1 Thursday, 14th June 2001
2 (9.55 am)
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, before we get on
4 with our next witness, so that people can make travel
5 and similar arrangements, I can say we have manage to
6 arrange the meeting to which I referred yesterday
7 afternoon to take place on Monday, so that the hearings
8 in the Guildhall here will resume, not on Monday, but
9 at Tuesday at 9.30.
10 MR HUGH LOGUE, sworn
11 Questioned by MR CLARKE
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, I say this to all
13 the witnesses: the questions will come from the
14 barristers who sit in front of me. All I would ask you
15 to do at this stage is to try and remember to keep your
16 face reasonably close to that microphone in front of
17 you so that everybody is able to hear what you have to
18 say.
19 MR CLARKE: Mr Logue, do you have with you
20 your statement to this Tribunal, signed by you on
21 11th December last year?
22 A. I have, yes.
23 Q. I believe there are two corrections you would
24 like to make. If we go to paragraph 12.1, KL2.4, you
25 there say:
1 "Insom(?) attached refers to the split
2 between the Provisional and the Official IRA. I would
3 say that this was an accurate description. At that
4 time the Provisionals ..."; I understand you would like
5 that to read "the Provisional Republican movement was
6 going a certain way and the Officials remained with
7 NICRA."
8 Then it says:
9 "The Provisionals were in the
10 ascendancy ..."; I think you would like that to
11 read "the Provisional Republican movement was in the
12 ascendancy and the Officials in decline"; is that
13 right?
14 A. Almost, but not quite. At the time the
15 Provisional Republican movement was going a certain way
16 and the Official Republican Movement remained with
17 NICRA. It is only in reference to the previous
18 sentence where it says "the Provisional and the
19 Official IRA", and I wanted to make it clear that this
20 is a further thought. At the time the Provisional
21 Republican movement was going a certain way and the
22 Official Republican movement remained with NICRA,
23 otherwise I am satisfied.
24 Q. The second qualification, if we go to
25 paragraph 18, which may be found at KL2.7, the last
1 sentence as written reads:
2 "The Simon Winchester article attached, dated
3 18th April 1972, after the AGM of NICRA is largely an
4 accurate portrayal of the situation."
5 I think you would like to add the words:
6 "But not the headline"?
7 A. "The Simon Winchester article but not the
8 headline", yes.
9 Q. Subject to those two qualifications, are the
10 contents of this statement true to the best of your
11 knowledge and belief?
12 A. By and large, yes, I think so. Yes.
13 Q. We have all had the opportunity of reading
14 it, so I am only going to ask you some supplementary
15 questions in relation to it. You describe in
16 paragraphs 3 and 4 how you became involved with the
17 civil rights movement you were at Queens and were
18 yourself injured in the burn toll lit incident. That
19 was at the end of a march from Belfast to Derry; is
20 that right?
21 A. That is right, yes.
22 Q. You describe how you joined the North Derry
23 Civil Rights Association and, together with Finbar
24 O'Kane, and in 1970 he was the Chairman and you were
25 the Vice Chairman of that association and in 1971 you
1 were both elected to the Executive Committee of NICRA;
2 is that right?
3 A. That is right, yes.
4 Q. Did you remain Chairman and Vice Chairman of
5 the North Derry Civil Rights Association in 1971?
6 A. '71 and '72.
7 One other thing there, if I may, in terms of
8 paragraph 3: I only joined the march at Claudy. I had
9 not been in it from Belfast.
10 Q. You describe, in paragraph 5 in relation to
11 the North Derry Civil Rights Association, how neither
12 you nor Finbar O'Kane had any political alignment,
13 although you became a member of the SDLP.
14 You say that:
15 "Our populist inclusive leadership, prevented
16 members of the Official Republicans from gaining
17 authority"; that is in the North Derry Civil Rights
18 Association, is that right?
19 I want to ask you about the position in
20 relation to the national organisation, NICRA. If we
21 come to paragraph 9 at KL2.3, you describe in that
22 paragraph how there was no representation within NICRA
23 of Official party positions, but there were members
24 sympathetic to Official republicanism, communism and
25 non-alliance centre group, which included you,
1 Professor Kevin Boyle as he now is and Finbar O'Kane
2 and a small number sympathetic towards the Northern
3 Resistance Movement.
4 You describe how, by the end of 1971 the
5 Official Republican/Communist alliance within NICRA had
6 a small majority, but those of you who were in the
7 centre stayed on because you believe you could resist
8 any takeover and maintain the broadest possible
9 grouping in NICRA; is that right?
10 A. That is what I have said there.
11 Q. I assume it is correct?
12 A. Well, I think I should say that NICRA was an
13 umbrella body.
14 Q. Yes. Could we have on the screen GEN5.23?
15 I wonder if I could very quickly go through with you an
16 exercise that I have performed in relation to another
17 witness to identify the political alignment so far as
18 known of the Executive Committee. This is a NICRA
19 document. It is headed "State of the Executive
20 Committee". Its exact date is unknown, but it is
21 plainly post-internment because it refers to two people
22 as being interned and three people as being not
23 available. We understand that was because they were
24 trying to avoid being interned. It gives the list of
25 the elected representatives, the regional
1 representatives and a number of co-options. I am sure
2 there are a lot of names there are familiar to you.
3 If we go through them: Ivan Barr, am I right
4 in thinking that he was in the Official Republican
5 Movement?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. Frank Gogarty?
8 A. Was not, from what I recall.
9 Q. Was he any party alignment?
10 A. I do not think so.
11 Q. Edwina Stewart, we know was communist.
12 Ann Hope?
13 A. Ann Hope did not have alliances, but she
14 tended to vote similar to Edwina.
15 Q. Kevin Boyle, non-aligned.
16 Rebecca McGlade?
17 A. Had Republican, from what I recall.
18 Q. Andrew Boyd?
19 A. Was Northern Ireland Labour Party, I think.
20 Q. We know George Huxley was a professor at
21 Queens, but I think no particular political alignment?
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. Aidan Corrigan?
24 A. Would have been sympathetic, I think, to the
25 Northern -- what were they called, Northern Resistance
1 Movement.
2 Q. Yes. Des O'Hagan?
3 A. Republican Clubs.
4 Q. Malachy McGurran, Republican Clubs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Liam McMillen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The same, in other words?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Sam Dowling, the same?
11 A. I am not sure.
12 Q. Finbar O'Kane?
13 A. Non-aligned.
14 Q. Hugh Logue is you.
15 Rory McShane?
16 A. Non-aligned.
17 Q. John McClelland?
18 A. Non-aligned.
19 Q. Brigid Bond?
20 A. Would have voted by and large with the
21 Republican Clubs when it came to a vote, which there
22 were not all that many of.
23 Q. Jimmy Doris?
24 A. Non-aligned.
25 Q. Madge Davidson, we know was communist.
1 Dalton Kelly?
2 A. I always regarded as being sympathetic to the
3 Republican.
4 Q. Joe Deighan?
5 A. I thought he had sympathies with, along with
6 the Edwina -- the Communist Party line, I could not be
7 sure.
8 Q. That is what Edwina Stewart told us.
9 Miriam Daly?
10 A. I first met her in SDLP circles as far as
11 I recall and would, I think, eventually went much more
12 -- at that stage would have been non-aligned, but was
13 moving towards sympathy for Provisionals, I think.
14 Q. Bried Ruddy?
15 A. Again, non-aligned, but would have taken the
16 whip, shall I say, from the Republican side of things.
17 Q. Go back to paragraphs 6 and 7 of your
18 statement at KL2.2. You describe there on the
19 introduction of internment the North Derry Civil Rights
20 Association organised a series of demonstrations in
21 a number of villages in the North Derry area and two
22 demonstrations to the Magilligan camp which was being
23 prepared.
24 You describe how, on 16th August, you
25 participated with John Hume and Ivan Cooper in
1 a demonstration in Laburnam Terrace designed to prevent
2 army tanks rolling into the Bogside.
3 You do mean "tanks", do you, as opposed to
4 some other form of army vehicle?
5 A. These military vehicles were the size of
6 houses, so, tanks, I think they were, they were very
7 large -- they were not personnel carriers, the normal
8 kind of personnel carriers, they were tanks, yes.
9 LORD SAVILLE: We have pictures of what we
10 have been calling Pigs, which are pretty formidable
11 looking vehicles.
12 MR CLARKE: You describe how soldiers under
13 the command of Paddy Ashdown, who did well thereafter,
14 used water cannon and fired rubber bullets to disperse
15 the protest. This was the occasion which gave rise to
16 the celebrated Londonderry Justice's case, which you
17 describe in paragraph 8?
18 A. Yes, I mean Paddy Ashdown later acknowledged
19 that our sit down action was the most responsible
20 action that could have been taken on the day.
21 Q. Could we come, please, to paragraph 11 at
22 KL2.4?
23 A. May I, before we move on, going back to
24 paragraph 6 because I think there should be some
25 counterbalancing emphasis. The introduction of
1 internment, there was an immense anger and outrage in
2 the community and we had to confront it; there was no
3 way that it -- one could be rolled over by it, all the
4 more so in Magilligan where right -- the camps were
5 being set up in our very midst. So the challenge to us
6 was to see that the injustice that we regarded
7 internment as had to be confronted and we were clearly
8 determined, in a non-violent manner, to organise the
9 withdrawal of consent to be governed at that time.
10 So I think we have to see the context of it:
11 there was an immense sense of outrage at the time and
12 that should be borne in mind. Thank you.
13 Q. Could we then, please, come to paragraph 11
14 at KL2.4: you recite there how you have been asked
15 about the influence of the Official Republicans in
16 Derry and you say that, in the North Derry Civil Rights
17 Association they carried no authority and your
18 experience was that they carried no real clout in Derry
19 and that it was the Citizens Action Committee,
20 John Hume, Paddy "Bogside" Doherty, and Gary Cooper who
21 carried the real influence in the local community; is
22 that right?
23 A. That is right, yes.
24 Q. We know from the evidence that has
25 accumulated in this case that by the beginning of 1972
1 there had been quite a lot of violence in this city
2 from week to week.
3 Were you aware, in general terms, of the
4 extent of the paramilitary organisations in Derry in
5 late 1971/early 1972, simply the size?
6 A. I do not think I was aware of the size.
7 There was clearly activity and there was -- violent
8 incidents were occurring, but I had no idea of the
9 scale of it.
10 Q. We know in relation to the Provisionals that
11 Martin McGuinness was their adjutant.
12 Did you know who the leaders of the
13 Provisionals were in Derry, apart from him?
14 A. Apart from him, you say, the word was that
15 Martin McGuinness was in charge, or running the show.
16 Q. We have heard that too.
17 A. (Laughing) At the time.
18 Q. Did you know whether -- did you know any --
19 I do not mean know personally -- but did you know who
20 else was in the Provos leadership in late 1971/early
21 1972?
22 A. Not at all. One might have been aware that
23 families were sympathetic to them, but that would have
24 been as far as it would have gone.
25 Q. What about the Officials; did you know who
1 their leaders were in late 1971/1972?
2 A. No.
3 Q. In paragraph 12 you refer to a set of
4 intelligence summaries which you have been shown and
5 which we have obtained. In paragraph 12.2 you refer to
6 a paragraph in one of those intelligence summaries,
7 number 99, which comments that Kevin Agnew was actively
8 recruiting for the Provos and surmises that Kevin
9 Agnew's involvement in NICRA could mean that NICRA was
10 supporting the Provisionals and that such an
11 interpretation is absolutely incorrect; is that right?
12 A. That is what I have said there.
13 Q. That is right, is it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you know, if it was ever the case, that
16 Kevin Agnew was actively recruiting for the Provisional
17 IRA?
18 A. Can I say that I was astonished, generally,
19 at reading the military -- the summaries, intelligence
20 summaries, how hostile they were, how out of touch they
21 were, how even newspapers like the Irish News are
22 dismissed as Republican press, how people like
23 John Hume and Ivan Cooper are treated as if they are
24 fellow travellers and sympathisers with the Republican
25 movement.
1 As regards Trevor Agnew, Agnew participated
2 in platforms; he was on the street each day; he was
3 around. We had the -- you had the power of internment,
4 or the Government had the power of internment at that
5 time. If these Military Intelligence -- if they
6 believed their own Military Intelligence, they had the
7 opportunity to pick him up at any stage to interrogate
8 him. I do not think that ever happened.
9 So I have no faith in it whatsoever. He
10 could be a rather flamboyant speaker and cause perhaps
11 some embarrassment to NICRA and therefore you will find
12 that he was seldom on the North Derry platforms, but
13 there was no reason to believe -- and I still do not
14 believe -- that he was recruiting for the Provisionals
15 and if the army believed for one moment that he was,
16 they had the opportunity to take action on it; he was
17 not hidden or on the run.
18 Q. I think Kevin Agnew had been on the Executive
19 at the beginning of the 1971/72 year, but I think he
20 resigned and his place was taken by Finbar O'Kane, is
21 that right?
22 A. It was prior to my coming on the Executive.
23 Q. If we go to paragraph 12.4, at KL2.5, you say
24 that in general you found the comments contained in the
25 intelligence summaries to be wide of the mark since
1 they were attempting to illustrate a link between the
2 civil rights movement and the IRA; no such link, formal
3 or informal, existed.
4 Did you know that Liam McMillen, a member of
5 the NICRA Executive, was a prominent member of the
6 Belfast Official IRA?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Can I tell you why I am asking you that:
9 could we have on the screen LTL12? This is a passage
10 from the well-known book "Lost Lives" detailing the
11 deaths of everybody, civilian or Security Forces who
12 lost their lives in the troubles. This is the entry
13 that deals with the death of Billy McMillan on 28th
14 April 1975, and in the last two paragraphs in this
15 column it describes him as having held a key position
16 in Belfast republicanism and having been:
17 "One of the most respected IRA members in
18 west Belfast throughout the 1950s and 1960s as having
19 taken part in the IRA campaign of the 1950s and
20 interned for four years, standing in 1964 as the
21 Sinn Fein candidate for west Belfast."
22 If we could highlight the next column,
23 please: it describes how, during the period of
24 internment, he was described as one of the most wanted
25 men in Northern Ireland. In the next paragraph, it
1 describes how, over the period from 1971 to 1975 there
2 were at least three attempts on his life.
3 Did you know any of that, apart from the
4 obvious fact of him standing in the Sinn Fein interest
5 in the elections?
6 A. When you say -- I know it now that you have
7 told it to me, that he was one of the most wanted men.
8 There were quite a number of people who would have been
9 sought after by -- post-internment.
10 Q. May I take you back to the previous stage in
11 terms of -- this is the first time I have seen this,
12 but I note that in the paragraph above you say, it said
13 that McMillan was trying to -- where was it, "negotiate
14 a cease-fire". Can we have the top?
15 A. "His death came as he was apparently
16 attempting to negotiate a cease-fire in a Republican
17 feud."
18 I did not know him very well. At meetings he
19 did not say a lot, but so long as people were signed up
20 to non-violence I was ready to welcome them and,
21 therefore, I would have assumed he was signed up to
22 non-violence when he was on our Executive.
23 Q. You were not aware that attempts had been
24 made on his life in 1971, or at some time after 1971?
25 A. Well, if I was, I have forgotten.
1 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 13 and 14
2 on KL2.5: you describe in paragraph 13 how one of the
3 groups involved in NICRA was the Northern Resistance
4 Movement whose objective appeared to be to make the
5 aims of NICRA more Catholic orientated and wished to
6 focus on Catholic rights, thereby adopting a sectarian
7 approach to civil rights with which the North Derry
8 Civil Rights Association did not agree."
9 What are Catholic rights?
10 A. They were wanting to concentrate on
11 discrimination against Catholics and that appeared to
12 me, as I say there, to adopt a sectarian approach,
13 whereas on all my time on the NICRA Executive I do not
14 recall anyone advocating a sectarian approach, a
15 sectarian sentiment; there was not a sectarian fibre in
16 the body of NICRA.
17 Might I also say that I never recall anyone
18 proposing any proposal to act violently or anyone
19 supporting violence with references to Mr McMillan or
20 any of the rest of them. I never remember that around
21 the table at NICRA.
22 Q. May we come to KL2.6, paragraph 15: in this
23 paragraph you refer to the use of stewards and NICRA's
24 involvement with stewards. You make the qualification
25 that that was not something that you were ever directly
1 involved in organising, but you say that your
2 perception is that:
3 "The NICRA Executive appointed a Chief
4 Steward for the march, plus several assistants, and
5 that it was then the responsibility of the Chief
6 Steward and his helpers to multiply their numbers."
7 How strong is that perception; was that
8 always so? The reason I am asking is we have the
9 impression, at any rate in relation to the Derry march,
10 that the stewarding was dealt with at local level and
11 we have not heard, I think, before of a NICRA Executive
12 appointed chief steward for the march?
13 A. I think that may not be -- that is in danger
14 of misleading you when I say "the NICRA Executive
15 appointed a Chief Steward for the march". They would
16 have sought to ensure a chief steward was appointed.
17 For example in the North Derry march to Magilligan we
18 had appointed Vincent McMahon as our chief steward for
19 the march, together with some of the other stewards
20 I have mentioned there, and they would then have
21 secured other people. That is the basis, Mr Clarke,
22 that I am responding from -- okay.
23 Q. They would have seen to it that there was one
24 without necessarily appointing one themselves?
25 A. They would have satisfied themselves that one
1 was there and that they had confidence in him.
2 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 17 at
3 KL2.6? This is in the portion of your statement
4 dealing with the civil rights marches and the
5 possibility of IRA involvement. You describe in
6 paragraph 17, in the second sentence, how, if it was
7 the case that NICRA sought any assurances from the
8 Provisional IRA prior to the Derry march, you were not
9 informed of this nor aware of it at the time.
10 Does the same hold good for the Official IRA?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Were you aware of the Derry Civil Rights
13 Association seeking some sort of assurance or
14 indication from either paramilitary wing?
15 A. Only long after the event.
16 Q. You were not aware at the time.
17 May we then come, please, to paragraph 19 on
18 KL2.7 which deals with the Magilligan march which, as
19 you say, was organised by the North Derry Civil Rights
20 Association, though, as I understand it, under the
21 auspices, as it were, of NICRA; is that right?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. You were obviously there. We have heard
24 quite a lot of evidence about it and I do not want to
25 go into that in any detail, but could I come to KL2.9?
1 You describe at the top of that page, KL2.9,
2 how, as the march approached the barbed wire, hastily
3 erected by the army banning your way along the beach,
4 the soldiers opened up with rubber bullets and came
5 towards you wielding batons.
6 Was that because some of the protesters had
7 tried to get into the fenced-off area by going round
8 the fence where it gave out at the high water mark?
9 A. That might be what the army would say. What
10 happened, I think, was that the wire was hastily placed
11 across the beach down, as you say, to the high water
12 mark, indeed into the water, and some people would have
13 ran towards the sea to get around that point before the
14 barricade prevented them.
15 Q. Were they laying the barbed wire as the march
16 approached?
17 A. They were extending it.
18 Q. Extending it?
19 A. Extending it.
20 Q. May we come, then, to the Derry march itself
21 and may we look, please, at KL2.10?
22 You describe in paragraph 26 how you were not
23 asked to take part in the organisation of the march,
24 save to ask John Hume to participate. I assume you did
25 ask him to do so; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was the upshot?
3 A. Well, you have asked me there a number of
4 questions. I had not participated in the organisation
5 because, on 7th January where it was decided to hold
6 the meeting, I was not at that meeting, in fact I was
7 on my honeymoon, and at the meeting on 14th I was
8 asked. It was probable that I indicated that John Hume
9 might not participate, and I notice from the minutes of
10 the NICRA meeting that a fallback of Ivan Cooper,
11 I think that would have come from me, suggesting that
12 if Hume was not available -- because as far as I can
13 recall from the NICRA minutes there is nowhere else is
14 there a fallback speaker suggested.
15 What was the upshot of asking John Hume?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I think it was probable I would have asked
18 Hume about Magilligan and Derry at the same time. He
19 would have agreed to Magilligan because he had a great
20 deal of confidence, or he had a considerable amount of
21 confidence, in the North Derry Civil Rights
22 Association, a confidence that did not fully extend to
23 the Derry Civil Rights Association. He agreed to
24 Magilligan.
25 I recall us debating would we set out on the
1 road or on the beach. He was very keen to take the
2 paths that would take us off the road and down to the
3 beach because that would be a legal march, and I think
4 at that point I came away with the view that I would
5 bag the Magilligan attendance and wait to see if he
6 would attend later the Derry one, but I already had
7 doubts that he would do Derry.
8 Q. We know that in the event he did not. Do you
9 know why he did not; did he tell you why he was not
10 going to?
11 A. I should say that John Hume was a person for
12 whom I have the highest respect; he is a man of immense
13 moral, physical and political courage; I have not met
14 his like. When he indicated that he had doubts, his
15 primary doubts, I think at that time were about the
16 organisers, not so much, I think, their competence in
17 terms of stewarding or anything like that because there
18 had been a number of marches in Derry which he had
19 participated, some of which had been banned over the
20 time and all had been very well stewarded by the
21 Catholic ex-servicemen, by a range of groupings within
22 the city and I think his doubts rested really with the
23 Civil Rights Association in this city, from which he
24 was alienated.
25 Q. We had a witness yesterday, Mr Havord, who
1 was the Press Officer of the Association who told the
2 Tribunal that John Hume had said to him, Mr Havord,
3 that he regarded the Derry CRA as politically
4 dangerous?
5 A. I saw that view -- what was said yesterday
6 and if John Hume said that, John Hume said that.
7 I think that the further interpretation that John Hume
8 was not in any way politically nervous of them in terms
9 of opposition is without foundation. As far as
10 I recall, many of that group that were then
11 pro-Republican Clubs in the city ran in the next
12 election after Bloody Sunday. I would doubt if they
13 saved their deposit. Mr Hume, Mr Canavan and myself
14 were elected.
15 Q. We can tell from your previous answers fairly
16 recently the minutes that have survived of the NICRA
17 Executive on 7th January and 14th January 1972. We
18 have had some evidence that there was a meeting of the
19 NICRA Executive on 28th January, which was the Friday
20 which would be its normal time to meet.
21 Do you remember whether you were present at a
22 meeting, the Friday immediately before the march?
23 A. I should say I have only seen the minutes in
24 recent times, very recent times, when the statements of
25 other participants have, or other witnesses have been
1 given to me and I did not have them at the time I was
2 making my own statement or any corrections to my
3 statement.
4 My recollection is that I was there.
5 I cannot be certain that I was there, but I notice that
6 George Huxley says that he chaired a meeting and
7 I recall a meeting that George Huxley chaired. I think
8 I would have been there as well on the basis of giving
9 information about the participants and -- but I do not
10 recall a great deal about the meeting.
11 Q. We know that in the event the march did not
12 attempt to go through the barricades at the east end of
13 William Street, but the lorry turned off, taking a
14 right-hand turn, going down Rossville Street to Free
15 Derry Corner.
16 Do you remember when that was mooted? It may
17 not matter much precisely when it was; do you happen to
18 remember?
19 A. I cannot be sure.
20 Q. We know also that on 14th January meeting
21 there was a delegation from Derry who were reporting
22 back about the march, four or five members of the
23 Executive having been sent to Derry, as it were,
24 following the meeting of 7th January.
25 Do you have any recollection of the delegates
1 and the subcommittee, as it were, reporting of the
2 state of the organisation of the march on Derry?
3 A. Can I say a couple of points, if I may
4 there: I noticed in, I think it was Professor Boyle's,
5 that I was a member of that; I was not, and Kevin now
6 accepts that I was not a member of that. I can plead
7 honeymoon again there at that meeting, so I was not a
8 member of that grouping. I do not remember much of the
9 detail in terms of the group that gave -- that attended
10 the 14th January meeting. I suspect that they were
11 brought along and it was often in the nature that they
12 would have come and been pleased to be there but would
13 not have said very much at the meeting, they would have
14 left it to whoever was coming.
15 I do recall now on the 28th meeting, and
16 I think I made reference to it in my statement
17 somewhere, that I would have been advising that the
18 potential threat of the counter demonstration was
19 nothing to take serious and that it was unlikely, and
20 I think there would have been still a degree of
21 resolution in nearly everyone, and certainly in myself
22 and a number of others, that we should go to the
23 Guildhall because the Guildhall would have been out of
24 the ghetto and the Guildhall, as far as I recall, we
25 had had a demonstration directly post-internment, a
1 very ad hoc, very quick demonstration, about 14th, 15th
2 August of that year in which Finbar O'Kane participated
3 as well, and it was important to claim the Guildhall
4 for subliminal reasons in terms of the Commission
5 coming into this city and what this building
6 represented.
7 Q. Did you say it was important to claim the
8 Guildhall?
9 A. Claim the Guildhall Square in sofar as it
10 should not be -- I do not mean in any sense of victory
11 or I do not mean exclusively, but I think we should not
12 be denied is what I am saying, the Guildhall.
13 Q. Were you proposing to come into the
14 Guildhall?
15 A. No, sorry, I am using shorthand for the
16 Guildhall Square.
17 Q. I wanted to make clear what you said.
18 May we come to the day itself and could I ask
19 you to look at paragraph 32, which is at KL2.11? You
20 describe the march proceeding down William Street,
21 seeing barbed wire and barricades, thinking that all
22 the surrounding streets were barricaded so there was
23 only one way forward and having the impression that
24 most people would have known to turn right no
25 Rossville Street.
1 May I ask you this: when you started on the
2 march, where did you think the march was going to end
3 up?
4 A. It is a good question. (Pause) I suppose
5 there still was the hope that it would get to the
6 Guildhall.
7 Q. But you saw, presumably, the -- by the time
8 you had got to the junction the lorry and the march had
9 already turned down, had they?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. When you say, therefore, that you had the
12 impression that most people would have known to turn
13 right into Rossville Street, do you mean by that that
14 you reckoned that when the lorry turned, as in the
15 event it did, most people would go with it?
16 A. I mean, reflecting on your previous question:
17 I had no great sense of disappointment or frustration
18 that our way was blocked. Clearly, I would have
19 preferred the Guildhall, and I think we fully expected
20 people to follow the lorry.
21 There was, from what I remember, a row of
22 stewards across the, at William Street, particularly
23 covering the pavements. There was also a barricade,
24 was there not, of some sort?
25 Q. It depends where you mean by
1 "William Street"; there was an army barricade at the
2 end of William Street as it turns to go towards the
3 Guildhall Square.
4 A. At the junction of William Street stewards
5 were encouraging people to go down.
6 Q. At the junction of William Street and where?
7 A. Rossville Street.
8 Q. There was not a barricade there?
9 A. No, but there was a group of stewards there.
10 Across and behind them there would have been -- further
11 back down William Street there was a barricade.
12 Q. At the time you got there, you saw stewards
13 at the junction, but behind them, as I understand it,
14 and further east down William Street, rioting was
15 already going on at the army barricade?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Had the NICRA Executive considered the
18 possibility or likelihood of there being rioting at a
19 barricade if it was placed at the end of
20 William Street?
21 A. They never for one moment contemplated that
22 there would be gunfire, it would have been crazy and it
23 never crossed their mind, despite Magilligan, that
24 gunfire would open, otherwise people would not have
25 been brought onto the streets.
1 As for rioting, I do not think they
2 contemplated that either. There had been, on the other
3 hand, at previous demonstrations what the army referred
4 to as "aggro" after marches, at the fringes of it and,
5 I suppose, to use an army phrase "there was an
6 acceptable level of aggro" basically that might have
7 been tolerated, but it was not encouraged, in fact it
8 had been wholly deplored by the Civil Rights
9 Association.
10 Q. Did the Civil Rights Association consider any
11 ways or means by which aggravation, "aggro", could be
12 avoided?
13 A. Other than trying to prevent it through
14 stewards, no.
15 Q. Did it have any plan as to how exactly it
16 would prevent it through stewards?
17 A. I think you encouraged the young people to
18 move in the direction of the march and to stay with the
19 march and to desist from taking on the soldiers, that
20 it was counterproductive and that was the only means we
21 had; we only had non-violent means.
22 Q. Some of the witnesses who have given evidence
23 from the NICRA Executive have suggested that the plan
24 was that the lorry would turn right down
25 Rossville Street -- this is if there was a barricade in
1 William Street, as in the event there was -- the plan
2 was that the lorry would turn right down William Street
3 and access to the east end of William Street would be
4 prevented by a row of stewards and two people from
5 NICRA would go to the end of William Street, and them
6 alone, to make a protest at the barricade.
7 Do you remember any discussion of some such
8 plan?
9 A. I do not recall the detail -- sorry, I do not
10 recall the detail of it, but it would have had a
11 precedent in terms of earlier marches which John Hume
12 had led in Derry on the bridge, where a token breach of
13 the barricade took place where two people would walk
14 forward and climb across the barrier and make their
15 protest and that satisfied everyone; that had been
16 negotiated in the past.
17 So it does not surprise me that that was, but
18 I do not recall it.
19 Q. You do not recall it. Your answer may be the
20 same to this question in the light of what you have
21 said, but do you recall anybody in the NICRA Executive
22 giving any consideration to the number of stewards that
23 might be needed at what could be a critical point,
24 namely the junction between Rossville Street and
25 William Street if people were to be prevented from
1 going down to the east end of William Street and
2 reaching the barricade?
3 A. I think you are assuming a level of
4 discussion at the NICRA Executive about the innards of
5 a march which never really took place, it would have
6 been done at the local organisation level and that
7 would have been between the organiser and the Derry
8 CRA, and certainly in our experience in relation to
9 Magilligan our assurances would have been fully
10 accepted and there would have been no particular
11 investigation into how or why.
12 Q. Do I express it fairly by saying it this way:
13 NICRA regarded that sort of matter as the
14 responsibility of the local Civil Rights Association?
15 A. In conjunction with their chief organiser,
16 McCorry, I would have thought. His word would have
17 carried the day.
18 Q. You describe in paragraph 33 stopping at the
19 junction of William Street and Rossville Street.
20 Could we go down to paragraph 35 on the next
21 page: looking around for Finbar O'Kane, hearing rioting
22 and tear gas being fired at the east end of
23 William Street and being approached by three man and a
24 woman to ask if you could help somebody who had been
25 hit in the face by a gas cannister and then helping him
1 down to the flats, or they helped him down to the flats
2 at your suggestion, and you walked in front of the
3 group that was holding him; is that right?
4 A. That is right, yes.
5 Q. I wonder if I could show you a photograph;
6 could we have on the screen P783? Did you cover the
7 name of the injured man, no?
8 A. No, I still do not know his name.
9 Q. Does that photograph bring back any memories?
10 A. I cannot be sure, the hair is accurate.
11 I thought there was -- did I say two men and a woman or
12 a woman and a man.
13 Q. You said three men and a woman. You said you
14 were approached by three men and a woman; your
15 statement does not specifically say how many took him
16 down?
17 A. In that photograph I cannot see his face, can
18 you?
19 Q. No, his face is, I am afraid, hidden by his
20 hair. There is another one, P784; I do not know
21 whether that is any better. No, that is worse. You
22 cannot positively identify?
23 A. No.
24 Q. May we come to paragraphs 35 and 36, KL2.12.
25 You describe -- it is the very end of paragraph 34, we
1 need not turn it up -- how, as you got to block 1 of
2 the flats, the group who were with the injured man
3 began to run and overtook you, having seen what was
4 coming behind them and you all ran to the stairwell and
5 as you reached the bottom of the stairwell at the north
6 of block 1, about three APCs drove at speed into the
7 car park and people started to shout and scream.
8 Before then had you been conscious that the
9 army were coming into the Bogside?
10 A. No, before then my only awareness of the army
11 was the army on -- the aggro that was going on on
12 William Street, the gas and that, but I was not aware,
13 no.
14 Q. You describe going up the steps, somebody
15 shouting that "they are shooting" and when you got two
16 or three steps further, turning round and looking
17 through the slats in the stairwell and seeing the three
18 APCs in the car park, the third of which came to a halt
19 at about the point you have marked "B" on your map
20 attached to your statement which is at the mouth of the
21 car park. We can see it there.
22 I would like to show you a photograph, P188,
23 please: this is a photograph taken on the day a bit
24 later in time than the events that you are immediately
25 describing. Is that the sort of view that you saw from
1 the slats of the --
2 A. Where am I? That is the stairwell, is it?
3 Q. The stairwell of the flats is there, you can
4 see the slats. There looks to be an armoured personnel
5 carrier in almost exactly the position that you are
6 talking about?
7 A. Well, there were three of them.
8 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you about
9 because we know, from this photograph and others, that
10 the initial location of the army vehicles when they
11 came into the Bogside was that one of them came here,
12 that is to say to the mouth of the car park; one of
13 them went up over on the right-hand side, it is not in
14 the photograph, but went up to have its front facing
15 the back of one of the Chamberlain Street houses; but
16 the rest of them, at an early stage -- and it looks as
17 if we are talking about an early stage -- were in line,
18 almost in line abreast along Rossville Street. There
19 is a soft-skinned lorry there.
20 You have a recollection of seeing three at
21 the mouth of the car park, do you?
22 A. The three I saw, they swept in and you see
23 where you have the two red arrows, they were there,
24 sweeping in there. One of them may have come round
25 there, I think, and two -- but the three were sweeping
1 in, initially, in that form and soldiers were
2 disembarking from them before the vehicles became
3 stationary.
4 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, could I ask a
5 question, please? Mr Logue, to your right: when you
6 say "swept in", did any of the three Saracens actually
7 enter that car park area that you can see on the
8 photograph as opposed to being at the mouth of the
9 entrance?
10 A. What I saw, sir, was -- I did not see any
11 coming into that car park, other than where that one
12 there would be. They would have stopped and the other
13 two, I think, would have been behind that.
14 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, are you going to show
15 Mr Logue that photograph with the Saracen at the back
16 of Chamberlain Street?
17 MR CLARKE: I will, I am going to show him
18 another one initially.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, I wanted to ask
20 a similar question because your written statement says
21 "I saw the three aforementioned APCs stopping in the
22 car park", and I was wondering whether you used the
23 expression "car park" to include this marked-out area
24 we see in this photograph and also at least some of the
25 wasteground behind. I was not quite sure what you
1 meant by "stopping in the car park"?
2 A. Are there slats both sides there; I am
3 looking at them through the slats?
4 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I think there are, are
5 there not; there are slats to the north as well as to
6 the east?
7 MR CLARKE: Yes.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, is the answer?
9 A. I am looking through the slats and I had
10 always assumed that they were out on the corner as it
11 were rather than, and that is car park as well.
12 MR CLARKE: Could we have EP28.4A: this is a
13 photograph taken on the day. You can see that a lot of
14 people are fleeing to the south, to the middle block --
15 towards the middle block or towards the alleyways
16 between the block of flats.
17 Firstly, when you went to the stairwell,
18 which to orientate you is there, were there
19 approximately this number of people or more or less?
20 A. A good deal less.
21 Q. Less?
22 A. And that is Rossville Street behind where you
23 are.
24 Q. That is Rossville Street behind. We can see
25 in this photograph that one of the APCs came across
1 there, where I am pointing out, and I believe -- though
2 the photographs may be open to interpretation -- that
3 that is the Pig which ended up off the picture, up
4 facing towards Chamberlain Street.
5 If one looks at EP28.5, which is the next
6 photograph in the sequence; some more vehicles are
7 coming down Rossville Street, we can see them there,
8 and it may be that the vehicle that ended up at the
9 mouth of the car park is actually at this very moment
10 coming out of the top of the block 1 of the flats.
11 What appears then to have happened is that
12 one vehicle ended up in the photograph that I showed
13 you a moment ago at the mouth of the car park,
14 approximately where the red arrow on the screen is and
15 the other vehicle which went to the back of
16 Chamberlain Street, if we could have a look at
17 photograph P594, ended up, as we can see it in this
18 photograph, facing a building at the back of
19 Chamberlain Street just below Eden Place, which is
20 there.
21 Does that bring back any recollection; do you
22 remember seeing a vehicle drive towards the back of
23 Chamberlain Street quite some way away from the car
24 park?
25 A. If you can go back about two photographs,
1 I would like, if I can -- if you could go back two
2 photographs --
3 Q. EP28.4A, please.
4 A. -- I think I can answer your question,
5 Mr Clarke, and also deal with the question that was
6 raised by the Chairman. You see where this Pig is,
7 that is what I regarded, and in my statement when I say
8 "the car park", that is the space into which I saw the
9 three arrive. It was the third one from which the
10 soldiers were disembarking. Now it obviously became
11 stationary. I cannot say if the first or the second
12 stopped there, or whether, as you are inquiring,
13 whether they moved further along: three came in, the
14 soldiers were disembarking from the third one and it
15 was by and large located -- and it was out of those
16 slats that I would have been looking in that direction.
17 Q. You saw three coming into the area where
18 approximately your blue arrow is. One of them stopped
19 at the mouth; what happened to the other two you are
20 less sure of; is that right?
21 A. As I say, they moved forward. Perhaps my
22 statement, when I say "the car park", is misleading
23 insofar as that I am not talking about this territory,
24 I am talking about the territory -- is that immediately
25 northwest, or?
1 Q. Do not worry about the direction?
2 LORD SAVILLE: It is more or less north in
3 fact.
4 MR CLARKE: You say "the other two moved
5 forward"?
6 A. This was a third one, this is a momentary
7 glance through the slats and the three are sweeping
8 in -- I should say the three were sweeping in over my
9 shoulder off Rossville Street, coming in, if I have --
10 coming in like so, in a circle and the three seemed to
11 be stopping, but the one I saw, the soldier, disembark
12 from was a third one, the latter one.
13 Q. Did the three appear to you to stop fairly
14 close to each other?
15 A. They appeared to, within a matter of metres
16 of each other.
17 Q. May we then come, please, to KL2.13,
18 paragraphs 37 to 39? You describe there proceeding
19 south along the balcony of block 1, trying to enter the
20 first door, opening it and as you did so, hearing a
21 single shot which made a very sharp sound and appeared
22 to come from behind you to the north.
23 Is that the first shot that you heard that
24 day?
25 A. That is the first shot I heard. I am not
1 saying it was the first shot because, as I am coming up
2 the stairs, someone said "there is shooting".
3 Q. When somebody said that they were shooting,
4 did you have a recollection of hearing any noise at
5 all?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Had you heard the sound of rubber bullets
8 before you heard the single shot which you describe in
9 this paragraph?
10 A. Certainly at the corner of Rossville Street,
11 and I could not be sure whether it was rubber bullets
12 or gas cannisters, but there was certainly that duller
13 thud, yeah.
14 Q. When you were in Rossville Street coming down
15 to block 1 with the injured man, were you conscious of
16 hearing any rubber bullets in the wasteground or
17 anywhere like that?
18 A. I cannot recall distinguishing rubber bullets
19 from the general melee that there was.
20 Q. Would I be right to assume there was really
21 quite a lot of noise going on?
22 A. That is a correct presumption, yes.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, the Chairman again,
24 you may not be able to answer this: do you have any
25 idea which balcony you got onto?
1 A. I got onto the first balcony, I am pretty
2 sure I was on the first balcony. I am not sure,
3 Chairman -- I say there I tried to enter the first
4 door, it may have been the second; the first one that
5 opened, I think.
6 LORD SAVILLE: You think it was probably the
7 first balcony?
8 A. I think it was the first balcony, yes.
9 MR CLARKE: You describe in the succeeding
10 paragraphs how, once you had got into the flat you lay
11 on the floor with a sense of relief, more people dived
12 in, spread themselves around the room on their hands
13 and knees and you heard shots to the front, that is to
14 say to the side of the flat which overlooked
15 Rossville Street and there was then a lull and you
16 looked out of the window and saw a soldier lying flat
17 on the ground with his rifle slightly elevated,
18 pointing south towards Free Derry Corner at the spot
19 that you have marked as "C".
20 May we look at KL2.28. Sorry KL2. --
21 LORD SAVILLE: It is KL2.38 in our bundles.
22 MR CLARKE: Somebody has helpfully numbered
23 mine 28. The spot you have marked as "C" is just to
24 the side of the pram ramp at the north end of
25 Glenfada Park North; is that right?
1 A. I cannot be sure of where the pram ramps were
2 and "C" may have been a metre either way. What I do
3 recall was that there was something like a ridge wall.
4 The soldier was lower than a ridge wall, I think, that
5 was alongside there.
6 Q. Did you see any other soldier at that stage?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Or any army vehicles?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You describe in paragraph 39, KL2.13 --
11 A. If I may, you asked me there a moment ago did
12 I see any other soldiers or anyone; I am not saying
13 there was not any out in front, but my height above, my
14 eye is just above the windowsill, I would not have been
15 able to see directly below me onto the flats and ...
16 Q. You describe in paragraph 40 how the soldier
17 did not appear to feel himself under any threat or to
18 take cover.
19 If we go to paragraph 41 on the next page you
20 describe hearing a single shot and lowering your head
21 and the shot appeared to come from his direction; is
22 that right?
23 A. That is what I said, yes.
24 Q. Should we understand from that that there
25 appeared to be a shot fired towards the block in which
1 you were, or simply you heard the noise of a shot and
2 the noise appeared to come from where the soldier was
3 whom you had seen?
4 A. My impression would have been that the shot
5 was towards the Free Derry Corner. I do not know why
6 that was my impression, but I had no sense that they
7 were firing at me or us.
8 Q. If we could take paragraphs 43 to 46: you
9 describe remaining on the floor until Father Irwin came
10 and then subsequently, see paragraph 5 walking down the
11 stairs with Father Irwin and seeing a body near the
12 bottom of the stairwell, which you think was Kevin
13 McElhinney.
14 Did you know Kevin McElhinney?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So why do you think it was him?
17 A. I learned afterwards that it was. I learned
18 afterwards that that was probably who it was of the 13.
19 Q. You went out of the flats and saw the body of
20 Barney McGuigan and you helped to carry
21 Barney McGuigan, and the man you believe is Kevin
22 McElhinney, to the ambulance and got into the passenger
23 side; is that right?
24 A. I moved round to the passenger side to --
25 because there was a breach in the divide of the
1 ambulance, from what I remember, where you would have
2 communicated and I was still involved in organising or
3 trying to accommodate bodies in the ambulance.
4 Q. If we go to paragraph 48, you describe there
5 how, after you had gone to the passenger side of the
6 van to assist from there, the shooting started again
7 and you think that one shot came from the Free Derry
8 Corner and one from the city or William Street side.
9 You describe the sounds of those shots as varied, one
10 made a duller sound and the other made a sharper
11 sound.
12 Can you remember from which side the duller
13 side appeared to come?
14 A. I cannot be sure.
15 Q. Do you have any idea?
16 A. Um, I suspect that the duller sound came from
17 my left-hand side, which would have been the Free Derry
18 Corner.
19 Q. If we look at EP2.19, and if we look at the
20 man in the ambulance -- can we highlight that on the
21 left-hand side, please -- I understand you think that
22 that may be you?
23 A. I think it is.
24 Q. Had the shooting taken place, do you think,
25 before this photograph was taken?
1 A. I think definitely not because when the
2 shooting started to take place, I get on my knees on
3 the edge of the van, get my head under a seat and the
4 ambulance moves off while I am in that position while
5 the shooting is going on.
6 Q. If we could restore the whole of this
7 photograph. This photograph and a number of others
8 show the late Father Mulvey?
9 A. Indeed.
10 Q. He is in fact waving a handkerchief and there
11 is a series of photographs in which he walks further
12 north, that is to say further towards William Street.
13 It looks as if what he was doing, there is some
14 evidence he was, trying to stop people shooting because
15 there was an ambulance which needed to take people to
16 hospital. You would not have seen that, I assume
17 because, as we can see if that is you, you are sitting
18 in the ambulance facing Free Derry Corner.
19 Were you conscious of Father Mulvey being
20 there?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you very much, those are my questions.
23 Questioned by SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER
24 SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER: Mr Logue, just a few
25 questions. Could I first deal with your credentials:
1 for the last 15 years or so you have been working at
2 European Commission in Brussels, is that right?
3 A. 1984 to 1989 -- sorry, 1984 to 1999, yes.
4 Q. Variously acting as advisor to Presidents of
5 the Commission?
6 A. When it came to the peace package, I was an
7 advisor to both President Delors and then subsequently
8 for the next passage to President Santerre in the
9 construction of the peace and reconciliation packages
10 which you were provided.
11 Q. Being back to the early 1970s, you were
12 involved with the SDLP; is that right?
13 A. I was not when I joined the civil rights
14 movement and, even when I joined the Northern Ireland
15 Civil Rights Executive, that I became more and more
16 involved -- yes, I was a member of the first Executive,
17 which, I think, was by 1972.
18 Q. In 1973 did you stand and be elected to the
19 National Assembly on behalf of the SDLP?
20 A. I was, yeah.
21 Q. In 1974 did you stand as a Parliamentary
22 candidate for Westminster in the United Kingdom general
23 election?
24 A. For the SDLP.
25 Q. As an SDLP candidate?
1 A. I did, yeah.
2 Q. I assume from that period you had close
3 association with John Hume?
4 A. John Hume was the first person to mention to
5 me that I might seek a nomination for the SDLP.
6 Q. It was, presumably as a result of that period
7 of time, in the early 1970s, that you acquired the
8 great admiration for him which you expressed earlier?
9 A. Respect, I think, for him and over the years,
10 yeah.
11 Q. Can I now ask you to look at GEN5.29? This
12 is the second of the two January meetings which were
13 held by the Executive Committee at which you attended.
14 That is the one for 14th January?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You see your name there?
17 A. Yes, indeed.
18 Q. Would you then turn to page 30 and you will
19 see there a discussion, the first item on the agenda;
20 that is 29. Over on page 30 there was a discussion
21 about the disruption day; that would have been 9th
22 February, would it not?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And there were arrangements there for some
25 demonstration to take place and you were responsible,
1 I think it looks as if you are responsible for
2 arranging matters in Tyrone; is that right?
3 A. My primary responsibility is, I think, a
4 little lower where -- Derry county as well, yes.
5 Q. Would you turn over the page to 31: you will
6 see there a decision by the Executive Committee not to
7 meet with the Northern Resistance Committee again.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Am I right in assuming that you were one of
10 the six?
11 A. I suspect I was, insofar as I had agreed to
12 meet them once, and had met them once and had been
13 disillusioned by the direction that they were going.
14 Q. Would I be right in inferring from that, as a
15 demonstration of NICRA's determination to maintain its
16 independence and not to be associated with any
17 organisation, which did not in fact promote peaceful
18 non-violence?
19 A. If I may take a moment on that --
20 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, Mr Logue,
21 I would certainly like you to give a little bit of
22 explanation as to what direction you thought at the
23 time they were going?
24 A. Well, Chairman, the prospect of dealing with
25 them, the Northern Resistance Committee or Movement --
1 I think, NCM -- any attraction that it had essentially
2 was a geographic attraction because they were much
3 better based in South Tyrone, the Dungannon area; they
4 were much better based in Fermanagh. The
5 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was very
6 poorly organised in those areas and had some difficulty
7 mobilising, so from a geographic reason there would
8 have been an interest in spreading our effectiveness
9 had we been able to reach an accommodation.
10 My sense of them -- that is where I wanted to
11 pick up on what Sir Louis Blom-Cooper was saying --
12 I never had any sense of them being pro-violent, but
13 I had a sense of them being ex-sectarian. Coming back
14 to the issue of concentration on rights exclusively for
15 Catholics and discrimination against Catholics and, as
16 I said earlier, I do not have a sectarian bone in my
17 body and I do not believe I ever encountered, outside
18 of NRC, any sectarianism within the Civil Rights
19 Association.
20 That was where the alienation or the
21 disaffiliation would have been at its most -- at its
22 sharpest.
23 Q. Would I be right in assuming that that
24 demonstrated that NICRA was constantly on the lookout
25 for any association with other organisations in the
1 field, in the general field of civil rights?
2 A. We were constantly on the lookout --
3 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure I understood the
4 question.
5 SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER: I will rephrase it:
6 that NICRA was always concerned that any association
7 with any other body outside its own organisation should
8 be in conformity with the precepts of the civil rights
9 movement?
10 A. Yes, NICRA was an umbrella body, rather loose
11 umbrella body, but it was an inclusive body that
12 embraced anyone who was prepared to sign up to a
13 culture of non-violence and a means of protesting,
14 vigorous protesting, I have to say, but so long as it
15 was non-violent.
16 Q. Would you turn to KL2.10, paragraph 27? You
17 will see there that you assumed that the NICRA
18 Executive would have formally told the police of the
19 arrangements for the march. Where did you get that
20 assumption from?
21 A. We would have done so for the Magilligan
22 one. I think the Chief Inspector in the area at that
23 time may have been a policeman called Irwin and we
24 would have given him notice that we were doing it, and
25 I think it was a matter of course that you told the
1 police that you were going to march, or that you were
2 applying to march. They clearly were not going to give
3 you permission, but -- it was a formal thing rather
4 than anything else of telling them.
5 For example as regards Magilligan, I do not
6 think we gave the exact route to them at any stage, but
7 we would have informed them that we were going to.
8 Q. We have heard that from time to time
9 Brigid Bond had certainly informal talks with
10 Chief Inspector Lagan; did you know about those?
11 A. No, but it would not surprise me.
12 Frank Lagan was an outstanding policeman, working in
13 very difficult circumstances, who kept his ear to the
14 ground and had good relations with a wide range of
15 people as a matter of knowing what was going on.
16 I came to respect him a great deal.
17 Q. Did you yourself know Chief Inspector Lagan?
18 A. Very well.
19 Q. Did you have discussions with him from time
20 to time on policing matters?
21 A. More particularly after I became elected, say
22 1973. At that stage he was more in the city and I was
23 in the county and -- but I would regularly have had
24 discussions with him.
25 Q. How did you regard him?
1 A. Very highly.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 Questioned by MR LAWSON
4 MR LAWSON: Mr Logue, my name is Lawson and
5 I represent some of the soldiers.
6 Can I ask about a couple of matters, please,
7 concerning your evidence in relation to Bloody Sunday
8 itself before asking for your help on some slightly
9 more general issues. If we have on the screen, so that
10 you can see where my question comes from, KL2.11,
11 paragraph 29?
12 You indicated in your statement, which
13 I assume you adopt, that there was no sense of
14 foreboding about the march and that, for your part at
15 least, you did not know that the Paratroop Regiment
16 would be in Derry?
17 A. That is right, yes.
18 Q. It had not been suggested to you, I take it
19 in terms that the paras were going to be there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I am not being pedantic, but you say "I did
22 not know they were going to be there"; it had not been,
23 so far as you were aware, rumoured that they were going
24 to be there?
25 A. I had not heard it.
1 Q. It is just the Tribunal has heard from some
2 others that there was talk of the paras being there.
3 That, if it happened, did not reach your ears at least?
4 A. I think what I say is, in the context of the
5 previous week at Magilligan, there was the Green
6 Jackets, I think they were called, and the paras, and
7 the paras were an entirely different, of an entirely
8 different nature to the Green Jackets on that day and
9 I think had I realised that the paras were coming from
10 Magilligan to Derry, I would have been much more
11 apprehensive.
12 Q. The only other matter I want to ask you
13 about, is this: in relation to what you saw and heard
14 of shooting on Bloody Sunday -- I will not go over all
15 the ground that has been covered already, or I hope any
16 of it in repetition -- you were aware of APCs, of
17 Armoured Personnel Carriers stopping somewhere near the
18 end of block 1 of the flats, let us not worry about
19 precisely where, and soldiers jumping out?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. At that stage there was no firing?
22 A. I had not heard any shooting at that point,
23 but it is a matter of instantaneous -- a matter of
24 instance, minute seconds until that first shot I hear
25 and, as I say, someone already had said there was
1 shooting, but I had not heard.
2 Q. But you were a matter of feet away, a few
3 feet away, from where the APCs pulled up?
4 A. Yards.
5 Q. All right, yards, but you were not far away?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you were certainly not aware of any
8 substantial immediate firing?
9 A. I was aware that the soldiers were
10 disembarking from the vehicle and they were
11 disembarking in a manner which permitted them to use
12 their guns very promptly.
13 Q. Yes. Is my question a very difficult one for
14 you?
15 A. Can you repeat it?
16 Q. You, being a matter of yards away, you were
17 not aware of any substantial immediate firing; that is
18 true, is it not?
19 A. By whom?
20 Q. By the soldiers?
21 A. By those soldiers?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. The soldiers that was disembarking from --
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. That is right.
2 MR TOOHEY: Mr Lawson, can you clarify one
3 matter: you put to Mr Logue a question in form that
4 suggested he had said that soldiers had disembarked
5 from the Saracens plural. I took his evidence to be
6 that they had disembarked, so far as he could see, from
7 one of the Saracens; could we clarify that.
8 MR LAWSON: Certainly, sir. Was it one
9 Saracen or more than one Saracen? It is right to say
10 in your statement to the Inquiry at the foot of page
11 KL2.12, you refer to soldiers jumping out of the
12 Saracen in the singular, but you also refer to more
13 than one Saracen stopping.
14 Can you help Mr Toohey in relation to that?
15 A. I think, again, it is the third Saracen
16 arriving in that I thought the soldiers were
17 disembarking from and the member of the Tribunal's
18 recollection, I think, is correct in this.
19 Q. It is one Saracen, as you recall?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That stopped very close to where you were,
22 looking through the slats?
23 A. Yes, there was three Saracens and it was the
24 third of them.
25 Q. As you have said in your statement, and
1 doubtless will confirm, the first shot of which you
2 were aware occurred after you had entered into the
3 flat, whether it be the first or second along the first
4 floor balcony?
5 A. Can I say that -- can I see what I said
6 because I thought I said the first shot on the
7 balcony?
8 LORD SAVILLE: Paragraph 37, the next
9 paragraph on the next page.
10 MR LAWSON: Top of page 13, if you want to
11 look at that:
12 "As I proceeded south along the balcony
13 [which you told the Chairman was the first
14 balcony] I tried to enter the first door. I opened it
15 and as I entered the flat I heard a single shot."
16 A. That single shot may well have been, as
17 I say, "as I entered the flat"; it may have been a
18 split second in advance of that.
19 Q. That is the first shot you were aware, at
20 least, whatever others may have been saying about other
21 shooting?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. That is right. Without trying to put a
24 precise time upon it, is it also right, then, that a
25 short time later there was further shooting that you
1 heard?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. Not many shots, as you recall?
4 A. If that is what I recall, sorry, where is
5 it?
6 Q. I am sorry?
7 A. I am looking for what I recall here.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Can we have the next paragraph
9 up, then?
10 MR LAWSON: You certainly can, paragraph 38,
11 where you say in the anti-penultimate line:
12 "It did not seem to be many"?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Is that your current recollection?
15 A. That is my recollection.
16 Q. It is. It was after those relatively few
17 shots, then, that you looked out of the window.
18 I want your assistance with this: you have
19 described seeing a soldier in a prone position with the
20 gun pointing upwards towards Free Derry Corner. You
21 have the hard copy of the statement in front of you,
22 I need not go to every passage, need I?
23 As I understood the evidence you have given
24 to the Tribunal this morning, you have no recollection
25 of seeing any other soldier when you looked out of the
1 window?
2 A. But you recall my correction as well, that
3 I would not have had a full view of all of
4 Rossville Street. I would have from my point only have
5 been able to see across on to that pavement.
6 Q. Into the road as well?
7 A. Well, not more than, um, one-third of one
8 side of the road.
9 Q. Were you aware, for example, of a soldier
10 walking or running down that road at about that point,
11 shooting his gun willy-nilly from the hip?
12 A. Well, you take it -- if you even look at this
13 desk now and I have a much higher view than I had of
14 the windowsill, I cannot see what is down in front of
15 me here. I can see across -- the trajectory of my
16 sight does not permit me to see what is on this side
17 (indicating) or contiguous to the building.
18 Q. The answer is no?
19 A. You asked me what I saw?
20 Q. I asked you if you saw or were aware of a
21 soldier walking or running down past where you were in
22 the flats shooting from the hip?
23 A. Which side of the road would that have been
24 on?
25 Q. On the side of the road that you were
1 overlooking?
2 A. On the side of the road --
3 Q. On Rossville Street itself. I cannot give
4 you a precise position, I want you to know, if you can
5 assist the Inquiry, whether you saw or whether you
6 heard what apparently was, more particularly whether
7 you saw a soldier walking or running down and about the
8 area you have indicated where the man was prone, and
9 shooting from the hip?
10 A. On that side I did not see -- I cannot say if
11 it was in the middle of the road, if someone was doing
12 it on the middle of the road or on the side of the
13 road, Rossville Street, contiguous to the
14 Rossville Flats, I would not have had a view of that,
15 so I cannot comment.
16 Q. Can I ask you, please, about a few other
17 matters arising from your earlier evidence? Could you
18 have on the screen KL2.2, please, paragraph 5, about
19 which you were asked some questions by Mr Clarke -- I
20 shall not repeat a single one of those.
21 Do you see four lines from the foot of the
22 passage that is on the screen is reference to, in your
23 words "the few mal contents" in the North Derry CRA who
24 belonged to the Official Republicans?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who were the few mal contents?
2 A. There I am referring to a small group who
3 were more concern -- they would probably have been more
4 of the Republican Clubs and they were more concerned
5 with petition signing, holding seminars or collective
6 ownership of wealth and such matters and -- whereas we
7 were, insofar as we held seminars, much more keen on
8 issues pertinent on identity where we sought to engage
9 the Protestant community and the community relations
10 commission on their sense of identity, whether they
11 were British, whether they were Irish, whether they
12 were Ulster, whether they were both. So that was the
13 kind of mal contents I was talking about.
14 Q. My question was: who were the few mal
15 contents?
16 A. This is in North Derry Civil Rights
17 Association?
18 Q. Yes?
19 A. Do you want names?
20 Q. Please.
21 A. I would need to, again, have some recall of
22 those names, and I think it would be unfair from this
23 authority to have the name "mal content" around anyone
24 30 years later when they are perfectly civilised
25 citizens and they were only expressing a different
1 point of view from the point of view that was at our
2 meetings. They had nothing whatever to do with any
3 attempt -- they had never any advocation of violence.
4 Indeed, sir, if I was to recall any one occasion on
5 North Derry's CRA where there was an occasion where
6 anyone proposed violence, it was the two, what we would
7 call "agents provocateurs" that the Security Forces had
8 within our organisation.
9 They brought, at one stage, to us a map of
10 the army barracks at Ballykelly, its water supply; they
11 had a ready supply, they said, of strychnine and they
12 would have made that available to us. We dismissed it
13 out of hand. We could see it a mile away; it was a
14 setup by the Security Forces to try to implicate the
15 North Derry CRA in a violent act and we would have no
16 part of it.
17 Q. Mass murder, putting strychnine in the water
18 supply?
19 A. That was what those who were in the
20 organisation at the behest of the Security Forces were
21 proposing to is. If you call that mass murder, I am
22 prepared to agree with you.
23 Q. That is what it sounds like, putting
24 strychnine in the water supply is what you are saying
25 they were procuring you to do. These are the people
1 you refer to in paragraph 14 of your statement, are
2 they, at KL2.5?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I do not want you to name them at the moment;
5 do you remember who they were?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. You say there "they were allowed to remain as
8 members of the association"?
9 A. They were, where do I say -- I would be of
10 the view that, long before John Major, that having them
11 in the tent rather than outside the tent was the best
12 way to deal with them.
13 Q. And they remained, what, through 1972, did
14 they, in the organisation?
15 A. I think so, yeah.
16 Q. Are you prepared privately to identify them
17 to the Inquiry?
18 A. One is now dead.
19 Q. And the other?
20 A. I have no idea where he is.
21 Q. Are you prepared to identify them privately
22 to the Inquiry? I presume you do not want publicly to
23 declare their identity and I do not ask that you do so;
24 will you give the Inquiry their names in private?
25 A. If the Inquiry can persuade me that it is
1 useful to the Inquiry, then I am ready to do that, yes.
2 Q. You seem fit, Mr Logue, have you not, to make
3 the allegation and now to allege that these people in
4 fact sought to incite, amongst other things, mass
5 murder. We have no way and the Inquiry has no way of
6 verifying that unless you are prepared to give the
7 names?
8 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Logue has said he
9 is prepared to give the Inquiry the names if the
10 Inquiry thinks it is worth pursuing this matter; did
11 I understand you correctly, Mr Logue.
12 MR LAWSON: Well, he said even if the Inquiry
13 persuades him to do so.
14 MR TOOHEY: I have to say, Mr Lawson, I think
15 Mr Logue was rather led into this by the line of
16 questioning. That is not to suggest the questioning
17 was any way unfair or improper, but I think it has
18 developed through the questioning.
19 MR LAWSON: Sir, you are absolutely right.
20 I was going to come to that passage of his statement in
21 due course, but Mr Logue mentioned these people in the
22 context of another topic I was exploring with him. Be
23 that as it may, I am sorry if I interrupted Mr Clarke
24 who, I think, was about to say something.
25 MR CLARKE: I was about to say it is slightly
1 academic. We do know who the names of these people are
2 as they were in what we know from Eversheds discussions
3 with this witness who they are.
4 MR LAWSON: You have already told the
5 Inquiry?
6 MR CLARKE: Yes.
7 MR LAWSON: Sorry, I would not have wasted
8 time had I known that.
9 Can I ask you this, sir, generally about
10 NICRA. It is right, is it, there was somewhat of a
11 lull in the activities of NICRA after 1969 and before
12 internment?
13 A. Well, I only joined NICRA in 1970 and I think
14 there was a lull prior to internment.
15 Q. Do you agree that the introduction of
16 internment gave what has been described as "a real shot
17 in the arm" to the civil rights movement, enabling it
18 to come back with a bang; you may not agree with the
19 precise words, but do you agree with that sentiment?
20 A. I believe that it was unthinkable for
21 something like internment to have been introduced and
22 for one not to confront it as NICRA did. There was a
23 real anger in the community and it was important that
24 that anger was channelled into non-violent means and
25 the complete withdrawal of consent by the citizens from
1 the institutions was assisted in a non-violent manner
2 and NICRA provided an useful means of doing that.
3 Q. I am seeking your comment on what someone
4 else has said, but I will move on. Let me ask you
5 about this: Magilligan, and the march at Magilligan.
6 Was that a NICRA or NICRA approved demonstration?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You indicated in your evidence today that
9 your, that is the North Derry CRA's assurances to NICRA
10 would have been fully accepted?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. So the march was approved by NICRA itself?
13 A. They were aware of it, and given endorsement
14 -- would have given an endorsement.
15 Q. So the march was held, was it, in accordance
16 with NICRA guidelines?
17 A. NICRA guidelines, in terms of the selection
18 of speakers, the stewarding, yes.
19 Q. Can you help as to this from your local
20 knowledge, the Andersonstown Civil Resistance Movement,
21 what was that?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. No idea?
24 A. In terms of local knowledge, Andersonstown is
25 70, 80 miles away. It is the west of Belfast; we are
1 in the north of Derry.
2 Q. They were invited to the march?
3 A. Were they?
4 Q. At Magilligan?
5 A. No-one was invited. There was ads placed in
6 the newspapers and everybody was encouraged to turn up.
7 Q. I just wonder as the Tribunal has a video
8 with a very, very large banner of that organisation;
9 you do not know who they are, though?
10 A. People were invited to bring their banners
11 and identify themselves and people regularly walked
12 behind their own banner.
13 Q. It was not just civil rights banners?
14 A. There were all banners, there were civil
15 rights banners. You said the Andersonstown Civil
16 Rights --
17 Q. Civil Resistance Movement; I just wondered if
18 you knew what it was?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. Two other matters, then, in relation to
21 Magilligan: you indicate in your statement, if we
22 highlight the bottom part of page 8 at KL2. I will not
23 ask you to go back to it, having earlier in the
24 statement perceived the imperative nature of having to
25 get to Magilligan soon after it opened you remember
1 telling the Tribunal about, you there say on the
2 penultimate paragraph on the screen:
3 "Our intention was to get as close to the
4 prison as possible"; do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. To do what?
7 A. To allow the internees to be aware of our
8 presence.
9 Q. What were you going to do when you got there?
10 A. We would probably have handed a letter of
11 protest and returned, like we did on our previous
12 occasions.
13 Q. That was all you wanted to do: turn up at the
14 prison, give them a letter of protest and go away
15 again?
16 A. Having demonstrated clearly public support
17 for -- public opposition to the introduction of
18 internment. I think you must understand, sir, at that
19 point Magilligan had to be confronted because not only
20 was it internment, but the setting up of Magilligan
21 indicated that for the Government it was their
22 intention to continue with internment; internment was
23 there to stay, it was not a short-term policy, so that
24 had to be confronted.
25 Q. Can I ask you about one further matter in
1 relation to Magilligan: It arises in this way: if you
2 remember my learned friend Mr Clarke, Counsel for the
3 Inquiry, asked you about -- for your comment on the
4 suggestion of people seeking to get around the barbed
5 wire fence or barricade by going into the sea; do you
6 remember?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Your reaction was to say, well, that might be
9 what the army say?
10 A. I think I gave your learned friend Mr Clarke
11 and comprehensive answer on that in terms of the wire
12 coming down to the water -- the high water mark and
13 people trying to turn around, get beyond that point,
14 indeed into the water to do so.
15 Q. Can I ask for your assistance and your
16 commentary upon some contemporaneous material; it is
17 the last thing I want to ask you about. Would you
18 look, please, on the screen with me at L9, which, as
19 you can see is an article entitled "The Brutal
20 Soldiery" written by somebody called Simon Hoggart.
21 I can tell you it comes from the Guardian newspaper of
22 25th January 1972.
23 The passage I draw your attention and which
24 I invite your comment, can we look at the first column
25 on the left and start from, I think it is the third
1 paragraph:
2 "The march at Magilligan ...".
3 By all means take your time to read it to
4 yourself. You will see the first two of the paragraphs
5 on the page refer to a suggestion that Colonel Welsh
6 offered tea and buns, rejected by Mr O'Kane, who led
7 the demonstrators along the muddy track three miles up
8 the beach.
9 Do you see that; does that ring a bell?
10 A. Yes, as does the massive foam generating
11 machine.
12 Q. Then, it continues:
13 "Here troops had unrolled a long roll of
14 barbed wire across the beach to stop the crowd getting
15 within view of the huts and watch towers"; is that
16 right?
17 A. That is right, as far as I recall.
18 Q. "Behind the wire were ranged a company of
19 Green Jackets, about 80 men of the First Battalion of
20 the Parachute Regiment, as well as about 80 police."
21 There were certainly Green Jackets, paras and
22 police there, were there not?
23 A. Yes, my recollection was that the
24 Green Jackets were in front and the paras were behind;
25 I cannot be sure.
1 Q. Then this in particular:
2 "Trouble started when a small portion of the
3 crowd took advantage of the low tide to try to sneak
4 round the seaward end of the barbed wire coils. As
5 they did so paratroopers opened fire with volley after
6 volley of rubber bullets, hitting several demonstrators
7 who buckled up into the seawater, causing the crowd to
8 charge over to their help ..."
9 Then there is reference to hand-to-hand
10 fighting and batons, rubber bullets, et cetera being
11 used.
12 That is how that particular reporter
13 described the trouble starting. You were there; do you
14 agree with that?
15 A. I agree with a great deal of what is there.
16 The rubber bullets -- what he has left unsaid is that
17 the volley of rubber bullets that were fired were fired
18 as the people who ran towards the sea began to run from
19 the march towards the sea. They had not got to the sea
20 and they had not got round the wire or anything else.
21 Your soldiers panicked and started firing right away,
22 so that those people would be prevented from ever
23 getting round that side.
24 Q. Sir, the violence, if you like, began, you
25 agree with this, when some of the demonstrators
1 indicated they were going to try to get round the
2 barrier?
3 A. They went into the sea to try to circumvent
4 the barbed wire.
5 Q. I think that is, yes, is it not?
6 Questioned by MR ELIAS
7 MR ELIAS: Mr Logue, would you accept that,
8 leaving aside the question of infiltration by the IRA
9 -- I do not suggest it in the sense of --
10 A. Can I ask who are you?
11 Q. My name is Elias and I act for a number of
12 former soldiers and military personnel. Leaving aside
13 the question of infiltration by IRA members of NICRA,
14 in the sense that they may have influenced the
15 organisation, either at Executive level or at any local
16 level, would you accept that within NICRA, either at
17 its Executive level or locally, there could have been
18 at the time we are discussing persons on committees and
19 active within NICRA who in fact were active IRA
20 members?
21 A. I really have to say to you, sir, that
22 I cannot believe that you say you leave aside
23 infiltration, I cannot believe that you are still
24 peddling this line, that there are IRA people or IRA
25 sympathisers on the Executive or holding any authority
1 within the civil rights movement.
2 As I recall, the Cameron Commission said, and
3 I have written it down because I have seen this so
4 often:
5 "There was no sign that they were dominant or
6 in a position to control or direct the policy of
7 NICRA. There were no signs that the IRA were members
8 of the association."
9 Q. I peddle no line, sir, at all, I ask you a
10 question: you were not aware, you have told the
11 Tribunal a little earlier, if it be the case, that
12 Liam McMillen was active and a senior man in the IRA;
13 that is correct, is it not?
14 A. I said -- you have again said "if it be the
15 case". No-one has yet proved to me that Liam McMillen
16 -- I said to you that he signed up to -- I took
17 everyone at face value, I was inclusive and that
18 Liam McMillen was a signed-up person of the Civil
19 Rights Executive, committed to non-violence.
20 If Liam McMillen had at any stage or at any
21 time either acted violently or proposed violence,
22 I would have confronted him, I can assure you of that.
23 Q. By what means, to take that example, did he
24 sign up to non-violence?
25 A. By being a member of the Northern Ireland
1 Civil Rights Executive, I assume, that he accepted the
2 constitution of that Executive.
3 Q. That assumption would have been made in any
4 case, would it, without further investigation of the
5 individual concerned or his or her background?
6 A. I think people's word was taken, yes.
7 Q. May I ask you about paragraph 48 of your
8 statement, quite a different matter, and about the shot
9 that you believe to have been, perhaps the duller sound
10 coming from the Free Derry Corner side. You were in
11 the ambulance at the time you hear that shot, were you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have any idea of where that shot came
14 from, apart from saying the Free Derry Corner side of
15 the Rossville Flats?
16 A. None.
17 Q. Did you have any idea of how far away from
18 you the shot appeared to have been fired?
19 A. None, other than that I assume the sharper
20 shot was probably closer. I mean, I have no knowledge
21 of arms at all, so I cannot say, no.
22 Q. Could the shot, for example, have been from,
23 talking of the lower, of the duller sound shot, could
24 it for example have been from the Rossville Flats
25 itself?
1 A. I think I made clear a number of times that
2 I do not believe for one second that there was anyone
3 firing from the Rossville Flats, otherwise the soldier
4 mentioned in my statement would have been a sitting
5 target, so I do not -- it never crossed my mind for a
6 second, I have never contemplated and I have never
7 accepted General Ford's and other agencies' suggestion
8 that there was anyone firing from Rossville Flats. It
9 would have been so easy to have shot the soldier that
10 I saw if that had been the case, so I do not think, in
11 relation to the ambulance, that it could have been
12 anywhere near there because the ambulance was right
13 beside Rossville Flats.
14 Q. So, apart from saying that it was south of
15 the ambulance, you cannot assist us further?
16 A. I said Free Derry Corner or beyond.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR CLARKE: Just two matters.
19 Could we have hotspot 11, please? This is a
20 picture taken recently of Glenfada Park North and you
21 can see that there is, on what is now the right-hand
22 side of the screen, a pram ramp. If I zoom slightly
23 you can see that in front of Glenfada Park itself there
24 is a low wall about five bricks high which runs
25 parallel to the block as it goes down towards Free
1 Derry Corner.
2 As I understand your evidence, the soldier
3 whom you saw was somewhere just at the north of this
4 block, and you mentioned something, which I am afraid
5 I did not quite pick up, about his position in relation
6 to what I think you may have been referring to as this
7 small wall we see here; have I understood that
8 correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He was lying on the ground; was he close to
11 the wall, was any part of him on the wall?
12 A. The wall was a backdrop to him. I would not
13 have thought that he was more than a metre from the
14 wall and he was lying on the ground. My impression,
15 Mr Clarke, is that he had his elbows on the ground.
16 His head would have been higher, if you know what
17 I mean.
18 Q. But the wall was, as you say, a backdrop to
19 where he was?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The last matter I wanted to ask you --
22 LORD SAVILLE: I am wondering, if we take the
23 artist's panorama of the virtual reality, -- this,
24 Mr Logue, is partly modern photographer, but also
25 superimposing on the other side of the street an
1 impression of the Rossville Street Flats. If we did a
2 complete 180 degrees swing round, you may or may not be
3 able to help us a little further on this question. It
4 was only an idea. There they are, they are the flats.
5 Swing on round. We can come back to the view that you
6 were shown. That is an impression of the barricade,
7 coming on round we come back to the picture Mr Clarke
8 showed you. I do not know whether that assists you in
9 any way to help us any more on the position of the
10 soldier who you say you saw?
11 A. Thank you, Chairman. What I think would be
12 of assistance would be to know, the diagonal across
13 from -- I think it is the second rather than the first,
14 the second flat on the first road where that came
15 across, was that the first or second balcony there,
16 that is what I really --
17 LORD SAVILLE: A photograph might possibly
18 show that. I was thinking of a general photograph
19 looking down on the Rossville Street Flats from which
20 one might be able to see across to the Glenfada side.
21 MR CLARKE: Yes, there is one somewhere.
22 There is a photograph taken from the flats, I cannot
23 for the moment remember where it is.
24 A. My recollection, Chairman, is that the flats
25 begin a little bit further down and are not directly
1 opposite.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Perhaps, while we are looking
3 for the photograph, if we look at KL2.38, we have the
4 map. We have the map up at the moment, Mr Clarke. You
5 see where you have put your "C" on the map?
6 A. Yes.
7 LORD SAVILLE: The low wall we have just seen
8 in the photograph starts more or less immediately
9 behind that letter "C" and runs southwards down to the
10 rubble barricade as marked?
11 A. May I -- if we begin with the letter "A",
12 the top of block A, and you come down, still staying
13 within that box and you go directly across, then
14 diagonally across, comme ca, yeah, I think we are a
15 little further north than that. We are clearly not
16 talking of the soldier being under the first parapet,
17 therefore, of Glenfada Park, we are talking of either
18 the second or the third.
19 MR CLARKE: Yes, I follow. The best I can do
20 --
21 LORD SAVILLE: By "parapet" you mean balcony?
22 A. Balcony.
23 MR CLARKE: The best I can do is EP35.18:
24 this is a photograph that has been taken from the
25 Rossville Flats itself, though I suspect from a little
1 further south to the position where you were, but it
2 does show the sort of view you get from a flat in --
3 A. But I think it is either the second or third
4 that we are looking at here, because first -- it is too
5 far north to be directly -- to be diagonally across
6 from Rossville.
7 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Hoyt has a couple
8 of suggestions for photographs.
9 MR HOYT: P204, P209.
10 LORD SAVILLE: P209 is possibly, looking at
11 the hard copy, a good one. That is the sort of
12 photograph I had in mind that may or may not help.
13 Does that help you at all, do you think?
14 A. Yes, well you take -- let us come down there
15 and come directly across, so I think we are looking
16 at -- yes, I would be looking more at the second.
17 LORD SAVILLE: That, I think, looking at the
18 second possibly, second balcony, that is to say. We
19 all appreciate you cannot necessarily be too exact, but
20 would the arrow you put on the screen here indicate as
21 best you can the position?
22 A. Where is Glenfada? This is Glenfada, or
23 this?. (Marked with a blue arrow).
24 LORD SAVILLE: The tip of your arrow is just
25 up against the eastern wall of Glenfada Park North?
1 A. The second, the second balcony.
2 LORD SAVILLE: It might be worth keeping that
3 one.
4 MR CLARKE: Can we save that, please, and
5 give it the number KL2.42?
6 The only last thing I wanted to ask you,
7 Mr Logue, is this: in relation to Civil Rights
8 Associations, we see in the papers sometimes a
9 reference to North Derry and sometimes a reference to
10 Derry county.
11 Are they the same in this context?
12 A. They should not be, but as it turned out,
13 North Derry was much more active than South Derry and
14 we worked together and we tended to be, as I say, more
15 responsive and prompt. South Derry, insofar as it
16 operated, was much more Maghera, Magherafelt,
17 Castledawson, that part --
18 Q. Was there a North Derry Civil Rights
19 Association and a South Derry Civil Rights Association?
20 A. There was.
21 Q. If we see in the papers Derry county in the
22 context of civil rights, which one would it mean, or
23 would it be ambiguous?
24 A. I am not sure obviously, I cannot.
25 Q. If you cannot be sure, we cannot be sure
1 either?
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, thank you very much
3 indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry. Thank
4 you very much. It is mid-day, Mr Clarke, I think we