my knowledge and belief, yes.
4 Q. Because we have all been able to read it I am
5 not going to take you through the whole of it, but deal
6 with certain parts of it by reference to your
7 photographs which you very kindly provided to this
8 Tribunal.
9 You describe in paragraphs 3 to 5, if we
10 could have those highlighted on the screen, taking a
11 photograph of the main leading section of the march as
12 it neared the top of Westland Street before turning
13 into Lone Moor Road and then staying in front of the
14 main leading section of the march, and recalling a
15 group of people gathered at around a junction between
16 William Street and Little James Street and continuing
17 east along William Street towards barrier 14.
18 Should we understand that, at this stage, you
19 were in front of the march, that is to say that the
20 march had not arrived at the spot where you were?
21 A. Yeah, I was in front of the march, yes.
22 I left the lorry as it was coming down William Street
23 and proceeded on to what used to be the old City Cinema
24 in William Street.
25 Q. If we look at the photographs that you took,
1 we can put them up on the screen. Could we have P911
2 to begin with? I think that is the photograph that you
3 took, is that right?
4 A. Yeah, that is at the top of Westland Street
5 where it joins the Lone Moor Road, yes.
6 Q. The march, as we can see is just about to
7 turn right?
8 A. Yeah, across the Lone Moor Road and down
9 Creggan Street and down William Street.
10 Q. If we turn to 912, I think that is a
11 photograph, is it not, showing people breaking away
12 from the march and coming down the east end of
13 William Street?
14 A. That is correct, yes.
15 Q. The next photograph, can we have P913,
16 I think must have been taken earlier -- before the
17 previous photograph?
18 A. Yeah, that was prior to those people coming
19 down the street. That is the clock, you will notice,
20 20 minutes to 4, the Guildhall.
21 Q. It looks as if it is 3.35, does it not?
22 A. Round about that time, yeah, coming up to 20
23 minutes to 4, yeah, 3.35, okay.
24 Q. If we look at photograph P914, I think that
25 is another photograph obviously taken at the same time?
1 A. Yeah, yes, round about that time, yes.
2 Q. The photograph that we looked at earlier,
3 912: did you turn round, as it were, from where you
4 had been taking those photographs at the barrier and
5 see this group coming towards you; is that what
6 happened, or --
7 A. No, things were relatively quiet at the
8 barrier in William Street at that particular time. As
9 you can see from the previous photograph, there was not
10 a lot of activity. There was very few people there.
11 There was a couple of reporters and I gathered there
12 was a bit of a commotion going on at the corner of
13 Rossville Street and the street directly opposite that
14 intersects William Street -- I forget the name of it --
15 Q. Little James Street?
16 A. Little James Street. There was a bit of
17 stone-throwing going on up there, so I was proceeding
18 back up there and I met these people coming down the
19 road, towards the barrier at William Street, at the
20 City Cinema.
21 Q. If we come on to 915 --
22 A. That was taken at the same time as roughly 20
23 minutes to 4. Round about the time, prior to the group
24 of people, the breakaway group of people. That was at
25 the same time as the photograph that shows the clock.
1 Q. If we look at 916: was that taken --
2 A. The same time, yeah, when things was quite
3 jovial and quiet.
4 Q. 917: taken at the same time?
5 A. Yeah, yeah, everything was quiet there as you
6 were able to get so close, you know.
7 Q. If we then go to 918, this looks to me as if
8 it is a photograph taken at the top of Rossville Street
9 where it intersects with William Street and it is
10 looking towards Little James Street.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall how you came to take this
13 photograph?
14 A. That photograph, I think, was the last -- one
15 of the last photographs taken on that day; that was
16 after the episodes in the Rossville car park and the
17 episodes in the barricade opposite the
18 Rossville Flats. This, I recall, to be perhaps maybe
19 the last photograph taken of the day.
20 Q. When you say "the last photograph taken of
21 the day", that is after you had seen people being taken
22 to ambulances below block 2 of the Rossville Flats?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Could we come, please, to AG36.3, paragraphs
25 7 to 9? You describe there how there came a time where
1 various people, along with stewards, tried to control
2 the breakaway group that you had photographed as it
3 reached the junction with Chamberlain Street and for a
4 short while appeared to do so, but the group soon got
5 beyond their control, the stone-throwing began and the
6 soldiers responded but not immediately and you stood in
7 a doorway on the northern side of William Street; is
8 that right?
9 A. That is correct, yes.
10 Q. You do not appear to have taken any
11 photographs at that stage; is this right?
12 A. Yes, that is quite true, yes.
13 Q. You then describe in paragraph 9 that for
14 whatever reason the time of 4 o'clock sticks in your
15 mind when the stoning began to decrease and the crowd
16 began to retreat along Chamberlain Street, and you also
17 began to make your way closer to the junction with
18 Chamberlain Street?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Do you know what it was that had caused the
21 stoning to begin to decrease?
22 A. Yeah, yeah. I did not -- at the time I did
23 not realise why the crowd had sort of begun to disperse
24 until I got to the point in Chamberlain Street where it
25 joins High Street. The Paratroopers were making their
1 way down High Street, they were hop-scotching the
2 doors, they were coming door by door down High Street,
3 so the people who were standing at the junction of
4 Rossville Street -- sorry, William Street -- and
5 Chamberlain Street were, if you would like, caught in
6 a pincer movement had the soldiers managed to close in
7 on that location, so that is probably why the crowd
8 dispersed.
9 Q. Could we have a look at your map, AG36.14 and
10 could we highlight the position round barrier 14? We
11 can see that High Street is the first street that you
12 reach on the left-hand side as you go along
13 Chamberlain Street from William Street in the direction
14 of the car park of the Rossville Flats.
15 Are you saying that the reason why --
16 A. Sorry, Harvey -- well, Harvey Street, my
17 mistake, Harvey Street.
18 Q. That is the second left. Are you saying that
19 the reason why stoning began to decrease and the crowd
20 began to retreat was because of the presence of
21 soldiers coming down Harvey Street?
22 A. Well, I am assuming that is the reason, if
23 I can just say in my own words what sort of I thought
24 happened.
25 The crowd were stoning the barricade at
1 William Street and of course the stoning was quite
2 heavy and then the crowd in a way began to disperse,
3 you know, you could sense something was, something was
4 afoot.
5 So I hung around as long as I could possibly
6 stay there until I seen the soldiers coming over the
7 barrier at William Street and they were not the sort of
8 the normal rioting, they were sort of a different
9 kettle of fish really.
10 But when I got to Harvey Street --
11 Harvey Street it is -- the soldiers had, were almost
12 three-quarters of the way down Harvey Street and they
13 were coming door by door, door by door as they do in
14 these exercises. That is when I first sort of come to
15 the conclusion that that was the reason why the people,
16 they were perhaps being frightened of caught --
17 surrounded by the ones coming from the barrier and ones
18 coming down Harvey Street.
19 Q. Do you have a recollection of the use of
20 water cannon at barrier 14?
21 A. Well, I cannot remember the water cannon
22 being used. It probably was used, but I cannot say
23 that I can actually remember the water cannon being
24 used.
25 Q. Rubber bullets?
1 A. Yeah, there was, general sort of a riot
2 situation where these things are sorta run-of-the-mill,
3 you know.
4 Q. The reason I ask is that we have had a lot of
5 evidence that the water cannon was used, probably on
6 two occasions together with rubber bullets, and
7 I wonder whether it was that that caused the crowds to
8 decrease at barrier 14 or between barrier 14 and
9 Chamberlain Street?
10 A. No, no. Well, assumptions could be yes, but
11 I think that the crowd begun to decrease from, from the
12 junction of William Street and Chamberlain Street
13 because of the pincer movement by the soldiers coming
14 down Harvey Street which would have entrapped everyone,
15 because you have got to bear in mind that I did not
16 leave that junction until the soldiers in
17 William Street had begun to come across the barrier by
18 the City Cinema, that is when I left.
19 Q. How many people were there around between the
20 barrier and the junction between William Street and
21 Chamberlain Street at the time when the soldiers began
22 to move through the barrier?
23 A. Well, there was -- most of them -- I could
24 say a fair proportion of the crowd had begun then to
25 disperse and just prior to the soldiers coming across,
1 I cannot give you a figure as in numbers how many was
2 there. It is impossible for me to say, but I was --
3 I stayed until, as long as I could possibly stay to see
4 what would develop from the situation. Then I decided
5 I would go as well and when I got to Harvey Street, the
6 soldiers were three-quarters of the way down the street
7 and I stopped to -- I stopped in the bottom of
8 Harvey Street where it joins Eden Place, the middle of
9 the road there, and I turned around to take a
10 photograph of the soldier who was basically, I do not
11 know, maybe 40, 50 feet away from me and that is when
12 I heard the first shot.
13 Q. Pausing there --
14 MR TOOHEY: Can I interrupt for a moment,
15 please? Mr Gillespie to your right, please: when you
16 speak of soldiers coming down Harvey Street in a pincer
17 movement, are you speaking of soldiers who had come
18 down Chamberlain Street and gone into Harvey Street, or
19 soldiers who may have come down Waterloo Street and
20 gone into Harvey Street, or --
21 A. I presume they had been positioned in
22 Waterloo Street because that is the only access, down
23 the hill is from Waterloo Street.
24 MR TOOHEY: Again, are you speaking then of
25 soldiers who, as it were were, moving from east to west
1 in Harvey Street, not the other way?
2 A. They were proceeding from Waterloo Street,
3 down Harvey Street towards Chamberlain Street.
4 MR CLARKE: When you had seen the soldiers
5 come through barrier 14, the barrier at the end of
6 William Street, were you conscious of any army vehicles
7 coming through that barrier at that stage or not?
8 A. No, no, there was no army vehicles had come
9 through at that stage.
10 Q. You vividly described to us how you went down
11 Chamberlain Street and saw these soldiers hop-scotching
12 down Harvey Street from Waterloo Street?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Do you recall what had happened at that stage
15 to the soldiers who had come in on foot through
16 barrier 14; had they come into Chamberlain Street or
17 not, or do you not recall?
18 A. I did not really look back as they approached
19 from barrier 14 to the junction of Chamberlain Street.
20 I stopped -- as I said, I stopped to take a photograph
21 of these soldiers that were almost at the bottom of
22 Harvey Street and as I brought my camera up to take a
23 photograph, that is when I heard the first shot. I, at
24 the time, thought the shot was fired at me because this
25 soldier who was, who was the leading soldier in that
1 group of people, had his rifle at hip height, that is
2 when I heard the first shot that day on Bloody Sunday.
3 Q. Where did the sound of the shot appear to
4 come from?
5 A. It seemed to come from that area of
6 Harvey Street, Harvey Street.
7 Q. Did you actually see any flash of rifle or
8 any recoil of a rifle of any soldier?
9 A. No, no, as I -- I stopped at the bottom of
10 the street and paused and I could see the soldiers
11 coming down, and my camera was hanging on a strap by my
12 side and I ran around, I sort of fumbled to get it up
13 to take a photograph and that is when I heard the
14 first, what I recall to be a shot.
15 Q. How many civilians were there around you at
16 this stage?
17 A. There was not many in the street at that
18 stage, no.
19 Q. Do you mean by that there were not any
20 through the length of Chamberlain Street or there just
21 were not any round at that junction?
22 A. There was not many at that junction at that
23 particular time. Like I say, I stayed at the junction
24 of William Street and Chamberlain Street for as long as
25 I possibly could and I think if I had stayed much
1 longer, I would have been sort of trapped between
2 Chamberlain Street and Harvey Street.
3 Q. You did not take the photograph you were
4 going to take?
5 A. I did not, no.
6 Q. And you ran south down Chamberlain Street,
7 refusing the offer from somebody to let you come into
8 her house and ran towards the Rossville Flats; is that
9 right?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. You have described in your statement how, as
12 you did that, you heard the sound of gunfire which
13 appeared to be close-by, but you have no idea where it
14 was coming from or how many shots were fired; is that
15 right?
16 A. That is when I heard more gunfire, yes, and
17 I proceeded on to the square of Rossville Flats.
18 Q. And you enter the car park and you describe
19 how when you were at about point "D" on your map, you
20 saw somebody lying on the ground at the point marked
21 "C" and took a photograph P920.
22 This is your photograph, is it not?
23 A. This is my photograph, yes.
24 Q. I think the photograph must have been taken
25 quite a bit further into the car park from where your
1 point "D" is?
2 A. Those are approximate references, of course.
3 Q. We can see, can we not, the car park
4 markings?
5 A. You can see the grid for the vehicles in the
6 car park. These are approximate markings.
7 Q. When you came into the car park, as you were
8 running from the mouth of Chamberlain Street to the
9 spot from which you took this photograph, did the group
10 look much the same or did it look different?
11 A. Well, as I rounded the corner from the end of
12 the row of houses in Chamberlain Street which led into
13 the car park, I was greeted by this group of people and
14 I could see someone lying on the ground. I did not
15 know who it was and I did not know what had happened,
16 but I would presume something was amiss here.
17 Q. As you moved in the direction of the spot
18 where you took this photograph, was the man on the
19 right-hand side coming out from the group at that stage
20 or did that only happen when you got to where your
21 photograph was taken from?
22 A. No, the event of the man walking away was
23 shortly after I arrived. I arrived there and I looked
24 to see what was going on, and I could hear the shouting
25 and people screaming and I heard a voice shouting "come
1 on, shoot me, you bastards, I am not armed either", and
2 this guy was waving his hands about like this
3 (indicating).
4 Q. You took this photograph. If we could now
5 have on the screen P921; you also took this
6 photograph.
7 Could we have P741, which is a slightly
8 better version? Do you have any idea what interval of
9 time there was or would have been between these two
10 photographs that you took?
11 A. Well, you are only talking of minutes because
12 this distance this fella walked was not all that
13 great. Maybe -- I do not know how long it would take
14 him to walk the length of that building, but obviously
15 he has not walked the length of that building. A very
16 short space of time.
17 MR TOOHEY: Mr Gillespie, was the army
18 vehicle stationary or moving when you took that
19 photograph?
20 A. This vehicle was stationary. This army
21 vehicle here with the soldier standing beside it was
22 stationary. This soldier to my left in the flats was
23 there -- these people were there when I got there.
24 MR CLARKE: You tell us you had noticed a
25 soldier positioned on the north-eastern end of block 1;
1 is that in the position where we can see a soldier with
2 a gun just round the corner in this photograph?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you had also seen a soldier on the
5 eastern side of the Saracen?
6 A. That is correct, yes.
7 Q. Was that roughly in the position that we can
8 see a soldier at the back of the Saracen in this
9 photograph?
10 A. Yeah, well, he is alongside it. He is
11 alongside the front of the vehicle, is he not, this
12 soldier, by the front of the vehicle here.
13 Q. I am not sure about that.
14 A. Maybe it is the back, I cannot see.
15 Q. I think it is the back. That is this
16 photograph.
17 Do you recall where he was when you first saw
18 him?
19 A. No, I do not recall where he actually was in
20 that, when I first saw him. When I first -- what made
21 me stay there, what made me stay in that position was
22 the response of this person who was shouting and
23 walking towards these soldiers and his words were "come
24 on, shoot me, you bastards, I am not armed either".
25 That is why I stayed there because I wanted to see what
1 was going to happen, and he was shot. I did not know
2 this person at the time and I did not know the person
3 who was lying on the floor at the time; I did not know
4 any of the people around there at the time.
5 Q. Can you help us about the sequence? We have
6 seen these two photographs; concentrating on the second
7 one, P741, which we have on the screen, does this show
8 the position before, at the time or after the man was
9 shot?
10 A. I think this was just as -- after he was
11 shot. I am nearly sure that this photograph was taken
12 just after he was shot because he, he seemed to turn
13 around as away from these soldiers at the corner and he
14 kept his -- his gestures were all the way towards the
15 soldiers with his arms in the air, waving them as
16 though to indicate that he was not -- there should be
17 another photograph, there is another one, is there,
18 no?
19 Q. Showing what?
20 A. Mr Bridge walking with his hands in the air;
21 no?
22 Q. No, I do not think so. What we have is your
23 photograph at 740. We have this photograph. Then
24 741.
25 Did you take another photograph of this
1 scene?
2 A. Perhaps I am mistaken about another
3 photograph taken of this scene. I had a photograph
4 enlarged by the Sunday Times. The Sunday Times took
5 these -- I have not seen these photographs for quite a
6 long time, I have never seen -- I do not have the
7 actual negatives of these photographs, they have all
8 disappeared. But Derek Humphries from the Sunday Times
9 acquired these photographs off me and the quality of
10 the photographs at the time were not all that good
11 because it was quite a, quite a scary situation and you
12 did not have really time to sit there and focus a
13 camera, you just sort of pressed the button and
14 Derek Humphries come to my house afterwards with the
15 photographs -- he heard I had some photographs; how,
16 I do not know.
17 Q. I think we have established that this
18 photograph, P741, in your recollection is immediately
19 after?
20 A. I think this was after he was shot, yes.
21 Q. Bridge had been shot. You had heard a shot;
22 is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. One, just one at this stage, or more?
25 A. Well, I heard a shot, then I seen Bridge grab
1 his leg. I think this was, this was just after Bridge
2 was shot because he has turned towards me and he is, he
3 was sort of in the process of spinning, you know what
4 I mean. He was turning away from what he was walking
5 towards. I am almost sure this was just after he was
6 -- this was after he was shot because I had him in my
7 view piece of the camera at the time.
8 Q. Did you see who had shot him?
9 A. I was actually looking at Bridge through the
10 lens of the camera, you know. I thought that the shot
11 come from the direction of those two fellas there.
12 Q. After you had taken this photograph, did you
13 see anything which enabled you to work out or even
14 guess who it was who had shot at him?
15 A. Not really. At the time I thought the shot
16 come from the soldier by the wall, the soldier standing
17 at the corner, you know. But I kept Bridge in the view
18 finder of my camera all the way where he was walking
19 from where that body was lying up to this point here
20 and I am -- when I heard the shot, I am nearly sure
21 that I pressed the button not long after that, maybe
22 seconds, you know what I mean.
23 Q. Your vision was literally tunnelled --
24 A. On Bridge and his reaction. I was waiting to
25 see what happened to Bridge, if he got close to the
1 soldier, this was my intention.
2 Q. Did you see him fall?
3 A. He did not actually fall, he sort of spun
4 around and grabbed his leg.
5 Q. What was the last you saw of him, then?
6 A. He sort of maybe went down on his -- one knee
7 or whatever. At that stage, there was more shots and
8 I decided my position was a little bit precarious and
9 I decided to vacate that area.
10 Q. You ran to the low wall which we know runs
11 parallel to the middle block; is that right?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Jumped over it on top of somebody who was
14 lying behind it?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. And heard shots coming from behind you. Were
17 you conscious of anyone being behind that wall who
18 appeared to have been injured?
19 A. Not at that time. Not at that time. I was
20 not conscious of anybody being injured, I thought I had
21 jumped on top of somebody and everybody was more or
22 less doing the same thing; everybody was more or less
23 cowering for cover because at that stage it all seemed
24 hell -- all hell seemed to break loose then. There was
25 a lot of gunfire going on there and everyone that was
1 behind that wall was keeping their heads down.
2 Q. What you did, as I understand it, was to make
3 your way or scramble along towards the gap between the
4 middle block and the eastern block and then go down
5 along the alleyway which lies behind Joseph Place to
6 the verge, which is just above Fahan Street; is that
7 right?
8 A. That is right, yes.
9 Q. If we look at P919: this photograph, you
10 tell us, was taken at that stage, that is to say at the
11 time when you had got to that grass verge having gone
12 down the back of Joseph Place; is that right?
13 A. That is correct, yes.
14 Q. So by now Jack Duddy, who we know to have
15 been the body on the ground in the car park, and
16 Michael Bridge had already been shot and you had had to
17 go down the back alleyway of Joseph Place; is that
18 right?
19 A. Well, I was making my way towards -- the
20 further I could get from William Street, the better and
21 I was, like everyone else, just trying to find a way
22 out of there.
23 Q. Were there other people in the alleyways; was
24 it crowded or not?
25 A. It was not crowded. There was people sort of
1 taking cover wherever they could at that time.
2 Q. Did you run down it or walk down it?
3 A. I ran down it, yes. I did not -- I ran down
4 it, but it was not like 100 mile an hour job, sort of
5 getting out of the way, you know what I mean.
6 Q. Somebody has written at the top of this
7 photograph:
8 "The moment of shooting -- note direction of
9 fire from troops, not towards, seen from Free Derry
10 Corner."
11 Is that your handwriting or somebody else's?
12 A. That is not my handwriting.
13 Q. Does it in fact depict the moment of
14 shooting? When you took this photograph, was shooting
15 going on?
16 A. When I got to the end of this junction of
17 Joseph Place and this square at Rossville Street, the
18 lorry, the Free Derry Corner, the lorry that was used
19 in the procession was all parked down there and there
20 was a group of people all standing around. As you can
21 see they have all fallen down on the floor there taking
22 cover.
23 At that particular moment there was a lot of
24 shots appeared to come from what I thought was my left,
25 towards the Derry wall sort of thing, you know. There
1 was a lot of shooting sort of from -- how many shots
2 I cannot recall how many actual shots, but everyone
3 sort of seemed to dive for cover again.
4 Q. Could we have the map back on the screen,
5 AG36.14? At the time that you took this photograph, as
6 I understand it, you were at approximately point "H";
7 is that right?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. You said that at the moment you took it there
10 was a lot of shots that appeared to come from what you
11 thought was your left?
12 A. The sound of the gunfire appeared to come
13 from my left -- appeared to come from my left and
14 everyone who was standing by the corner here, this
15 Free Derry Corner here, and the people who were at the
16 corner of this building where the arrow and "H" is,
17 everyone just seemed to fall over and get their heads
18 down again.
19 Q. Could we maximize this map a little more,
20 I want the bottom half of it?
21 When you say that the shooting appear to come
22 from your left, can you be any more precise about where
23 it appeared to be coming from?
24 A. No, I cannot. I cannot be any more precise,
25 but the sound of the gunfire seemed to be coming from
1 sort of behind and to the left of me which would have,
2 if you want to go for directions, perhaps it comes from
3 the bank or the walls or whatever, I do not know, but
4 it did not appear to be coming from any other
5 direction, I do not know.
6 I cannot be sure where the shots were coming
7 from, but all I know is the shots seemed to be coming
8 from behind me to the left, as I say.
9 Q. Can we go back to paragraphs 25 to 27 on
10 AG36.6? You describe in paragraph 25 how after a
11 period you walked from where you were at spot "H" along
12 the front, the west side of Joseph Place, in the
13 direction of blocks 1 and 2 of the Rossville Flats
14 where you came upon somebody being carried into one of
15 the houses at the end of Joseph Place.
16 Then, at a time when there was still sporadic
17 gunshots, you reached the area of the telephone box,
18 saw blood stains on the ground with blankets nearby and
19 took photographs of people being carried to ambulances
20 from the houses at the end of Joseph Place. Then after
21 a while when shooting stopped and people milled around
22 the Rossville Street area, you took another photograph
23 of people walking down Rossville Street at the position
24 of the rubble barricade.
25 Can I go through the photographs that we have
1 to identify where they may fit in the sequence? Could
2 we have photograph P922? This is not a very clear
3 photograph, but can you work out where it is and what
4 is happening in it?
5 A. That is not very far from the telephone kiosk
6 where there was someone lying on the floor. On the
7 left of the photograph there is the maisonettes of
8 Joseph Place and the high wall behind it, I think, was
9 the section of Rossville Flats, the concrete.
10 Q. Do you mean on the right of the photograph
11 was Joseph Place?
12 A. Yeah, the right of the photograph and the one
13 -- what shows the window, I think, are the buildings
14 of Joseph Place and the darker non-window, but at the
15 back I presume to be what I think is Rossville Flats.
16 They were carrying someone into a house, this is one of
17 the -- again, this is a sort of a hurried sort of
18 thing, this was after the episode that ...
19 Q. Could we have on the screen 922.001: on the
20 back of each of the photographs that we have from you
21 taken on the day there are notes in handwriting. This
22 note says:
23 "People taking cover. Looks like area at end
24 of Joseph Flats corner with main Rossville Flats".
25 Is that your signature on the left?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that your handwriting?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall when you put these notes on the
5 back of the photographs?
6 A. When people from Eversheds first come to me,
7 right.
8 Q. It is not something you did in 1972?
9 A. No, I had not seen these photographs until
10 the -- Eversheds first contacted me.
11 Q. Some of your photographs appear to have ended
12 up at the University of Hull; do you know how they got
13 there?
14 A. I do not know how they got there because this
15 original film that was taken, there was only a couple
16 of shots really that are relevant on that, the whole of
17 the shot -- but I do not know how Derek Humphries from
18 the Sunday Times got to know that I had photographs.
19 I had some photographs developed by a friend of my
20 brother's who has got -- he does a little bit of
21 photography. I did not quite know what was on these
22 photographs, so I asked him to develop them and he did
23 them, not a very good job. Then a couple of days later
24 Derek Humphries from the Sunday Times arrived in my
25 house and -- of course he wanted to know what
1 photographs I had and I told him, and I gave him the
2 photographs and negatives and he enlarged them. The
3 one of the group of people who were at the corner of
4 Rossville Street with the lorry, that is an enlargement
5 of his which he published in the Sunday Times
6 supplement not long after the issue of Bloody Sunday.
7 He also had a couple enlarged and they were
8 quite good. He returned them all to me and I work
9 abroad a lot and then someone -- my father had a knock
10 on the door one day and someone else, reportedly from a
11 newspaper which he at the time thought was the Sunday
12 Times, asking for the photographs again and in his
13 wisdom he gave them to her and we have never seen them
14 since.
15 The ones you are referring to here are ones
16 that my brother -- when I, after I was contacted by
17 Eversheds, my brother fortunately had a couple of
18 copies and these are the old copies that he had, but
19 the actual photograph of Bridge, the enlargement of
20 Bridge being shot, we had to enlarge the photograph of
21 Bridge and there was nothing whatsoever in his hands,
22 it was the issue that I wanted to make at the time.
23 Q. If we could look at the photographs we do
24 have and if we look at 923: I think that is --
25 A. That again is a sort of hazy photograph of
1 people getting carried into the flats.
2 Q. That is Joseph Place, is it?
3 A. Yeah, yeah, around that vicinity. It is
4 Joseph Place, it is the maisonettes, what we call the
5 maisonettes.
6 Q. 924 is, I think, somebody being carried out
7 of the flats?
8 A. Yes, this is someone going to the ambulance,
9 yes. Who that is, I do not know, I do not have a clue.
10 Q. 925: I think that has survived in rather
11 better quality?
12 A. Yes, this is people being taken to the
13 ambulance. There was the odd sporadic gunfire going on
14 there; as you can see the person holding their hands up
15 to ask for cease-fire or whatever the case might be.
16 Q. 926: a similar scene?
17 A. Yeah, a similar scene, yeah. I think that
18 may be the same person getting carried into the
19 ambulance.
20 Q. Should we assume that 927 is the same person,
21 or same activity?
22 A. Same activity, yeah, yeah. I think they were
23 under-exposed.
24 MR TOOHEY: Mr Gillespie, your statement
25 speaks of ambulances in the plural. Did you photograph
1 more than one ambulance --
2 A. I think this person getting carried to this
3 ambulance, I think this was just one photograph,
4 I think. If you can go back to the next one perhaps he
5 can -- or if we go back to the previous one --
6 MR CLARKE: 926?
7 A. Yeah, that is probably the same, yeah.
8 MR TOOHEY: What is your recollection, if you
9 have one: was there just one ambulance that you
10 photographed?
11 A. Yeah, I would say that was one ambulance that
12 I photographed.
13 MR CLARKE: 928 has got a stretcher outside
14 an ambulance; is that the same ambulance or a different
15 one, do you know?
16 A. It seems to be in the same location.
17 I cannot recall if that is the same. It seems to be in
18 the same location, the same vicinity; maybe it is two
19 ambulances, I cannot recall.
20 Q. Could we have a look at 929? This is a
21 photograph. It shows, as we now know, Father Mulvey
22 (who is the man on the right); Father Bradley (on the
23 left), seen in profile walking just beyond the
24 barricade in the direction of some army vehicles
25 further up. I think this is if not the last, one of
1 the last photographs you took on the day; is that
2 right?
3 A. Yeah, yeah, this was sort of after all the
4 shooting had -- well, this was after the bulk of the
5 shooting had occurred and there was sort of confusion
6 and calm and there was, these three police were walking
7 towards the Saracen armoured vehicle which is parked
8 just in front --
9 Q. Did you see what these priests did after you
10 had taken this photograph?
11 A. I cannot recall what happened after I took
12 this photograph.
13 Q. Can we have on the screen 930? There is a
14 photograph plainly taken from a height.
15 Is this a photograph taken by you, and if so,
16 is it a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday?
17 A. This is a photograph I think was taken after
18 Bloody Sunday from the Derry Walls. There was a lot of
19 people milling around the day after Bloody Sunday and
20 this Donney -- representative of -- I forget his second
21 name, but he asked me did I have any other photographs
22 of Bloody Sunday or the location of the
23 Rossville Flats, so I gave him this as a --
24 Q. This was not taken on Saturday,
25 30th January 1972?
1 A. I do not think it was, no, this I think was
2 taken the day afterwards.
3 Q. Presumably the same goes for 931?
4 A. Yeah, that is the same location.
5 Q. It also was taken the next day and not on
6 30th January?
7 A. I think so. I cannot be sure about that,
8 I will just say I cannot recall what --
9 Q. 932; is that looking down Waterloo Street, or
10 is it somewhere else?
11 A. That is looking down Waterloo Street.
12 I think this photograph here was taken round about the
13 time of the photograph with the clock at the bottom of
14 William Street. I think this was prior to the -- or
15 was it? I think this was on the day, but I -- I think
16 this was taken before it all began.
17 Q. Does the same go for 933, which is the next
18 and last one?
19 A. Yeah. I cannot recall. Maybe afterwards,
20 I am not sure, but things were relatively quiet when
21 these two photographs came (inaudible).
22 Q. Could we go, please, to AG36.17? In your
23 statement you refer to this very short statement and
24 you describe it as having been given in a brief fashion
25 to Mr Derek Humphries of the Sunday Times?
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. In fact we think that it is almost certainly
3 a typescript copy of a statement probably taken in
4 manuscript given to a representative of the
5 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. I say that
6 because it is in identical form to many other similar
7 statements taken in similar circumstances and it is not
8 at all in the form of the notes we have seen of quite a
9 number of interviews conducted by the Sunday Times.
10 Do you remember giving a statement to the
11 civil rights people?
12 A. I cannot recall giving a statement to the
13 civil rights people. Perhaps I did, I do not know, but
14 the only people that I can recall -- clearly recall
15 talking to was Derek Humphries and that was the only
16 person.
17 I was puzzled about this myself when I seen
18 the official thing at the bottom "record office and
19 Crown Copyright". When I seen this I was a little
20 bit -- I said to myself (inaudible) where is that
21 coming --
22 Q. That is your signature on the bottom --
23 A. That is my signature on the bottom, yes.
24 Perhaps it is a statement from the Northern Ireland
25 civil rights people, but I cannot recall talking to
1 them. It obviously could very well be, it is my
2 signature and ...
3 Q. It has on it in typescript just below your
4 address, the words "photographs accompany this
5 statement".
6 You recollect, as I understand it, giving the
7 Sunday Times some photographs, but nobody else at the
8 time; is that right?
9 A. These are the only people that I had --
10 Derek Humphries is the only people that took the film
11 from me, and this is a similar statement which appears
12 in the Sunday Times at the time that there was a little
13 bit of a statement in it, so ...
14 Q. You told us you did not attend the
15 Widgery Inquiry because you thought that it would be
16 biased.
17 Am I right in thinking your photographs
18 probably did not reach the Widgery Inquiry as well?
19 A. I do not have a clue if the photographs
20 reached there, I just do not know. I have not got a
21 clue.
22 Q. Can we go to paragraphs 32 on AG36.7: you
23 say that shortly after Bloody Sunday a person that you
24 knew to be a member of the IRA personally asked you for
25 photographs, which you refused to give.
1 When you say "the photographs", what
2 photographs did he ask for; all your photographs or
3 some specific photographs?
4 A. Well, the day after Bloody Sunday this person
5 come to me and said they were collecting up all the
6 films that people had -- they wanted to see the
7 photographs that people had taken the day prior to it
8 and they asked me for the film, and I would not give it
9 to him.
10 Q. Did he say why he wanted them?
11 A. He did not say why he wanted them, I did not
12 ask him why he wanted them. I just would not give him
13 the film for the photographs.
14 Q. Do you know which wing of the IRA he was a
15 member of?
16 A. He was in the Provisional IRA at the time,
17 I think.
18 Q. You say you will not disclose his name?
19 A. No, I will not disclose it, no.
20 Q. Sorry?
21 A. I will not disclose his name.
22 Q. Would you be prepared without disclosing his
23 name publicly to do what a number of other witnesses
24 have done, and to write down what his name is?
25 A. No. I will not write his name down.
1 Q. Why is that?
2 A. Well, just what I said, on the statement:
3 I will not disclose his name.
4 Q. That is just a statement; is there any
5 particular reason?
6 A. No, well, I thought perhaps -- people did not
7 know this man was in the IRA or was a member of the
8 Provisional wing, I believed him to be a member of the
9 Provisional wing of the IRA.
10 Q. You knew him to be according to this
11 paragraph?
12 A. Yes, yes, I had reason to believe that he was
13 a member of the Provisional wing of the IRA.
14 Q. Those are all the questions that I have for
15 the moment, though I may -- the Inquiry may need to
16 return to what appears in paragraphs 32.
17 A. And what is that?
18 Q. The name of the individual.
19 A. Oh, if you like, I will give you this name,
20 but on paper.
21 Q. Could you do that?
22 A. Perhaps, no, we will just leave that. I will
23 keep it as my own statement as it stands. Is it
24 beneficial if you know this person's name?
25 Q. It is beneficial because our task is to
1 discover the whole truth of Bloody Sunday which
2 includes what members of the IRA were or were not doing
3 on that day and only they can tell us?
4 A. (Pause)
5 (Name written down and handed)
6 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know whether
7 this person is still living in Derry?
8 A. I do not have a clue. I have not seen that
9 man from that day to this.
10 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
11 LORD GIFFORD: I want to ask about one area
12 of your evidence -- my name is Anthony Gifford and
13 I appear for the family of James Wray -- it is when you
14 are at the junction of Chamberlain Street and
15 Harvey Street and you see the Paratroopers coming down
16 Harvey Street, and you are about to take a photograph
17 and you hear a shot.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you at any time around that time see a
20 camera crew?
21 A. In the Harvey Street.
22 Q. In the area of the junction of Harvey Street
23 or in Harvey Street itself?
24 A. No, there was -- as far as I can recollect
25 there was only one other -- I stopped and there was,
1 there was only another one person standing there at
2 that particular moment in time and that was me, and
3 I stopped to take a photograph of these soldiers who
4 were approaching down Harvey Street towards
5 Chamberlain Street.
6 Q. You yourself were at the junction of those
7 two roads?
8 A. It is a crossroads, where you get
9 Harvey Street and you get Chamberlain Street and you
10 get Eden Place, which runs across into the Rossville
11 car park.
12 Q. And you were in the centre of those streets?
13 A. I stopped there in the junction of that and
14 took the photograph. All I was -- I did not take a
15 photograph. I was bringing my camera up to take a
16 photograph of the soldiers who were three-quarters of
17 the way down Harvey Street and that is -- I did not
18 take the photograph because I heard a shot.
19 Q. You have no doubt that is the first gunshot
20 you heard on that day?
21 A. As far as I can recall, that is the first
22 gunshot I heard on that day. There was a normal riot
23 situation prior to that where you had the people in
24 Rossville Street -- William Street having this battle
25 with the soldiers at the barricade by the City Cinema.
1 Q. You then turned and ran down
2 Chamberlain Street?
3 A. Yes, I had decided I would get out of there.
4 Q. At the run?
5 A. I ran, I ran down the street and an old lady
6 opened -- well, the doorway was open and as I, I was
7 sort of staying close to the walls of the houses on the
8 right-hand side as I went across and the old lady --
9 I do not know, I say "old", it might be derogatory to
10 say that -- she asked me to come in out of the way and
11 I says "no" because I thought if I went in there and
12 the soldiers were coming in behind me, they would come
13 in there also, so all I wanted to do was get away.
14 Q. At that time as you ran as you were with the
15 lady, you heard more gunshots?
16 A. As I was proceeding from -- along
17 Chamberlain Street towards the car park of
18 Rossville Flats, there was shots -- there was gunfire
19 then. When I got then to the car park I see the group
20 of people surrounding Mr Duddy.
21 Q. Stop there: a number of single high velocity
22 gunshots?
23 A. Yes, it was single sort of -- it was not like
24 you see in the movies at all, you know.
25 Q. Not automatic shots?
1 A. Yeah, it was single shots, but not, not one,
2 but there was --
3 Q. Quite a lot of them?
4 A. Perhaps, I should retract when I say that,
5 I cannot say whether it was automatic gunfire or single
6 shots, but the shots, pauses between them, I cannot
7 give you the technical term for it.
8 Q. You are doing just best, thank you very
9 much.
10 Questioned by MR KENNEDY
11 MR KENNEDY: My name is Kennedy and I act for
12 Michael Bridge, Mr Kennedy. I want to take you back to
13 the two photographs that you took.
14 You have described how your attention was
15 focused and your view finder was focused on
16 Michael Bridge as he was shot?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you indicated how your attention was on
19 him from prior to the first photograph you took when he
20 left the crowd and his arms waving in a "come on"
21 fashion. Can you say whether he had anything in either
22 of his hands at any time?
23 A. Michael Bridge -- I did not know this was
24 Michael Bridge at the time, I only knew this was
25 Michael Bridge after the event. Michael Bridge --
1 I had that photograph enlarged by the Sunday Times, the
2 original photograph of that was enlarged by the Sunday
3 Times and you could see the man's fingernails and there
4 was nothing in his hands.
5 Q. I am talking about -- the short period of
6 time when you followed him from when he was leaving the
7 group?
8 A. When I followed him, the gesture of his hand
9 was that like, come and --
10 Q. Thank you, do you know what happened the
11 photographs that you enlarged?
12 A. They were sent back from the Sunday Times to
13 my parents' house in Broadway and I work abroad a lot,
14 and I have not lived in Derry since 1969.
15 Q. You do not know what happened them?
16 A. Someone come and collected them --
17 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Kennedy, Mr Gillespie in
18 his statement has said what his recollection is about
19 the photographs. He has also said something to the
20 same effect to Mr Clarke. I am not sure we are going
21 to get much further, are we?
22 MR KENNEDY: I accept that, sir. Thank you.
23 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
24 MR GLASGOW: Mr Gillespie, my name is Glasgow
25 and I represent a lot of the soldiers. I have a few
1 questions for you, please.
2 Could we look at the first page of your
3 statement which we have at AG36.2, paragraph 2? So you
4 can see the point, just a question of your knowledge of
5 the involvement of the Paratroop Regiment.
6 Do you think it is possible, Mr Gillespie, it
7 is something that you heard spoken of at about the time
8 of Bloody Sunday or do you have a clear recollection of
9 seeing it in the newspaper?
10 A. I have a clear recollection of reading this
11 in a newspaper. There was a lot of -- I read this
12 somewhere that that was ...
13 Q. Do you have a clear recollection of reading
14 it before Bloody Sunday?
15 A. Before, yeah. Again there was a lot of
16 apprehension, there was a lot of -- this particular
17 episode had generated a lot of attention because the
18 statement that the Paratroopers had sort of made, the
19 statement in the press that the Paratroopers had
20 cleaned up Belfast and they are now coming to clean up
21 Derry.
22 Q. My only question, Mr Gillespie, and in
23 fairness to you I think you did not make your
24 statement, you did not speak to Eversheds until June or
25 July of this year?
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. You are looking back on it, nearly 30 years
3 back at the time?
4 A. Correct, yes.
5 Q. Do you think it is possible what was spoken
6 about about the Parachute Regiment and the feelings
7 about them has assumed such an importance in your mind
8 that you now honestly believe it was in the newspapers,
9 or can you in your mind's eye actually see a newspaper
10 article today?
11 A. In my mind's eye I cannot see a newspaper
12 article today, but I know I can recall this particular
13 event generating a lot of apprehension about the
14 outcome.
15 Q. I am not challenging that at all,
16 Mr Gillespie, I am just wondering whether it is
17 possible that the emotion and the feeling that was
18 generated at about the time of Bloody Sunday has led
19 you to believe that perhaps it was even in the
20 newspapers when it was not?
21 A. No, it has not led me to believe that.
22 Q. It has not, very well.
23 A. I believe that I read this somewhere prior.
24 Q. I am not challenging the honesty of your
25 belief, just the accuracy of whether you are right
1 about it.
2 Going over the page, if we may, to AG36.3.
3 Could I take you to the last two paragraphs on this
4 page, paragraphs 12 and 13? Here I am asking you about
5 the time when the Paratroopers came through barrier 14;
6 you recall what we are referring to as barrier 14?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In William Street?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You say there was a fair bit of noise as the
11 Paras came through the barrier.
12 Am I right in thinking that there was not at
13 that time very much noise around the barrier itself,
14 but that there was noise coming from elsewhere; does
15 that fit with your recollection?
16 A. When I say there was a fair bit of noise as
17 the Paras come through, I meant they were pulling the
18 barriers to one side and the scrambling, the activity
19 of the barrier I was referring to there.
20 Q. Did you hear any noise coming from the area
21 generally --
22 A. Oh, yeah, there was -- again there was quite
23 a few people still, not a lot of people but there was
24 quite a lot of people there at the junction of
25 Chamberlain Street and Rossville Street.
1 Q. And your recollection as you ran away, wholly
2 understandably, from where you were is that you started
3 off running down Chamberlain Street towards the
4 Rossville Flats?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And you were fearful and you assumed that the
7 soldiers whom you had seen coming through the barrier
8 were probably running down behind you?
9 A. Yes, yes. I assumed that they were making in
10 that direction also.
11 Q. I am not criticising, I make it plain and
12 I am certainly not doubting your honesty, but do you
13 think it is possible that when you recall soldiers
14 hop-scotching along from doorway to doorway that that
15 was something you saw in Chamberlain Street rather than
16 Harvey Street?
17 A. No, this was Harvey Street.
18 Q. You definitely believe --
19 A. It was definitely Harvey Street.
20 Q. When the soldiers came through the barrier
21 and the barrier is pulled aside and they begin running
22 through. They were completely out in the open in quite
23 a long line spread out along William Street, were they
24 not?
25 A. The first two or three soldiers that I had
1 seen coming through come through. They did not pull
2 the barrier right across, they moved it --
3 Q. Open the gap?
4 A. They opened the gap.
5 Q. And the soldiers ran through, roughly in the
6 middle of the road, one after another?
7 A. No, they come through the side by the side of
8 the shops.
9 Q. The northern pavement, towards the northern
10 pavement?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And ran diagonally across the road --
13 A. They come in a sort of single file through
14 there and --
15 Q. Completely openly?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Standing out in the open?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There came a stage a few moments later --
20 whether you be right about Harvey Street or
21 Chamberlain Street -- there did come a stage when you
22 saw soldiers, not running out in the open, with you in
23 your words "hop-scotching" from doorway to doorway,
24 running from position of cover to position of cover; do
25 you remember that?
1 A. Yeah, that is in Harvey Street.
2 Q. I entirely accept your honesty. You will
3 understand the job I have to do. I am suggesting you
4 may be mistaken about that. I can tell you why,
5 because the Tribunal has seen a video film, one of the
6 news films of this sort of activity going on in
7 Chamberlain Street.
8 You are clear in your recollection that you
9 think it was Harvey Street?
10 A. Yes. Let me go back to the point of
11 reference of Harvey Street. I believe in my heart and
12 soul and the reason why the people began to disperse so
13 rapidly, in other words the stone-throwing and
14 everything else come to a close so quickly is that
15 someone had seen these soldiers perhaps coming down
16 Harvey Street in a pincer movement to close in
17 (indicating).
18 Q. I will not go on about that, I accept the
19 honesty of what you have said. The matter I would like
20 you to help the Tribunal about is this: you saw
21 soldiers running in the open as they came through the
22 barrier?
23 A. As they come through the barrier in single
24 file, they come across. Then I vacated the premises,
25 I left.
1 Q. A few moments later you see soldiers, whether
2 the same individuals or not, perhaps we will never
3 know, but you see some soldiers taking cover and
4 changing places with one another as they sequentially
5 "hop-scotch", in your words, taking cover from doorway
6 to doorway?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Did you see or hear anything that in your
9 mind explained why it was that at one minute soldiers
10 were running about in the open diagonally across an
11 open road, and the next moment you became aware of
12 their movements they were hop-scotching from cover
13 position to cover position.
14 Did you hear anything or see anything that
15 would explain that different behaviour on the part of
16 those soldiers?
17 A. No, but they were two completely different
18 groups. The group of soldiers on William Street were
19 completely different from the people that were coming
20 down Harvey Street or High Street, or whatever street
21 it was.
22 Q. While you were in Chamberlain Street,
23 Mr Gillespie, did you hear any noise at all coming from
24 the wasteground -- you know what I mean by the
25 wasteground: Eden Place, that area?
1 A. Yeah, yeah.
2 Q. In fairness to you, shall we look at your
3 map, it might help a little bit, AG36.16, I think?
4 To help you get your bearings, Mr Gillespie,
5 you had seen the soldier run through from roughly the
6 corner of that barrier to there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You believe you then saw soldiers running
9 down there -- I have left it underneath Harvey Street
10 so you can still read the word; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I appreciate I am suggesting to you you could
13 be mistaken, and the soldiers you believe were in
14 Harvey Street hop-scotching from doorway to doorway
15 were in fact coming down having turned the corner and
16 come down that street there?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Going backwards and forwards across the
19 street?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You think I am wrong about that?
22 A. I am sure you are wrong about that. The
23 soldiers I seen coming down Harvey Street.
24 Harvey Street. I remember stopping preparing to take a
25 photograph of these soldiers coming down Harvey Street.
1 Q. When you were in Chamberlain Street did you
2 hear any noise at all coming from this area here?
3 A. Well, you know, these things are not dead
4 quiet, you know what I mean. These situations, when
5 you get these riots situations, the definition of
6 quiet, the noise, it is phenomenal really, is it not?
7 Q. Just one example: had you heard any military
8 vehicles moving in the area where my --
9 A. I cannot recall hearing or seeing military
10 vehicles. I could not see military vehicles from where
11 I was.
12 Q. Before what you have described as the first
13 shot that you heard, had you heard any rubber bullets
14 being fired?
15 A. Yeah, perhaps at the barrier, all this, the
16 riot at William Street.
17 Q. Had you heard any rubber bullets fired in
18 that area there; do you see where I put my second
19 rather crude circle?
20 A. Yes, but I was nowhere near that area and
21 what separates that area from me was a row of houses
22 and a little narrow alleyway.
23 Q. There was of course the alleyway of the
24 continuation of Harvey Street that becomes Eden Place
25 through there?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Did you look down there at all?
3 A. I perhaps gazed down there on my way across,
4 but what attracted my attention was these soldiers
5 coming down Harvey Street.
6 Q. If we go back to your statement at AG36.4,
7 two paragraphs: could we look at paragraphs 14 and 15
8 together, please? In paragraph 14 when you describe
9 yourself hearing a shot, that, you believe, is the
10 first shot that you heard on that day and in that area?
11 A. Correct. That is the first thing that
12 I thought to be a shot on that day.
13 Q. At paragraph 15 you are still in
14 Chamberlain Street and you describe the sound of
15 gunfire. You are there talking about a number of
16 shots?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. When you say in the next sentence:
19 "I had no idea from where it was coming";
20 that is the position, is it, you simply cannot help the
21 Tribunal as to the direction from which this number of
22 shots was coming at that stage?
23 A. No. I cannot put a position on that.
24 Q. Over the page, please, at page 4 of your
25 statement -- we have it as AG36.5 -- looking at the end
1 of paragraph 17, which we have at the very top of the
2 page, your belief, Mr Gillespie, is that at the time
3 when you saw Michael Bridge walking or moving
4 northwards from the car park towards the wasteground
5 that there were approximately three soldiers whom you
6 could see at the entrance to the car park; that is
7 still your honest recollection?
8 A. When I got to the car park I seen this person
9 lying on the ground and --
10 Q. Could we have a look at your map again, it
11 may help you, at AG36.14, and if we could enlarge that
12 car park area?
13 You are there describing, are you not, the
14 soldiers whom you saw standing out in this area here?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There and there, and an armoured car or a Pig
17 as it was called at "G" there; that is your
18 recollection?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. While we have the map there, you do not
21 recall seeing any soldier closer to you behind
22 Chamberlain Street in that area there?
23 A. No, no, no, the soldiers in the armoured
24 vehicle were in the position that I described.
25 Q. In that case, may we leave that and go to the
1 photograph at P627, please.
2 While that comes up, Mr Gillespie, the
3 reason, so you can see there is no -- is this a scene
4 that you remember of the group of people over
5 Mr Duddy's body?
6 A. Yeah, there seemed to be more people there
7 when I got there.
8 Q. I am sorry, I have taken it out of order,
9 that is not a fair photograph to show you before I have
10 shown the other one. I do apologise, I have confused
11 you. The photograph I meant to show you, it is my
12 mistake, is photograph 741.
13 What I was going to help you with, if I may,
14 Mr Gillespie, is that you recall at this time that
15 there were soldiers standing in that area,
16 approximately two of them?
17 A. When I say two soldiers, I meant this guy
18 standing here beside the block of flats and this
19 soldier beside this Saracen, armoured vehicle. What
20 you see here is what I meant.
21 Q. I am not being critical, but when on your
22 plan you mark the armoured car with two soldiers
23 between the armoured car and the wall, your better
24 recollection today is as we see in this photograph?
25 A. Perhaps my description was misleading on the
1 plan, but what I seen is what is described in this
2 photo.
3 Q. What I want you to deal with and to help the
4 Tribunal if you can, Mr Gillespie, again what I went to
5 put to you so you can see there is no confusion: some
6 witnesses have told the Tribunal of a soldier or
7 soldiers standing in this area there and Mr Bridge
8 himself has now given evidence and told the Tribunal,
9 doubtless honestly, that he believes he was shot by a
10 soldier standing in the area where my move arrow has
11 gone; that is not your recollection?
12 A. Perhaps Mr Bridge, Mr Bridge was more
13 centrally located in the car park than I was. My angle
14 was, angle of view as looking as is in this
15 photograph. I could not see behind this wall. What
16 I could see was what I could see.
17 Q. That leads to my next question, then, you
18 probably see it coming: do you think it is possible
19 that you honestly believe that the soldiers who shot
20 Michael Bridge were standing where the blue arrows are
21 because those were the only soldiers whom you saw, and
22 you have associated them with the noise and the
23 shooting that you heard; is that a possibility?
24 A. No, it is not a possibility.
25 MR TOOHEY: Mr Glasgow, I am having a little
1 trouble with this line of questioning. The plan on
2 which Mr Gillespie marked two soldiers and a Saracen --
3 MR GLASGOW: Yes, that we have as --
4 MR TOOHEY: With "F", "E" and "G", with "F"
5 the soldier at the northern end of block 1, "E" the
6 Saracen and "G" the soldier on one side of the
7 Saracen.
8 Is that not what the plan purports to show?
9 I say that having regard to paragraph 16.
10 MR GLASGOW: Yes, and perhaps more helpfully
11 paragraph 19, sir, that is correct.
12 MR TOOHEY: But then the two soldiers to whom
13 Mr Gillespie refers according to the statement and the
14 plan, is one on the north-eastern corner of block 1 and
15 one on the eastern side of the Saracen; is that not the
16 position?
17 MR GLASGOW: You are quite right. I am very
18 sorry. I have seen your point. Let me clarify it
19 again, if I may: could we go back to 741? It is my
20 fault and not yours. May I put to you again what
21 I should have put to you. Your recollection, as is
22 shown in this photograph, to be fair, is of one soldier
23 where we see a soldier?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Of a Saracen, but perhaps slightly closer to
1 the wall?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And a soldier standing as we look at this
4 photograph, to the right of the Saracen, in that
5 position?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That is your recollection?
8 A. Yes. That is my recollection and that is
9 what I, what I can see in front of me now.
10 Q. And that accords with the photograph?
11 A. That accords with the -- perhaps there was
12 three soldiers there. Looking at this photograph,
13 I can see a foot behind the front leading -- what
14 appears to be a foot behind the front leading wheel of
15 this armoured vehicle. Maybe there is another soldier
16 standing beside it.
17 Q. If it helps you, I believe you are right
18 about that; there is the foot you can see of a soldier
19 just under there?
20 A. Like, all this happened in --
21 Q. Mr Gillespie, I am not being critical and
22 I welcome the correction. I apologise for the mistake.
23 The matter I want you to concentrate on, if
24 you would, you were unaware if there were any of
25 soldiers behind the wall there because, as you rightly
1 point out, they would probably have been outside your
2 field of vision?
3 A. Correct, my field of view did not allow
4 access to what was behind that wall. In actual fact
5 I did not even know this person who was standing here
6 to my left, this man with his hands in his pocket.
7 I did not even see him until the photograph was
8 developed.
9 Q. For the sake of the transcript, when you say
10 to your left, you are referring in fact --
11 A. This guy here.
12 Q. This man, he would have been on your right,
13 would he not?
14 A. On my right, sorry. I did not even know this
15 man was there until this man was developed.
16 Q. Throughout the time that you had this kind of
17 view in front of you, you never were aware of anybody
18 against the wall where the light blue arrow is?
19 A. What the the soldier to the -- to my left
20 against Rossville Flats?
21 Q. No, on the right-hand side, where the light
22 blue arrow is, do you see the --
23 A. The person against the wall, like, it is like
24 a greeney arrow; you have a red arrow, you have a
25 purple arrow and a blue arrow.
1 Q. I will do another arrow. You were never
2 aware of anybody standing against that wall?
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. Again, so that again you can see the point,
5 the Tribunal has heard quite a lot of evidence,
6 particularly from Father Daly (as he was), of a gunman,
7 a civilian gunman creeping along that wall and firing
8 shots round the corner of it.
9 If that happened, you were totally unaware of
10 it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You never saw it?
13 A. No. What you got to realise, see, my sole
14 purpose of stopping was to find out what was -- when
15 I heard this person, whom I now believe to be
16 Michael Bridge, I do not know this person -- my sole
17 purpose in life at that particular moment was to find
18 out the reaction of what is going to happen when this
19 person walks towards these soldiers. That is why
20 I stopped. I did not take any particular notice to
21 that fellow who is standing there beside the yellow
22 arrow; I did not see anyone behind the wall of the red
23 arrow. I wanted to see what was going to happen when
24 this man walked towards this (inaudible) because of
25 what he was saying. He was walking towards the
1 soldiers and he was shouting "come on, you bastards,
2 shoot me now. I am not armed", and I just wanted to
3 see.
4 In hindsight it was crazy of me to stand
5 there, I should have just got out of the way, but I --
6 and I followed this guy up in the viewfinder of the
7 camera because I thought something was going to happen,
8 and that is the reason why I stopped. I did not take
9 any particular notice to -- I did not know this guy was
10 standing here until the photograph was developed, this
11 fella here. I do not know who this is to this day.
12 Q. How long did you remain in this kind of
13 position from which we see the photograph was taken --
14 A. Not very long, not very long after this man
15 was shot. I thought, you know, my line of fire -- the
16 line of fire I could be hit next if any more is going
17 to come from anywhere. I believed the shots to come
18 from the direction of these people here and I thought
19 my life was in jeopardy if I stayed because there was a
20 dead person lying over here, I did not know he was
21 dead, there was a person shot there, I had just seen
22 this other guy getting shot and I thought, well,
23 Gillespie, it is about time you got away from here.
24 Q. If I may say so, wholly understandably, the
25 only people upon whom you were concentrating were the
1 man, who you now know is Mr Bridge?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the only soldiers whom you could see and
4 who you believed genuinely must be one or other of the
5 soldiers who shot him?
6 A. Like I say, there is two or three soldiers.
7 There is a foot behind this vehicle here, look, you
8 see -- I believed to be a foot.
9 Q. At that time, sir, did you notice or were you
10 aware of anything that was going on to the left of this
11 photograph, off this photograph behind Michael Bridge,
12 as we know him to be, out in that area there?
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. Nothing at all?
15 A. I had the camera to my head and I followed
16 Bridge up like that, right, then the shot and Bridge
17 got -- leg.
18 Q. Just bearing the photograph we have looked at
19 in mind and reminding ourselves of where everybody was,
20 could we now go to photograph P627 which I showed you
21 mistakenly earlier? You will appreciate that this is
22 the general area that would have been behind Mr Bridge
23 as seen from the entrance to the car park and in the
24 direction of the green arrow, which I marked on the
25 last photograph?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. It appears, we all know the tragedy with
3 young Mr Duddy lying on the ground and Father Bradley
4 and others leaning over him, and a gentleman who
5 appears to be in the act of picking something up from
6 the ground?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Did you see that?
9 A. This was prior to my arrival in the car park.
10 Q. Yes, did you see that? You see that scene?
11 A. Do I see this scene now?
12 Q. No, on the day?
13 A. No, I did not see this scene on the day.
14 I said this is prior to my arrival in the car park.
15 While this was going on, I was probably making my way
16 across Chamberlain Street. This scene had already
17 occurred by the time I arrived.
18 Q. How can you say that?
19 A. Because there was more people around Mr --
20 this Mr Duddy, who is lying on the floor.
21 Q. At the time when you saw this scene of this
22 area, this area behind, there were quite a number of
23 people --
24 A. If you want to pull back the photograph, the
25 previous photograph that I took before Mr Bridge was
1 shot, that is the scene that I --
2 Q. By the time you saw Mr Duddy, whether it be
3 before or after this photograph was taken, there were
4 more people around?
5 A. There were more people around him.
6 Q. Were the people that you saw in this area all
7 just clustered around the body, or were there people
8 standing or moving or running in the area generally in
9 addition to those who were round Jackie Duddy's body?
10 A. There was, there was probably a few people
11 milling around, single people or whatever, but what
12 sticks in my mind is the group of people that was
13 around Mr Duddy. I cannot say how many people were
14 around Mr Duddy; I cannot say how many people were in
15 the surrounding vicinity of Mr Duddy.
16 Q. Did you see what any of them was doing?
17 A. They were, they were grouped around the body
18 lying on the floor. That is the reason why I stopped,
19 and the reason why I stayed was because I heard someone
20 shout and waving his hand about going towards the
21 soldiers, that is the only reason why I stayed in that
22 position.
23 Q. If we look at your recollection that you said
24 a number of times of what he was shouting, your belief
25 today is he was shouting something like "shoot me, you
1 bastards, shoot me, I am not armed either"?
2 A. Correct, that is the words that I heard.
3 Whether they come from Mr Duddy's mouth or someone
4 else, but that is the reason why I stayed and this
5 person who I believed to be shouting these words was
6 Mr Duddy.
7 Q. I think Mr Bridge?
8 A. Sorry, yes.
9 Q. It is not meant to sound rude or doubting
10 your honesty; is it not until some 30 years after the
11 event that you remembered those words?
12 A. No, this statement here, right, right --
13 Q. I think it was May, was it not, of this year
14 that you made this statement, it was 31st May, we are
15 told, of this year --
16 MR CLARKE: Last year.
17 MR GLASGOW: Thank you very much, I do
18 apologise, yes. It is just over a year ago that you
19 made this statement?
20 A. You mean the words of "come on, shoot me, you
21 bastards, I am not armed either"?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No, no. If you go back to the statement of
24 the Sunday Times, the short statement I had supposedly
25 given the Sunday Times --
1 Q. Of course I will take you to that, it is only
2 fair that I should. AG36.1 we have it.
3 A. I think I told Mr Derek Humphries those
4 words.
5 Q. Again, I repeat I am not doubting your
6 honesty, but the words you recalled at the time in
7 1972, whoever took this statement, if you look at the
8 end of the first paragraph, they are:
9 "Shoot me, you bastards, shoot me".
10 It is only fair to tell you that is not very
11 different from evidence that a lot of people have given
12 to this Tribunal.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The words that I was questioning with you is
15 whether or not you do honestly having a clear
16 recollection of him also saying "I am not armed
17 either"?
18 A. That is clear in my mind and that is why
19 Mr Humphries took the original photograph and had it
20 enlarged of Mr Bridge.
21 Q. But you will see the importance of the words
22 and I am sure you appreciate as you speak them today.
23 If you had heard those words or recalled
24 hearing those words at the time in 1972?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you explain why they do not appear in
2 this statement that you made at the time because they
3 would have been rather important, I suggest?
4 A. Well, you are probably quite true on what you
5 say it was probably a very important few words in the
6 light of events, right. But the events that ensued,
7 I did not really know what was going to ensue from that
8 day to this, but I will say in my heart and soul and
9 I heard this man shout "I am not armed either".
10 Q. Two other small matters, if I may,
11 Mr Gillespie: you remember the photograph you took at
12 the south of Joseph Place. Can we look at that again
13 at P922?
14 Your recollection of that photograph was that
15 these people were also carrying a wounded person
16 somewhere into one of the Joseph Place Flats?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you remember now, sir, where that person
19 was being carried from? It might help if you looked at
20 your plan AG36.14.
21 You have told us that you were standing at
22 the letter "H" down there; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the photograph appears to be taken --
25 please correct me if I am wrong -- of the south end of
1 Joseph Place, there; is that right?
2 A. No, no, this photograph I think is taken --
3 Q. In that case ignore my arrow.
4 A. Joseph Place and Rossville Flats.
5 Q. I did not mean to mislead you, I am sorry,
6 Mr Gillespie. Could you be given control of the screen
7 and could you draw a little line to the position where
8 you believe this photograph is taken?
9 A. I think it is, it is either taken at the
10 corner of this building here -- this was after the --
11 Q. Thank you for trying.
12 The last matter, I am afraid, is the one
13 Mr Clarke has already asked you about: it is your
14 paragraph 32 on page AG36.7.
15 Is your recollection today, Mr Gillespie,
16 that the man whom you know to have been in the
17 Provisional IRA visited you the day after
18 Bloody Sunday; was it the day after?
19 A. I think it was very shortly after the event
20 or maybe it was after the -- very shortly after the
21 event of it happening because I got the photographs
22 developed with a friend of my brother's and I did not
23 want to take them to the shop.
24 Q. It certainly was not after your photographs
25 had appeared in the press, it was a shorter time than
1 that?
2 A. No, no, no.
3 Q. Would I be right in thinking, Mr Gillespie,
4 that as a well-known keen amateur photographer --
5 A. No, I am not a well-known, I just like
6 playing with a camera --
7 Q. People know a lot about what everybody does
8 in this city, but you were quite well-known as a keen
9 photographer in this city, were you not?
10 A. No, no, I was not.
11 Q. How would anybody, let alone a Provisional
12 IRA man, know that you had been taking photographs at
13 all or do you think that maybe it had just come out in
14 the information after Bloody Sunday?
15 A. Like I say, I gave the film to my brother to
16 be developed. My brother gave it to his friend, his
17 name escapes me --
18 Q. A number of people knew?
19 A. A number of people knew I had this film,
20 right.
21 Q. And a very short time people knew he had been
22 taking photographs, you get a visit from a
23 Provisional IRA man who wants to get his hands on your
24 film?
25 A. The words the man said to me, "we are trying
1 to get the photographs" -- anybody who had taken any
2 photographs on that day of Bloody Sunday and he asked
3 me would I give him the film, and I said "no". That
4 was the end of that and I have never seen that man
5 since.
6 Q. He did not tell you why he, as a
7 Provisional IRA man, was particularly keen to get his
8 hands on your film?
9 A. No, they were trying to gather photographs,
10 evidential photographs or whatever, or words to that
11 effect, of the happening and I would not give him my
12 photographs or my film or whatever it was at the time.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Do you have any further
14 questions of Mr Gillespie?
15 MR CLARKE: One which will be literally two
16 seconds. Could we have 428 on the screen? Have you
17 ever seen that photograph before?
18 A. No, I have not, no. Maybe at the time or
19 after Bloody Sunday looking at photographs in papers.
20 Q. You have no idea who took it?
21 A. No, I have no idea.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Gillespie, it is the
23 Chairman speaking to you, thank you very much indeed
24 for coming here to assist the Inquiry, thank you.
25 I think we will stop here for lunch,
1 Mr Clarke. It is nearly mid-day. We will come back at
2 ten to one. I think it is Mr O'Kane next.
3 MR CLARKE: Yes.
4 (12.00 pm)
5 (The luncheon adjournment)
6 (12.55 pm)
7 MR JAMES AUGUSTINE O'KANE, sworn
8 Questioned by MS McGAHEY
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr O'Kane, it is the Chairman
10 speaking to you, to your right. I say this to all the
11 witnesses: the questions will come from the barristers
12 who sit in front of me. Can you try and remember to
13 keep reasonably close to that microphone in front of
14 you and then we can all hear what you have to say.
15 MS McGAHEY: Mr O'Kane, do you have in front
16 of you a copy of the statement that you made to this
17 Inquiry and signed on 9th May this year?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
20 the best of your knowledge and belief?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Everybody here has had an opportunity to read
23 your statement, so I only intend to ask you about parts
24 of it. If we could stay on the first page of it, at
25 paragraph 4 you tell us you were on the march and you
1 thought that it would go straight down to the
2 Guildhall. Had you heard any suggestion that the march
3 might be diverted to Free Derry Corner?
4 A. Yes, we did hear that.
5 Q. What was your understanding as you approach
6 the junction with William Street and Rossville Street
7 as to where this march was going to go?
8 A. Well, I understood it was going to be
9 blocked, we were not going to get to the Guildhall.
10 Q. Who had told you that?
11 A. It passed through the march.
12 Q. You go on then to tell us that you walked
13 down to Free Derry Corner without trouble. At
14 paragraph 7 at the bottom of the same page, you
15 describe a conversation that you heard amongst the
16 stewards. A number of stewards told others there had
17 been some trouble between the youngsters and the army
18 at barrier 14 and asked the other stewards to go and
19 help them. You then say your friend and you went with
20 the stewards back up Rossville Street?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Had you been asked to accompany them?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were just going to see what was going on?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Over the page, if we could turn to paragraphs
2 8 to 10, please, at paragraph 8 you say that there were
3 youngsters throwing stones and soldiers were
4 retaliating by firing CS gas. Did you actually see any
5 soldiers fire gas?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where was that?
8 A. From behind the Saracens, actually between
9 the two Saracens out into the crowd.
10 Q. How was the gas fired?
11 A. Well, it was coming, lobbing over the top
12 through a gun.
13 Q. From a gun?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you see a soldier?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Firing gas with a gun?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How many times did that happen?
20 A. Oh, I lost count.
21 Q. Roughly?
22 A. I would not have a clue. You are walking
23 about and they are firing and you are moving away from
24 the area and there are young fellas running about with
25 corrugated iron. I did not count how many times.
1 Q. Are we talking perhaps two or three times or
2 20 times, what sort of scale?
3 A. Well, at least five or six anyway, that I can
4 remember.
5 Q. That you can remember seeing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You describe the soldiers as identifiable by
8 their clothing as being mainly Paratroopers and wearing
9 riot gear. What was it about their clothing that made
10 you think they were Paratroopers?
11 A. Well, usually when you see different soldiers
12 with their emblems on them, you know the difference,
13 you know.
14 Q. What was it that made you identify these as
15 Paratroopers?
16 A. Well, the uniform they were wearing and their
17 size.
18 Q. The size?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Of the soldiers?
21 A. Yes. The Paratroopers are usually taller
22 than the ordinary soldier.
23 Q. What was special about the uniform?
24 A. It was just the ordinary British uniform,
25 like, but it was Paratroopers' uniform.
1 Q. Going on to paragraph 9 you say that you and
2 your friend had been at the barrier for about 20
3 minutes when you were told that a youngster had been
4 shot. When you received that news was the riot still
5 going on at barrier 14?
6 A. There was very few people milling around at
7 that stage and we made our way up Chamberlain Street
8 after we got word.
9 Q. But to your recollection there were rioters
10 still throwing stones?
11 A. There were still maybe a dozen people there
12 when I left.
13 Q. Were all the soldiers behind the barrier?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Had any at all come through?
16 A. No.
17 Q. But it was that, the news of the youngster
18 having been shot in the flats that made you run down
19 Chamberlain Street?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your recollection is at that stage you saw
22 Father Daly with a group of people?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We although that the image of Father Daly
25 with the body of Jack Duddy is a very well-known one?
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Is it possible that over the years your
3 memory may have played you tricks and in fact you did
4 not see that yourself?
5 A. No, I am sure I seen him as I ran up
6 Chamberlain Street as I cut into Eden Place, they were
7 coming out of the car park, to my recollection.
8 Q. Your recollection is that that occurred
9 before you saw Saracens coming into Rossville Street?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Again, is it possible over the years that you
12 might have mixed up in your mind the timing of events
13 and that you could have seen Saracens coming in first?
14 A. No.
15 Q. In paragraph 10 you say that you saw three
16 Saracens drive on to the wasteground beside you
17 arriving in quick succession and the first you said
18 "drove up on to a mound of earth"; what was that mound
19 of earth?
20 A. It was actually -- they come across, it was
21 rough ground where the houses had been knocked down and
22 they come across and there was a chap a lot older than
23 me on the right-hand side of me and they drove straight
24 at him and he dived on to the mound of earth, it was
25 actually a banking going up into the car park and at
1 that one of the soldiers jumped out and hit him with
2 the rifle on the back and two of them reached for him
3 and threw him into the back of the Saracen.
4 Q. If I showed you a photograph now, do you
5 think you might be able to recognise the old man --
6 A. No.
7 Q. -- you saw being attacked?
8 A. No, I did not stop. I continued to get out
9 of the road, because it could have been me.
10 Q. You have described in paragraphs 11 and 12
11 the points at which the second and third Saracens
12 stopped. Then in paragraph 12 you describe the number
13 of soldiers walking on the wasteground next to four or
14 five civilians with their hands in the air?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would like to show you a photograph and ask
17 you whether the scene shown in that photograph is
18 familiar. Could we have P518, please? You can see in
19 the foreground a Saracen at the mouth of the car park?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that roughly the location in which you saw
22 the old man?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Where was that?
25 A. It was further on in the wasteground.
1 Q. Further back that happened?
2 A. On this side, behind the flats, it was the
3 entrance into the back of the flats, the wasteground,
4 they come across down at an angle.
5 Q. We see two further Saracens at the back of
6 that photograph?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall seeing those in that location?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I would like to show you another photograph.
11 Could we have P485, please? You can see on the
12 left-hand side of the photograph the Saracen just
13 beyond the fence, the entrance to the car park and a
14 number of people appear to be being arrested by
15 soldiers. Does that scene look at all familiar to you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What was different about the scene as you
18 were looking at it?
19 A. The scene I was looking at was the Saracens
20 coming in round the back and the old man jumping out of
21 the road. There was no rioters on that end, only me
22 and him coming running through at that stage.
23 Q. Just the two of you running through?
24 A. Just the two of us.
25 Q. When Saracens came in?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were there no other people who had come down
3 Chamberlain Street with you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And no other people running in across the
6 wasteground towards the Rossville Flats car park?
7 A. I have no recollection, I never looked round
8 behind me, I was too busy trying to get out of the
9 area. There could have been people behind me, I do not
10 know.
11 Q. If we could go to your map, please, which is
12 AO81.11, you tell us in your statement at paragraph 13
13 that you saw two soldiers at the points you have marked
14 as G and H?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. G is at the northeast end of block 1 and H
17 about three-quarters of the way down the side of
18 Chamberlain Street; is that where you now remember
19 seeing them?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. If we go back to your statement, please, at
22 AO81.3, highlight paragraph 13, please. You say there
23 that you saw two soldiers standing at the points
24 marked. You describe first the soldier at point G,
25 about six-foot six tall?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell us anything else about him?
3 A. Well, I was running out of the road and I was
4 looking back at the Saracen and when I looked forward
5 I actually nearly run into the back of him. I stopped,
6 I hesitated, he was shooting in the air. He shot about
7 four to five shots and I was about to turn to go back
8 down Chamberlain Street when he turned round and he
9 shouted across, which I did not see Soldier H at the
10 time, and he shouted, "Keep the bastards' heads down,
11 stop them from photographing," and I looked up and
12 I seen the flashes of the cameras on the balconies,
13 hundreds of cameras, children and women screaming and
14 at that I changed my mind and went straight through.
15 Q. Can I stop you and take you back for
16 a moment; how close were you to that Paratrooper when
17 he said that?
18 A. I would say I was about three to four metres
19 off him at that stage.
20 Q. You have given us his height?
21 A. Roughly, yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us whether he was blond or dark?
23 A. No I could not, no.
24 Q. Black or white?
25 A. No, I just seen the back of a soldier, rifle
1 in the air and I was looking for a position to get
2 through. I was not taking details down of what he
3 looked like or what colour of hair he had.
4 Q. Did you see him only from the back?
5 A. I seen him from the back and just, he glanced
6 to the side and that is when I realised there was
7 another soldier to my left and he was moving about with
8 the gun like that. He was not firing, he seemed to be
9 covering his back at the time.
10 Q. When you saw this soldier, was he closer to
11 the Rossville Flats than you were?
12 A. The one on the left or the right?
13 Q. The G?
14 A. The G, yes, he was standing on the corner.
15 Q. With his back to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. With his rifle in the air?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You have identified it as a .303 rifle, are
20 you sure about that?
21 A. Yes, I seen the rifle and it was a .303.
22 Q. How did you know?
23 A. Because I have seen them before. I have seen
24 the soldiers before, I have been on marches before
25 that.
1 Q. So you had seen soldiers with similar guns
2 before?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What made you think that was a .303?
5 A. Because I seen them mentioned before that
6 they were .303s; they were in all the papers.
7 Q. You say that he fired four or five shots into
8 the air above the top of block 2?
9 A. Yes, in that direction.
10 Q. Was there any possibility you thought that he
11 was firing at the people on the balconies?
12 A. As soon as I seen him firing, I thought he
13 was firing at people on the balconies. I did not
14 realise he -- he spoke to the soldier on his left what
15 he was actually doing.
16 Q. You told us he was firing in the air above
17 the top of block 2?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was that what you saw him do?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If he was firing, so far as you could tell,
22 above the top of the block, what made you think he was
23 also firing at the people on the balconies?
24 A. I did not say he was firing, he was firing in
25 their direction, above their head.
1 Q. You then refer to Soldier H dressed in the
2 same uniform as the other soldier. Can you remember
3 anything at all about him, for example whether he was
4 black or white?
5 A. No, just I had a flash of him moving with the
6 rifle and I went on my way, straight through.
7 Q. You are sure that the words you heard spoken
8 by the soldier at G were to stop them taking
9 photographs?
10 A. Yes, because I was not for going through,
11 only when he says that, I was for turning.
12 Q. It was your recollection there were hundreds
13 of cameras on balconies?
14 A. Yes, there was.
15 Q. Presumably there were hundreds of people out
16 on balconies?
17 A. There was.
18 Q. Is that on just block 2?
19 A. Well, they were all over the balconies.
20 I had not time to look round everywhere. I just looked
21 up and seen those flashes across the balconies. People
22 were actually lying down taking photographs and they
23 were squealing and shouting down.
24 Q. Did you look at block 1, or block 3 has
25 balconies on the inside, did you look at block 3 --
1 A. No, I did not, I just run straight for block
2 2, to get in out of the road.
3 Q. While you were in the car park area or
4 looking at it, did you see any missiles being thrown
5 down from the balconies?
6 A. Well, there looked as if there was paper
7 coming down or something like that. It is -- it was
8 not coming down hard whatever it was, it looked as if
9 somebody was throwing waste paper or something like
10 that down at them.
11 Q. Where was that coming from?
12 A. That was coming from the balcony where
13 photographs were being taken.
14 Q. Was it just one balcony from which
15 photographs were taken?
16 A. Just straight ahead of me, I looked at it and
17 that is all I looked at, I put my head down and went
18 away again.
19 Q. Could we have photograph P289 on the screen,
20 please? Mr O'Kane, this photograph was taken many
21 years after Bloody Sunday, but it shows on the left the
22 bottom of Chamberlain Street and block 2 towards the
23 right-hand side of the photograph?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Looking at that photograph, can you tell us
1 from which area the flashes were coming?
2 A. From that balcony.
3 Q. If you can be given control. If you point at
4 the screen?
5 A. (Indicating).
6 Q. From that area?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The area you have pointed out is I think in
9 fact between two sets of balconies?
10 A. Well, it is on that area. It was up that
11 height, either the one below or the one above, it was
12 in that area.
13 Q. Was it on just the one level that you saw
14 these flashes?
15 A. It was the one, yes, on the one level. They
16 seemed to be all on the one.
17 Q. Were these flashes spread out over the entire
18 length of the level?
19 A. Yes, just time about, back and forward.
20 Q. Your recollection, looking at that
21 photograph, that the flashes were coming from the top
22 balcony of block 2 or the one below it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Or from the windows?
25 A. From the balconies.
1 Q. From the balconies?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it also from that area that the paper was
4 coming down?
5 A. Yes, it seemed to be paper to me
6 -- imagination I got as I ran on, as if somebody threw
7 a waste paper basket out and everything went amok. It
8 seemed to have gone down slowly, there were nothing
9 else.
10 Q. How much of this material came down?
11 A. Not a lot.
12 Q. Can we go back to your statement, please, at
13 AO81.3, paragraphs 14 and 15. You say that you looked
14 ahead and saw people sheltering behind the small wall
15 and they were jeering at the soldiers?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you hear what was being shouted?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Then when you reached a position that you
20 have marked as I, that we have on your map, which is
21 roughly in the middle of the car park; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. A young fellow was running beside you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Shouted, "I am shot in the arm"?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From which direction was he running?
3 A. Well, as I was running forward there were
4 people coming running out from the small wall that
5 I was heading for and I was getting blocked and I was
6 dodging in and out and the next I seen the fella
7 passing me with his two arms going like that
8 (indicating) and he fell and I stopped to lift him up
9 and he says, "I have been hit in the arm," and
10 I shouted to three or four boys behind the wall, "He
11 has been shot," and about four to five people come
12 running out and we carried him over to the small wall,
13 handed him over and they carried him on through the
14 alleyway.
15 Q. He come from the direction of the small wall
16 towards you?
17 A. I did not see. The first time I seen him was
18 going backways beside me. I thought he was running
19 alongside me because he passed me. The velocity of the
20 bullet probably drove him back, but I thought he was
21 running alongside me at the time. I just happened to
22 look up, there he was going backways. I was trying to
23 get through a crowd of people coming out shouting and
24 roaring at troops.
25 Q. When you say the first time that you saw him
1 he was going backwards, was he facing you or facing the
2 same direction as you?
3 A. He was facing me, he was going backways.
4 I was coming that way, he was facing me that way, just
5 beside me at my left-hand side.
6 Q. Up until that moment you had not seen him
7 running with you?
8 A. I had not noticed anybody at all. I just
9 seen the people coming out and I was dodging them and
10 that is the first time I seen him passing me, going
11 backways, which I took he was running alongside me,
12 I thought he actually tripped.
13 Q. Thank you very much, those are all the
14 questions I have.
15 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
16 MR GLASGOW: Mr O'Kane, my name is Glasgow
17 and I represent many of the soldiers. I have very few
18 matters for you. Could I take you back to what we call
19 barrier 14 at William Street?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You deal with it at the top of page AO81.2,
22 paragraph 8. Your recollection, your memory today is
23 of seeing some noticeably tall soldiers behind that
24 barrier. They were carrying shields and it was they,
25 was it, who you think fired some CS gas?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. They are the soldiers whom you believe to be
3 Paratroopers?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Two questions: do you think you may be
6 confused between the barrier in William Street and the
7 barrier round the corner to the north of Rossville
8 Street, Little James Street?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you go to the other barrier at all?
11 A. No.
12 Q. The reason -- just so you can deal with it,
13 I am not doubting your honesty -- the reason I asked
14 you that is from what we can see there do not appear to
15 have been any soldiers with shields behind barrier 12?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Do you think you could be mistaken about
18 that?
19 A. Well, they looked like shields to me from the
20 position, they were behind the Saracens.
21 Q. How close to the barrier did you get?
22 A. I would say I was 20 metres away from the
23 barrier.
24 Q. 20 metres?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Again, I do not dispute there would have been
2 CS gas coming up in the air from the area between the
3 two Pigs that were behind that barrier.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you think it is possible you saw the gas
6 coming up, rather than the cannisters actually being
7 fired; is that a possibility?
8 A. It is a possibility, yes.
9 Q. That is a possibility?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. A small point, but just on height: it was
12 your belief or your recollection of what you saw that
13 leads you to recall that the Paratroopers on the whole
14 were taller than the ordinary soldiers?
15 A. Yes, what I saw.
16 Q. It was what you saw?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I can tell you with some confidence that on
19 the whole, because of the job they are supposed to do,
20 Paratroopers on the whole are shorter than most
21 soldiers. Your recollection is that whoever it was
22 behind that barricade, they were taller?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. To get the sequence of events -- I will not
25 go over the ground that Ms McGahey has already helped
1 you -- your recollection is today that you saw Jackie
2 Duddy's body being carried up Chamberlain Street --
3 A. Coming out on to Chamberlain Street.
4 Q. He had been injured, he had been shot and he
5 had been tended to and he was being carried away before
6 you saw or heard the Saracens arrive for the Pigs
7 arrive on the wasteground?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That is your recollection?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could I ask you one more question about what
12 you saw on the balconies: when you say now that you
13 believe you saw hundreds of flashing cameras?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it the flashes that you remember or do you
16 think you actually saw cameras?
17 A. Flashes.
18 Q. You just saw flashes?
19 A. Flashes, yes.
20 Q. Was there at that time quite a lot of noise
21 going on?
22 A. Yes, there was. A lot of screaming and
23 shouting from the balconies.
24 Q. Screaming and shouting from the balconies?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was there any firing going on at that time?
2 A. The only firing was the Paratrooper that
3 I passed, that I was behind, he fired four to five
4 shots in the air.
5 Q. That was at the same time as you believe you
6 saw these flashes, a great many of them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
9 MS McGAHEY: I have no further questions,
10 thank you, sir.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Mr O'Kane, the Chairman
12 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
13 assist the Tribunal.
14 A. Thank you, sir.
15 (The witness withdrew)
16 MR LEO FRIEL, sworn
17 Questioned by MR RAWAT
18 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Friel, if you look to your
19 right, you will see who is talking to you. I am the
20 Chairman of the Tribunal. I say this to all the
21 witnesses: questions will in the main come from the
22 barristers who sit in front of me. Could I ask you to
23 try and remember to keep your face fairly close to that
24 microphone in front of you and then we will all be able
25 to hear what you have to say.
1 MR RAWAT: Mr Friel, do you have a copy of
2 your statement to this Inquiry which you signed on 30th
3 May of this year?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. I understand that you have one correction to
6 that statement. If we could put up your map, AF35.12,
7 please, you have marked a position with the letter F.
8 I understand that should now be at grid reference H18,
9 which would put it next to the letter E?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. If we could see what that letter relates to
12 now. If we could have page AF35.4, paragraph 11, what
13 you say in the first line of that paragraph is that:
14 "In what seemed like the same second the
15 shooting started I saw a man to the left of me in the
16 doorway of a house in Joseph Place where I have marked
17 F on the map, motioning everyone to get down to the
18 ground."
19 Are we now to take it that that man was
20 actually next to you in grid reference H18?
21 A. As far as I can remember the man was actually
22 standing on probably his own front door or maybe --
23 Q. Could you speak a little bit closer to the
24 microphone, I did not quite hear you. You say as far
25 as you understood it?
1 A. As far as I remember the man was actually
2 standing in his own front door or possibly in his own
3 garden.
4 Q. You marked the man as standing at -- the
5 original place where you marked F was in the doorway of
6 a house in Joseph Place; where you have now put F would
7 put the man standing in the middle of Rossville Street?
8 A. No. As I remember it, I seen this man out of
9 the corner of my eye and I looked towards him and he
10 was motioning everybody to lie down. As far as I can
11 remember he was actually standing in his own front door
12 or possibly his own front garden.
13 Q. If we go back to your map again AF35.12. If
14 I could have control, please, that is grid reference
15 H18; is that where you want the F to be?
16 A. Approximately, yeah.
17 Q. Let us leave it at that. Subject to that
18 correction, are the contents of your statement true to
19 the best of your knowledge and belief?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Everyone here, Mr Friel, has had the
22 opportunity to read your statement and so that means
23 I just need to ask you questions about some parts of
24 it. We could start with page AF35.3 and the bottom of
25 that page at paragraph 10.
1 To put that in context, Mr Friel, what
2 happened was that, having become separated from the
3 three school teacher friends with whom you had begun
4 the march -- that was Martin Bowen, Martin Gallagher
5 and Paul Elder -- you walked south along Rossville
6 Street towards Free Derry Corner.
7 In paragraph 10 you reached a point that you
8 marked as E on your map and which was opposite the gap
9 between the two blocks of the Joseph Place Flats. You
10 go on to say in paragraph 10:
11 "I suddenly heard gunfire. The shots I heard
12 were, I think, a mixture of single live shots and
13 rubber bullets being fired. All the shots appeared to
14 be coming from behind me (north). The live shots
15 I heard sounded all the same and I am sure it was army
16 rifle fire from an SLR fired in bursts."
17 Those were the first shots you had heard on
18 Bloody Sunday, were they not?
19 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
20 Q. You say in that paragraph that you heard a
21 mixture of live bullets and rubber bullets.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thinking back now, was there any space in
24 time between your hearing rubber bullets and these live
25 shots?
1 A. I can just remember a mixture of high
2 velocity shots and rubber bullets being fired, they
3 were all mixed together.
4 Q. How long did this gunfire last for?
5 A. A few minutes, possibly seconds, as far as
6 I can remember.
7 Q. How many people were there in
8 Rossville Street at the time?
9 A. I cannot remember.
10 Q. Can you remember people being around you?
11 A. Yes, I remember people being around me, but
12 to give you a number, I could not begin to.
13 Q. Can you recall whether they were all like
14 you, walking south towards Free Derry Corner?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If we stay with that page and highlight,
17 please, paragraphs 11 and 12, what you say in paragraph
18 11 is that you walked south about 10 feet in a couple
19 of seconds to point G and then you dropped to the
20 ground. Was that in response to this man who was
21 motioning everyone to the ground?
22 A. Very much so, yes.
23 Q. You had your head pointing towards Free Derry
24 Corner, but your face was turned towards the direction
25 of the city walls?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. You say that as you lay there you clearly
3 remember hearing three or four shots coming from your
4 left, that is to say the east. Did those shots sound
5 the same as the shots you described in paragraph 10; by
6 that I mean the shots you say came from the north?
7 A. They were exactly the same, yes.
8 Q. Did they overlap with the shots that were
9 coming from the north?
10 A. No, the first shots that I heard from behind
11 me, they seemed to quieten down, there did not seem to
12 be as much shooting going on. That is why I can
13 clearly remember where those shots came from, they were
14 from my left-hand side, not from behind.
15 Q. Are you able to help us with the time span
16 between the shots from the north and those from your
17 left?
18 A. It would be five, ten seconds.
19 Q. From your position at G lying there on the
20 ground, could you see anyone on the walls?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. Could you see any movement at all on the
23 walls?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If we look back to the screen and the
1 paragraph, what you also say is that you remember
2 seeing a puff of brown smoke coming from the northern
3 gable wall of Joseph Place which you mark as H on the
4 map:
5 "My first thought was I was in the middle of
6 a gun battle and someone must be shooting back at the
7 army, but then I thought, 'That cannot be right, you do
8 not get brown smoke from guns'. I suddenly realised
9 that what I was seeing was the plaster flying off the
10 wall as a shot, I assume from the army fire, hit it."
11 At that time in 1972 were you able to tell
12 the difference between shots fired by the IRA and shots
13 fired by the army?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. So, prior to Bloody Sunday you had heard the
16 sound of IRA fire?
17 A. I had heard it, yes.
18 Q. I am taking you back to that point in time
19 lying at position G: did you hear anything at that time
20 that sounded like IRA fire?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. If I put up, please, photograph P204, if we
23 could zoom up the area encompassing the Joseph Place
24 Flats and including Fahan Street and the tin hut,
25 please, that would be the right-hand side of the
1 photograph. Could you, if you are able, mark on that
2 photograph where you saw this plaster flying off?
3 A. (Marked with blue arrow - AF35.14).
4 Q. Are you able now to recall at what height it
5 was?
6 A. It would approximately have been
7 three-quarters of the way up that gable, two-thirds to
8 three-quarters of the way up.
9 Q. If we could save that, please, as AF35.14.
10 If we could go back to page AF35.4. Did you only see
11 one puff of brown smoke?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Whilst you were lying at the same position,
14 did you see the strike of any bullets on the ground?
15 A. No.
16 Q. If I could move you on to paragraph 12, what
17 you say there:
18 "While I was on the ground, I also heard
19 three or four or maybe more shots come from my left
20 (southeast) and an elevated level from the direction of
21 Nailor's Row."
22 What do you mean by "Nailor's Row"?
23 A. As far as I can remember Nailor's Row was,
24 they were derelict houses, they were about to be
25 knocked down. It was from that general area that
1 I heard three or four shots being fired from.
2 Q. You say:
3 "These shots sounded the same as the other
4 shots I had heard, that is each shot sounded like
5 a sharp crack and then a thump. It seemed there were
6 dozens of shots being fired from behind me, from the
7 direction of Rossville Street towards Free Derry
8 Corner, which sounded like army automatic gunfire."
9 Before asking you some more questions about
10 that paragraph, can I have P306, please. This
11 photograph, Mr Friel, is taken on Bloody Sunday,
12 probably some time after you had been in the area of
13 the rubble barricade. You can see the barricade in
14 front of you. I wonder if I could have control. Is
15 this the area of Nailor's Row?
16 A. Approximately, yes.
17 Q. If we go back to your paragraph 12, what you
18 have described and what I have read out is a second set
19 of shots coming from your left. What time span was
20 there between that set of shots coming from the left,
21 from the southeast if you like, and the first set which
22 you describe as coming from the east?
23 A. I am sorry, can you clarify that for me?
24 Q. In paragraphs 11 and 12 you have described
25 two sets of shots coming, one from the east and the
1 second set from the southeast. I am trying to find out
2 whether there was any time gap between the two sets?
3 A. Just seconds.
4 Q. Again, when you heard these three or four or
5 maybe more shots, did you see the strike of bullets on
6 the ground at all?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In the last sentence of that paragraph you
9 also mention "dozens of shots being fired from behind";
10 are we to take it that the shots that were coming from
11 the direction of Nailor's Row coincided with the shots
12 coming from behind you?
13 A. No, sir, there was a bit of a time gap.
14 Again, just seconds. The shooting from -- that was
15 coming up Rossville Street towards Free Derry Corner
16 was starting to die down a bit and it did appear to
17 stop.
18 Q. If we could now have paragraphs 13 down to 15
19 highlighted, please. What you say in paragraph 13 is
20 that glancing round you saw army vehicles and a dozen
21 soldiers coming into Rossville Street. You say that
22 the soldiers did not appear to be overly concerned by
23 the shooting; some were standing, some were walking
24 about and a couple may have been running.
25 Are we talking here of a very brief glance
1 behind you?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. In that glance, did the soldiers appear to
4 you to be trying to take cover at all?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you see any of them adopt a firing
7 position?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Paragraph 14, you say there that before you
10 got up you took a final glance behind you and you could
11 see a man by the rubble barricade.
12 "He was standing at one end of the rubble
13 barricade, although I cannot remember which.
14 I recognised the man but I did not know who he was.
15 I remember having seen him before and he always used to
16 wear an open white-necked shirt."
17 That should perhaps mean "open-necked white
18 shirt"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you saw that man standing at the end of
21 the rubble barricade, do you recall whether he had
22 anything in his hands?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is that no, he did not have anything in his
25 hands?
1 A. He possibly may have been waving a white
2 handkerchief.
3 Q. Is it still the position that you cannot
4 remember where on the rubble barricade you saw him
5 standing?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Can we look at AF35.1. This, Mr Friel, is
8 a typed version of a statement you gave on 1st February
9 1972 to the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association.
10 I know you have seen it and you say in your paragraph
11 25 that it broadly reflects your experiences on
12 Bloody Sunday. It is witnessed by EM Bowen, who was
13 your friend Martin Bowen.
14 For the transcript, the manuscript version of
15 this statement is actually appended to Mr Bowen's
16 statement at AB43.8.
17 I want to take this part of the statement and
18 take you to the fifth line down in the text and the
19 sentence beginning:
20 "I walked into Columbcille Court ..."
21 What you say there is:
22 "I walked into Columbcille Court, when
23 suddenly the crowd started running."
24 I will pause there to ask you this: reading
25 that, we know from your statement to this Inquiry that
1 you did go into Columbcille Court, that was to find out
2 news of people who had been shot. You then in your
3 statement to this Inquiry say you walked south down
4 Rossville Street. That line about walking into
5 Columbcille Court when suddenly the crowd started
6 running, could suggest that in 1972 your recollection
7 was that people were running at a much earlier stage.
8 Does that help you at all or does that trigger
9 a recollection?
10 A. That statement, at that time I was very
11 unfamiliar with the names of those actual --
12 Columbcille Court, Kells Walk, Glenfada. Although
13 I lived in the area I was very unfamiliar with the
14 names. That should actually read, "I walked into
15 Kells Walk".
16 Q. Is it your present recollection that up until
17 you had got some way down Rossville Street, you had not
18 heard any gunfire or seen any army vehicles or
19 soldiers?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. And you had not seen anybody running?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Let us carry on with this statement. It
24 says:
25 "When I reached Free Derry Corner a large
1 crowd had assembled. I could hear gunfire at this time
2 and the bullets hitting the wall behind me. Everyone
3 threw themselves on to the ground. The gunfire stopped
4 for a few seconds, so everyone stood up. I looked down
5 towards the Rossville Flats and could see the army
6 outside the flats. I also seen a person lying behind a
7 barricade outside the main door of the flats. He stood
8 up and threw his arms into the air. As he done this,
9 I heard more gunfire. I seen him fall to the ground
10 and I knew he was shot."
11 What that records is your recollection of
12 seeing someone stand up and throw their arms in the
13 air. That must be the same man that you describe in
14 your present statement to this Inquiry?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Do you remember someone standing up from
17 behind the rubble barricade?
18 A. I can still remember that, yes.
19 Q. Someone actually standing up from a lying
20 position or squatting position behind the barricade,
21 standing up?
22 A. I think the man was just possibly squatting.
23 Q. In there you also say that:
24 "A person lying outside the barricade outside
25 the main door of the flats."
1 That could be a reference to the barricade
2 being outside the main door of the flats. It could
3 also be taken to be a reference to the man, that the
4 man was outside the main door to the flats. We know
5 there were doors from block 1 of the flats on
6 Rossville Street. Does that help you at all with your
7 recollection with where on the rubble barricade this
8 man may have been standing?
9 A. No, as I say, I just seen the man at a very
10 brief glance.
11 Q. There is one last matter I want to ask you
12 about this statement. That is: you seem to say there
13 that you had reached Free Derry Corner before you saw
14 this person get shot. Your recollection in your
15 statement to this Inquiry is that you saw him shot and
16 then went to Free Derry Corner. Which do you think is
17 the more reliable recollection?
18 A. The more recent one.
19 Q. If we go back to paragraph 14 on AF35.4, you
20 say that you recognised the man, but did not know who
21 he was. Did you ever learn his name?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. What was his name?
24 A. Nash.
25 Q. Do you remember his first name?
1 A. William. I could not be 100 per cent sure
2 about his first name, but his second name is definitely
3 Nash.
4 Q. Can you tell us how old he was?
5 A. He would have been in his 40s then, possibly
6 older.
7 Q. Possibly older?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Can I show you a photograph? Before I do,
10 can I ask that this photograph simply be displayed on
11 the lawyers' and the Tribunal's and on the witness's
12 screen, please. It is P774.
13 Mr Friel, I am sorry to show you such
14 a distressing photograph, but I am wondering whether
15 the person that you saw may be in this photograph?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If we go back again to AF35.4, if we pick it
18 up again in the middle of paragraph:
19 "His hands were in the air and he seemed to
20 be waving at the army on Rossville Street."
21 I think a few minutes ago you said he may
22 have been waving a handkerchief. All of a sudden you
23 heard a crack. Does that mean the shooting had stopped
24 at the time that you saw this man at the barricade?
25 A. The main burst had stopped, but there were
1 odd shots still being fired.
2 Q. Where were these shots coming from?
3 A. They were from behind me, coming up
4 Rossville Street.
5 Q. From the north?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was this a distinct crack that you heard?
8 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
9 Q. Can you help us with where the sound of the
10 crack came from?
11 A. It would have came from possibly the gable
12 end of block 1 of the Rossville Street Flats.
13 Q. As you were looking back down
14 Rossville Street at this point, did you see anybody
15 shooting?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You say that:
18 "Then the man's right arm began to wobble
19 and it appeared to bend in the middle. Then he fell
20 down."
21 Can you help us, was there any lapse of time
22 between your hearing the crack and seeing this man fall
23 down?
24 A. No, it just happened in the same instant.
25 Q. Did he fall face down or fall backwards?
1 A. My recollection is that he actually sat
2 down. If I can clarify that, he sorta fell on his
3 backside.
4 Q. Did you see where he was hit?
5 A. Well, my impression at that time, that he had
6 been shot in the arm.
7 Q. You mention right arm, was it your impression
8 that it was the right arm?
9 A. It is my impression, yes.
10 Q. There is one final matter I want to pick up
11 on your 1972 statement. If we could have AF35.1 on the
12 screen again, please. Although you have told us that
13 in terms of the sequence of events you would prefer
14 your current statement rather than your 1972 statement,
15 there is one matter I would like to ask you about in
16 relation to what happened at Free Derry Corner. Again,
17 if I could pick it up at the line that begins:
18 "When I reached Free Derry Corner, a large
19 crowd had assembled. I could hear gunfire at this time
20 and the bullets hitting the wall behind me."
21 That is not mentioned in your statement to
22 this Inquiry. Do you have any recollection of bullets
23 hitting a wall whilst you were at Free Derry Corner?
24 A. I do not remember that now, no.
25 Q. I will leave it there. Can I move on,
1 please, to AF35.5, paragraph 18? In this paragraph you
2 are dealing with what happened the next day. You say
3 you saw bloodstains at the rubble barricade and at the
4 back of block 2 of the Rossville Flats where
5 Bernard McGuigan was killed:
6 "It was also the day after Bloody Sunday that
7 I saw Bernard McGuigan's eyelash on the southern wall
8 of block 2 of the Rossville Flats. I heard later that
9 someone had put it in a match box and placed it on the
10 ground. I also went back to have a look at the wall in
11 Joseph Place which I had seen hit by a bullet the day
12 before and I could see the mark the bullet had made in
13 the wall."
14 Would that be the northern gable wall that
15 you marked earlier on the photograph?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There is one matter, I am sorry to have to
18 ask you to do it, it is something that is important.
19 If I could have P312 on the screen, this is the
20 southern end of block 1 with the telephone box, it is
21 at the back of block 1, if that helps you to orientate
22 yourself. This is block 1; that is block 2.
23 (Indicating). If we could remove my arrows and give
24 Mr Friel control. What I would ask you to do, if you
25 can, is to please mark the wall on which you saw the
1 eyelash?
2 A. (Marked with blue arrow - AF35.15).
3 Q. Are you able to help us with whereabouts on
4 the wall it was?
5 A. It would be slightly lower, about a foot
6 lower than where that arrow is pointing.
7 Q. A foot lower than where the arrow is
8 pointing. Could we save that, please, as AF35.15? The
9 last question I want to ask you, Mr Friel: are you sure
10 that you saw this on the day after Bloody Sunday?
11 A. I am not absolutely sure, no, it could have
12 been the night of Bloody Sunday, I cannot remember.
13 Q. Those are all my questions.
14 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
15 MR CLARKE: Sir, just a few questions. My
16 name is Clarke and I appear on behalf of a number of
17 the soldiers. Mr Friel, when you met up with Martin
18 Gallagher after most of these events, do you remember
19 him being particularly upset?
20 A. Yes, I do, yeah.
21 Q. He gave evidence to this Tribunal on Day
22 100. We have his transcript from page 155 onwards.
23 I am not going to take you through it. He was beside
24 himself with anger, was he not?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. At the fact that there had been shooting back
2 at the army?
3 A. He was in a very, very emotional state
4 because of what had happened that day.
5 Q. He was fulminating aloud to you about the
6 cross-fire, both ways?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember where that happened, sir,
9 were there a crowd of people?
10 A. There were a few hundred people.
11 Q. He was not the centre of it, but he was
12 saying this in public?
13 A. No, he was saying this to me.
14 Q. To you, but in public?
15 A. In public, yes.
16 Q. Thinking back, that was not an unique
17 reaction, was it, there were a number of people
18 displaying the same sort of dismay and anger?
19 A. I would assume so, but I just focused on
20 Martin.
21 Q. Can I press you on this: it was not as if
22 Martin Gallagher -- Martin Gallagher was a steady
23 individual normally, was he not?
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. And was showing considerable anger and dismay
1 at what had happened, what he had witnessed?
2 A. We actually had an argument on that day over
3 --
4 Q. Over that?
5 A. Over that, yeah.
6 Q. In what sense?
7 A. He was convinced that the IRA had been
8 shooting at the army, where I was convinced that the
9 army had been shooting from the walls.
10 Q. Can I suggest, sir, that from that moment on
11 anyone who raised the question of IRA shooting was
12 immediately shouted down, were they not?
13 A. No.
14 Q. From then on?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you not one of the people who started
17 doing that, with Martin?
18 A. No, it was not a heated argument, it was --
19 as I remember it, Martin was very, very upset, not just
20 at what he believed to be the IRA shooting back, but
21 also about the army shooting.
22 Q. Of course, of course, I am not seeking to say
23 otherwise. But as soon as anyone like Martin raised
24 that topic, the majority of people would tell them they
25 were wrong, would they not?
1 A. I do not believe I ever said that or heard
2 anybody ever say that, no.
3 MR RAWAT: Sir, I have no more questions.
4 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Friel, thank you very much
5 indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 Mr Rawat, that exhausts our witnesses for
8 today, so we are going to end rather early. On the
9 other hand, we ended rather later last week, it is
10 probably a case of swings and roundabouts. We will
11 come back to the matter at 9.30, please.
12 MR RAWAT: If I can say in terms of witnesses
13 tomorrow, it is as per the list.
14 (2.00 pm)
15 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am
16 on Tuesday, 18th September 2001)
17 MS ATTRACTA BRADLEY, sworn........................... 1
18 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH............................ 1
19 Questioned by MR P CLARKE............................ 7
20 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 28
21 MR SAM GILLESPIE, sworn............................. 34
22 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................. 34
23 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD.......................... 69
24 Questioned by MR KENNEDY............................ 72
25 Questioned by MR GLASGOW............................ 73
1 MR JAMES AUGUSTINE O'KANE, sworn................... 101
2 Questioned by MS McGAHEY........................... 101
3 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 118
4 MR LEO FRIEL, sworn................................ 122
5 Questioned by MR RAWAT............................. 122
6 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 141
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