1 Thursday, 14th June 2001
2 (9.55 am)
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, before we get on
4 with our next witness, so that people can make travel
5 and similar arrangements, I can say we have manage to
6 arrange the meeting to which I referred yesterday
7 afternoon to take place on Monday, so that the hearings
8 in the Guildhall here will resume, not on Monday, but
9 at Tuesday at 9.30.
10 MR HUGH LOGUE, sworn
11 Questioned by MR CLARKE
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, I say this to all
13 the witnesses: the questions will come from the
14 barristers who sit in front of me. All I would ask you
15 to do at this stage is to try and remember to keep your
16 face reasonably close to that microphone in front of
17 you so that everybody is able to hear what you have to
18 say.
19 MR CLARKE: Mr Logue, do you have with you
20 your statement to this Tribunal, signed by you on
21 11th December last year?
22 A. I have, yes.
23 Q. I believe there are two corrections you would
24 like to make. If we go to paragraph 12.1, KL2.4, you
25 there say:
1 "Insom(?) attached refers to the split
2 between the Provisional and the Official IRA. I would
3 say that this was an accurate description. At that
4 time the Provisionals ..."; I understand you would like
5 that to read "the Provisional Republican movement was
6 going a certain way and the Officials remained with
7 NICRA."
8 Then it says:
9 "The Provisionals were in the
10 ascendancy ..."; I think you would like that to
11 read "the Provisional Republican movement was in the
12 ascendancy and the Officials in decline"; is that
13 right?
14 A. Almost, but not quite. At the time the
15 Provisional Republican movement was going a certain way
16 and the Official Republican Movement remained with
17 NICRA. It is only in reference to the previous
18 sentence where it says "the Provisional and the
19 Official IRA", and I wanted to make it clear that this
20 is a further thought. At the time the Provisional
21 Republican movement was going a certain way and the
22 Official Republican movement remained with NICRA,
23 otherwise I am satisfied.
24 Q. The second qualification, if we go to
25 paragraph 18, which may be found at KL2.7, the last
1 sentence as written reads:
2 "The Simon Winchester article attached, dated
3 18th April 1972, after the AGM of NICRA is largely an
4 accurate portrayal of the situation."
5 I think you would like to add the words:
6 "But not the headline"?
7 A. "The Simon Winchester article but not the
8 headline", yes.
9 Q. Subject to those two qualifications, are the
10 contents of this statement true to the best of your
11 knowledge and belief?
12 A. By and large, yes, I think so. Yes.
13 Q. We have all had the opportunity of reading
14 it, so I am only going to ask you some supplementary
15 questions in relation to it. You describe in
16 paragraphs 3 and 4 how you became involved with the
17 civil rights movement you were at Queens and were
18 yourself injured in the burn toll lit incident. That
19 was at the end of a march from Belfast to Derry; is
20 that right?
21 A. That is right, yes.
22 Q. You describe how you joined the North Derry
23 Civil Rights Association and, together with Finbar
24 O'Kane, and in 1970 he was the Chairman and you were
25 the Vice Chairman of that association and in 1971 you
1 were both elected to the Executive Committee of NICRA;
2 is that right?
3 A. That is right, yes.
4 Q. Did you remain Chairman and Vice Chairman of
5 the North Derry Civil Rights Association in 1971?
6 A. '71 and '72.
7 One other thing there, if I may, in terms of
8 paragraph 3: I only joined the march at Claudy. I had
9 not been in it from Belfast.
10 Q. You describe, in paragraph 5 in relation to
11 the North Derry Civil Rights Association, how neither
12 you nor Finbar O'Kane had any political alignment,
13 although you became a member of the SDLP.
14 You say that:
15 "Our populist inclusive leadership, prevented
16 members of the Official Republicans from gaining
17 authority"; that is in the North Derry Civil Rights
18 Association, is that right?
19 I want to ask you about the position in
20 relation to the national organisation, NICRA. If we
21 come to paragraph 9 at KL2.3, you describe in that
22 paragraph how there was no representation within NICRA
23 of Official party positions, but there were members
24 sympathetic to Official republicanism, communism and
25 non-alliance centre group, which included you,
1 Professor Kevin Boyle as he now is and Finbar O'Kane
2 and a small number sympathetic towards the Northern
3 Resistance Movement.
4 You describe how, by the end of 1971 the
5 Official Republican/Communist alliance within NICRA had
6 a small majority, but those of you who were in the
7 centre stayed on because you believe you could resist
8 any takeover and maintain the broadest possible
9 grouping in NICRA; is that right?
10 A. That is what I have said there.
11 Q. I assume it is correct?
12 A. Well, I think I should say that NICRA was an
13 umbrella body.
14 Q. Yes. Could we have on the screen GEN5.23?
15 I wonder if I could very quickly go through with you an
16 exercise that I have performed in relation to another
17 witness to identify the political alignment so far as
18 known of the Executive Committee. This is a NICRA
19 document. It is headed "State of the Executive
20 Committee". Its exact date is unknown, but it is
21 plainly post-internment because it refers to two people
22 as being interned and three people as being not
23 available. We understand that was because they were
24 trying to avoid being interned. It gives the list of
25 the elected representatives, the regional
1 representatives and a number of co-options. I am sure
2 there are a lot of names there are familiar to you.
3 If we go through them: Ivan Barr, am I right
4 in thinking that he was in the Official Republican
5 Movement?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. Frank Gogarty?
8 A. Was not, from what I recall.
9 Q. Was he any party alignment?
10 A. I do not think so.
11 Q. Edwina Stewart, we know was communist.
12 Ann Hope?
13 A. Ann Hope did not have alliances, but she
14 tended to vote similar to Edwina.
15 Q. Kevin Boyle, non-aligned.
16 Rebecca McGlade?
17 A. Had Republican, from what I recall.
18 Q. Andrew Boyd?
19 A. Was Northern Ireland Labour Party, I think.
20 Q. We know George Huxley was a professor at
21 Queens, but I think no particular political alignment?
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. Aidan Corrigan?
24 A. Would have been sympathetic, I think, to the
25 Northern -- what were they called, Northern Resistance
1 Movement.
2 Q. Yes. Des O'Hagan?
3 A. Republican Clubs.
4 Q. Malachy McGurran, Republican Clubs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Liam McMillen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The same, in other words?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Sam Dowling, the same?
11 A. I am not sure.
12 Q. Finbar O'Kane?
13 A. Non-aligned.
14 Q. Hugh Logue is you.
15 Rory McShane?
16 A. Non-aligned.
17 Q. John McClelland?
18 A. Non-aligned.
19 Q. Brigid Bond?
20 A. Would have voted by and large with the
21 Republican Clubs when it came to a vote, which there
22 were not all that many of.
23 Q. Jimmy Doris?
24 A. Non-aligned.
25 Q. Madge Davidson, we know was communist.
1 Dalton Kelly?
2 A. I always regarded as being sympathetic to the
3 Republican.
4 Q. Joe Deighan?
5 A. I thought he had sympathies with, along with
6 the Edwina -- the Communist Party line, I could not be
7 sure.
8 Q. That is what Edwina Stewart told us.
9 Miriam Daly?
10 A. I first met her in SDLP circles as far as
11 I recall and would, I think, eventually went much more
12 -- at that stage would have been non-aligned, but was
13 moving towards sympathy for Provisionals, I think.
14 Q. Bried Ruddy?
15 A. Again, non-aligned, but would have taken the
16 whip, shall I say, from the Republican side of things.
17 Q. Go back to paragraphs 6 and 7 of your
18 statement at KL2.2. You describe there on the
19 introduction of internment the North Derry Civil Rights
20 Association organised a series of demonstrations in
21 a number of villages in the North Derry area and two
22 demonstrations to the Magilligan camp which was being
23 prepared.
24 You describe how, on 16th August, you
25 participated with John Hume and Ivan Cooper in
1 a demonstration in Laburnam Terrace designed to prevent
2 army tanks rolling into the Bogside.
3 You do mean "tanks", do you, as opposed to
4 some other form of army vehicle?
5 A. These military vehicles were the size of
6 houses, so, tanks, I think they were, they were very
7 large -- they were not personnel carriers, the normal
8 kind of personnel carriers, they were tanks, yes.
9 LORD SAVILLE: We have pictures of what we
10 have been calling Pigs, which are pretty formidable
11 looking vehicles.
12 MR CLARKE: You describe how soldiers under
13 the command of Paddy Ashdown, who did well thereafter,
14 used water cannon and fired rubber bullets to disperse
15 the protest. This was the occasion which gave rise to
16 the celebrated Londonderry Justice's case, which you
17 describe in paragraph 8?
18 A. Yes, I mean Paddy Ashdown later acknowledged
19 that our sit down action was the most responsible
20 action that could have been taken on the day.
21 Q. Could we come, please, to paragraph 11 at
22 KL2.4?
23 A. May I, before we move on, going back to
24 paragraph 6 because I think there should be some
25 counterbalancing emphasis. The introduction of
1 internment, there was an immense anger and outrage in
2 the community and we had to confront it; there was no
3 way that it -- one could be rolled over by it, all the
4 more so in Magilligan where right -- the camps were
5 being set up in our very midst. So the challenge to us
6 was to see that the injustice that we regarded
7 internment as had to be confronted and we were clearly
8 determined, in a non-violent manner, to organise the
9 withdrawal of consent to be governed at that time.
10 So I think we have to see the context of it:
11 there was an immense sense of outrage at the time and
12 that should be borne in mind. Thank you.
13 Q. Could we then, please, come to paragraph 11
14 at KL2.4: you recite there how you have been asked
15 about the influence of the Official Republicans in
16 Derry and you say that, in the North Derry Civil Rights
17 Association they carried no authority and your
18 experience was that they carried no real clout in Derry
19 and that it was the Citizens Action Committee,
20 John Hume, Paddy "Bogside" Doherty, and Gary Cooper who
21 carried the real influence in the local community; is
22 that right?
23 A. That is right, yes.
24 Q. We know from the evidence that has
25 accumulated in this case that by the beginning of 1972
1 there had been quite a lot of violence in this city
2 from week to week.
3 Were you aware, in general terms, of the
4 extent of the paramilitary organisations in Derry in
5 late 1971/early 1972, simply the size?
6 A. I do not think I was aware of the size.
7 There was clearly activity and there was -- violent
8 incidents were occurring, but I had no idea of the
9 scale of it.
10 Q. We know in relation to the Provisionals that
11 Martin McGuinness was their adjutant.
12 Did you know who the leaders of the
13 Provisionals were in Derry, apart from him?
14 A. Apart from him, you say, the word was that
15 Martin McGuinness was in charge, or running the show.
16 Q. We have heard that too.
17 A. (Laughing) At the time.
18 Q. Did you know whether -- did you know any --
19 I do not mean know personally -- but did you know who
20 else was in the Provos leadership in late 1971/early
21 1972?
22 A. Not at all. One might have been aware that
23 families were sympathetic to them, but that would have
24 been as far as it would have gone.
25 Q. What about the Officials; did you know who
1 their leaders were in late 1971/1972?
2 A. No.
3 Q. In paragraph 12 you refer to a set of
4 intelligence summaries which you have been shown and
5 which we have obtained. In paragraph 12.2 you refer to
6 a paragraph in one of those intelligence summaries,
7 number 99, which comments that Kevin Agnew was actively
8 recruiting for the Provos and surmises that Kevin
9 Agnew's involvement in NICRA could mean that NICRA was
10 supporting the Provisionals and that such an
11 interpretation is absolutely incorrect; is that right?
12 A. That is what I have said there.
13 Q. That is right, is it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you know, if it was ever the case, that
16 Kevin Agnew was actively recruiting for the Provisional
17 IRA?
18 A. Can I say that I was astonished, generally,
19 at reading the military -- the summaries, intelligence
20 summaries, how hostile they were, how out of touch they
21 were, how even newspapers like the Irish News are
22 dismissed as Republican press, how people like
23 John Hume and Ivan Cooper are treated as if they are
24 fellow travellers and sympathisers with the Republican
25 movement.
1 As regards Trevor Agnew, Agnew participated
2 in platforms; he was on the street each day; he was
3 around. We had the -- you had the power of internment,
4 or the Government had the power of internment at that
5 time. If these Military Intelligence -- if they
6 believed their own Military Intelligence, they had the
7 opportunity to pick him up at any stage to interrogate
8 him. I do not think that ever happened.
9 So I have no faith in it whatsoever. He
10 could be a rather flamboyant speaker and cause perhaps
11 some embarrassment to NICRA and therefore you will find
12 that he was seldom on the North Derry platforms, but
13 there was no reason to believe -- and I still do not
14 believe -- that he was recruiting for the Provisionals
15 and if the army believed for one moment that he was,
16 they had the opportunity to take action on it; he was
17 not hidden or on the run.
18 Q. I think Kevin Agnew had been on the Executive
19 at the beginning of the 1971/72 year, but I think he
20 resigned and his place was taken by Finbar O'Kane, is
21 that right?
22 A. It was prior to my coming on the Executive.
23 Q. If we go to paragraph 12.4, at KL2.5, you say
24 that in general you found the comments contained in the
25 intelligence summaries to be wide of the mark since
1 they were attempting to illustrate a link between the
2 civil rights movement and the IRA; no such link, formal
3 or informal, existed.
4 Did you know that Liam McMillen, a member of
5 the NICRA Executive, was a prominent member of the
6 Belfast Official IRA?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Can I tell you why I am asking you that:
9 could we have on the screen LTL12? This is a passage
10 from the well-known book "Lost Lives" detailing the
11 deaths of everybody, civilian or Security Forces who
12 lost their lives in the troubles. This is the entry
13 that deals with the death of Billy McMillan on 28th
14 April 1975, and in the last two paragraphs in this
15 column it describes him as having held a key position
16 in Belfast republicanism and having been:
17 "One of the most respected IRA members in
18 west Belfast throughout the 1950s and 1960s as having
19 taken part in the IRA campaign of the 1950s and
20 interned for four years, standing in 1964 as the
21 Sinn Fein candidate for west Belfast."
22 If we could highlight the next column,
23 please: it describes how, during the period of
24 internment, he was described as one of the most wanted
25 men in Northern Ireland. In the next paragraph, it
1 describes how, over the period from 1971 to 1975 there
2 were at least three attempts on his life.
3 Did you know any of that, apart from the
4 obvious fact of him standing in the Sinn Fein interest
5 in the elections?
6 A. When you say -- I know it now that you have
7 told it to me, that he was one of the most wanted men.
8 There were quite a number of people who would have been
9 sought after by -- post-internment.
10 Q. May I take you back to the previous stage in
11 terms of -- this is the first time I have seen this,
12 but I note that in the paragraph above you say, it said
13 that McMillan was trying to -- where was it, "negotiate
14 a cease-fire". Can we have the top?
15 A. "His death came as he was apparently
16 attempting to negotiate a cease-fire in a Republican
17 feud."
18 I did not know him very well. At meetings he
19 did not say a lot, but so long as people were signed up
20 to non-violence I was ready to welcome them and,
21 therefore, I would have assumed he was signed up to
22 non-violence when he was on our Executive.
23 Q. You were not aware that attempts had been
24 made on his life in 1971, or at some time after 1971?
25 A. Well, if I was, I have forgotten.
1 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 13 and 14
2 on KL2.5: you describe in paragraph 13 how one of the
3 groups involved in NICRA was the Northern Resistance
4 Movement whose objective appeared to be to make the
5 aims of NICRA more Catholic orientated and wished to
6 focus on Catholic rights, thereby adopting a sectarian
7 approach to civil rights with which the North Derry
8 Civil Rights Association did not agree."
9 What are Catholic rights?
10 A. They were wanting to concentrate on
11 discrimination against Catholics and that appeared to
12 me, as I say there, to adopt a sectarian approach,
13 whereas on all my time on the NICRA Executive I do not
14 recall anyone advocating a sectarian approach, a
15 sectarian sentiment; there was not a sectarian fibre in
16 the body of NICRA.
17 Might I also say that I never recall anyone
18 proposing any proposal to act violently or anyone
19 supporting violence with references to Mr McMillan or
20 any of the rest of them. I never remember that around
21 the table at NICRA.
22 Q. May we come to KL2.6, paragraph 15: in this
23 paragraph you refer to the use of stewards and NICRA's
24 involvement with stewards. You make the qualification
25 that that was not something that you were ever directly
1 involved in organising, but you say that your
2 perception is that:
3 "The NICRA Executive appointed a Chief
4 Steward for the march, plus several assistants, and
5 that it was then the responsibility of the Chief
6 Steward and his helpers to multiply their numbers."
7 How strong is that perception; was that
8 always so? The reason I am asking is we have the
9 impression, at any rate in relation to the Derry march,
10 that the stewarding was dealt with at local level and
11 we have not heard, I think, before of a NICRA Executive
12 appointed chief steward for the march?
13 A. I think that may not be -- that is in danger
14 of misleading you when I say "the NICRA Executive
15 appointed a Chief Steward for the march". They would
16 have sought to ensure a chief steward was appointed.
17 For example in the North Derry march to Magilligan we
18 had appointed Vincent McMahon as our chief steward for
19 the march, together with some of the other stewards
20 I have mentioned there, and they would then have
21 secured other people. That is the basis, Mr Clarke,
22 that I am responding from -- okay.
23 Q. They would have seen to it that there was one
24 without necessarily appointing one themselves?
25 A. They would have satisfied themselves that one
1 was there and that they had confidence in him.
2 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 17 at
3 KL2.6? This is in the portion of your statement
4 dealing with the civil rights marches and the
5 possibility of IRA involvement. You describe in
6 paragraph 17, in the second sentence, how, if it was
7 the case that NICRA sought any assurances from the
8 Provisional IRA prior to the Derry march, you were not
9 informed of this nor aware of it at the time.
10 Does the same hold good for the Official IRA?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Were you aware of the Derry Civil Rights
13 Association seeking some sort of assurance or
14 indication from either paramilitary wing?
15 A. Only long after the event.
16 Q. You were not aware at the time.
17 May we then come, please, to paragraph 19 on
18 KL2.7 which deals with the Magilligan march which, as
19 you say, was organised by the North Derry Civil Rights
20 Association, though, as I understand it, under the
21 auspices, as it were, of NICRA; is that right?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. You were obviously there. We have heard
24 quite a lot of evidence about it and I do not want to
25 go into that in any detail, but could I come to KL2.9?
1 You describe at the top of that page, KL2.9,
2 how, as the march approached the barbed wire, hastily
3 erected by the army banning your way along the beach,
4 the soldiers opened up with rubber bullets and came
5 towards you wielding batons.
6 Was that because some of the protesters had
7 tried to get into the fenced-off area by going round
8 the fence where it gave out at the high water mark?
9 A. That might be what the army would say. What
10 happened, I think, was that the wire was hastily placed
11 across the beach down, as you say, to the high water
12 mark, indeed into the water, and some people would have
13 ran towards the sea to get around that point before the
14 barricade prevented them.
15 Q. Were they laying the barbed wire as the march
16 approached?
17 A. They were extending it.
18 Q. Extending it?
19 A. Extending it.
20 Q. May we come, then, to the Derry march itself
21 and may we look, please, at KL2.10?
22 You describe in paragraph 26 how you were not
23 asked to take part in the organisation of the march,
24 save to ask John Hume to participate. I assume you did
25 ask him to do so; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was the upshot?
3 A. Well, you have asked me there a number of
4 questions. I had not participated in the organisation
5 because, on 7th January where it was decided to hold
6 the meeting, I was not at that meeting, in fact I was
7 on my honeymoon, and at the meeting on 14th I was
8 asked. It was probable that I indicated that John Hume
9 might not participate, and I notice from the minutes of
10 the NICRA meeting that a fallback of Ivan Cooper,
11 I think that would have come from me, suggesting that
12 if Hume was not available -- because as far as I can
13 recall from the NICRA minutes there is nowhere else is
14 there a fallback speaker suggested.
15 What was the upshot of asking John Hume?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I think it was probable I would have asked
18 Hume about Magilligan and Derry at the same time. He
19 would have agreed to Magilligan because he had a great
20 deal of confidence, or he had a considerable amount of
21 confidence, in the North Derry Civil Rights
22 Association, a confidence that did not fully extend to
23 the Derry Civil Rights Association. He agreed to
24 Magilligan.
25 I recall us debating would we set out on the
1 road or on the beach. He was very keen to take the
2 paths that would take us off the road and down to the
3 beach because that would be a legal march, and I think
4 at that point I came away with the view that I would
5 bag the Magilligan attendance and wait to see if he
6 would attend later the Derry one, but I already had
7 doubts that he would do Derry.
8 Q. We know that in the event he did not. Do you
9 know why he did not; did he tell you why he was not
10 going to?
11 A. I should say that John Hume was a person for
12 whom I have the highest respect; he is a man of immense
13 moral, physical and political courage; I have not met
14 his like. When he indicated that he had doubts, his
15 primary doubts, I think at that time were about the
16 organisers, not so much, I think, their competence in
17 terms of stewarding or anything like that because there
18 had been a number of marches in Derry which he had
19 participated, some of which had been banned over the
20 time and all had been very well stewarded by the
21 Catholic ex-servicemen, by a range of groupings within
22 the city and I think his doubts rested really with the
23 Civil Rights Association in this city, from which he
24 was alienated.
25 Q. We had a witness yesterday, Mr Havord, who
1 was the Press Officer of the Association who told the
2 Tribunal that John Hume had said to him, Mr Havord,
3 that he regarded the Derry CRA as politically
4 dangerous?
5 A. I saw that view -- what was said yesterday
6 and if John Hume said that, John Hume said that.
7 I think that the further interpretation that John Hume
8 was not in any way politically nervous of them in terms
9 of opposition is without foundation. As far as
10 I recall, many of that group that were then
11 pro-Republican Clubs in the city ran in the next
12 election after Bloody Sunday. I would doubt if they
13 saved their deposit. Mr Hume, Mr Canavan and myself
14 were elected.
15 Q. We can tell from your previous answers fairly
16 recently the minutes that have survived of the NICRA
17 Executive on 7th January and 14th January 1972. We
18 have had some evidence that there was a meeting of the
19 NICRA Executive on 28th January, which was the Friday
20 which would be its normal time to meet.
21 Do you remember whether you were present at a
22 meeting, the Friday immediately before the march?
23 A. I should say I have only seen the minutes in
24 recent times, very recent times, when the statements of
25 other participants have, or other witnesses have been
1 given to me and I did not have them at the time I was
2 making my own statement or any corrections to my
3 statement.
4 My recollection is that I was there.
5 I cannot be certain that I was there, but I notice that
6 George Huxley says that he chaired a meeting and
7 I recall a meeting that George Huxley chaired. I think
8 I would have been there as well on the basis of giving
9 information about the participants and -- but I do not
10 recall a great deal about the meeting.
11 Q. We know that in the event the march did not
12 attempt to go through the barricades at the east end of
13 William Street, but the lorry turned off, taking a
14 right-hand turn, going down Rossville Street to Free
15 Derry Corner.
16 Do you remember when that was mooted? It may
17 not matter much precisely when it was; do you happen to
18 remember?
19 A. I cannot be sure.
20 Q. We know also that on 14th January meeting
21 there was a delegation from Derry who were reporting
22 back about the march, four or five members of the
23 Executive having been sent to Derry, as it were,
24 following the meeting of 7th January.
25 Do you have any recollection of the delegates
1 and the subcommittee, as it were, reporting of the
2 state of the organisation of the march on Derry?
3 A. Can I say a couple of points, if I may
4 there: I noticed in, I think it was Professor Boyle's,
5 that I was a member of that; I was not, and Kevin now
6 accepts that I was not a member of that. I can plead
7 honeymoon again there at that meeting, so I was not a
8 member of that grouping. I do not remember much of the
9 detail in terms of the group that gave -- that attended
10 the 14th January meeting. I suspect that they were
11 brought along and it was often in the nature that they
12 would have come and been pleased to be there but would
13 not have said very much at the meeting, they would have
14 left it to whoever was coming.
15 I do recall now on the 28th meeting, and
16 I think I made reference to it in my statement
17 somewhere, that I would have been advising that the
18 potential threat of the counter demonstration was
19 nothing to take serious and that it was unlikely, and
20 I think there would have been still a degree of
21 resolution in nearly everyone, and certainly in myself
22 and a number of others, that we should go to the
23 Guildhall because the Guildhall would have been out of
24 the ghetto and the Guildhall, as far as I recall, we
25 had had a demonstration directly post-internment, a
1 very ad hoc, very quick demonstration, about 14th, 15th
2 August of that year in which Finbar O'Kane participated
3 as well, and it was important to claim the Guildhall
4 for subliminal reasons in terms of the Commission
5 coming into this city and what this building
6 represented.
7 Q. Did you say it was important to claim the
8 Guildhall?
9 A. Claim the Guildhall Square in sofar as it
10 should not be -- I do not mean in any sense of victory
11 or I do not mean exclusively, but I think we should not
12 be denied is what I am saying, the Guildhall.
13 Q. Were you proposing to come into the
14 Guildhall?
15 A. No, sorry, I am using shorthand for the
16 Guildhall Square.
17 Q. I wanted to make clear what you said.
18 May we come to the day itself and could I ask
19 you to look at paragraph 32, which is at KL2.11? You
20 describe the march proceeding down William Street,
21 seeing barbed wire and barricades, thinking that all
22 the surrounding streets were barricaded so there was
23 only one way forward and having the impression that
24 most people would have known to turn right no
25 Rossville Street.
1 May I ask you this: when you started on the
2 march, where did you think the march was going to end
3 up?
4 A. It is a good question. (Pause) I suppose
5 there still was the hope that it would get to the
6 Guildhall.
7 Q. But you saw, presumably, the -- by the time
8 you had got to the junction the lorry and the march had
9 already turned down, had they?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. When you say, therefore, that you had the
12 impression that most people would have known to turn
13 right into Rossville Street, do you mean by that that
14 you reckoned that when the lorry turned, as in the
15 event it did, most people would go with it?
16 A. I mean, reflecting on your previous question:
17 I had no great sense of disappointment or frustration
18 that our way was blocked. Clearly, I would have
19 preferred the Guildhall, and I think we fully expected
20 people to follow the lorry.
21 There was, from what I remember, a row of
22 stewards across the, at William Street, particularly
23 covering the pavements. There was also a barricade,
24 was there not, of some sort?
25 Q. It depends where you mean by
1 "William Street"; there was an army barricade at the
2 end of William Street as it turns to go towards the
3 Guildhall Square.
4 A. At the junction of William Street stewards
5 were encouraging people to go down.
6 Q. At the junction of William Street and where?
7 A. Rossville Street.
8 Q. There was not a barricade there?
9 A. No, but there was a group of stewards there.
10 Across and behind them there would have been -- further
11 back down William Street there was a barricade.
12 Q. At the time you got there, you saw stewards
13 at the junction, but behind them, as I understand it,
14 and further east down William Street, rioting was
15 already going on at the army barricade?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Had the NICRA Executive considered the
18 possibility or likelihood of there being rioting at a
19 barricade if it was placed at the end of
20 William Street?
21 A. They never for one moment contemplated that
22 there would be gunfire, it would have been crazy and it
23 never crossed their mind, despite Magilligan, that
24 gunfire would open, otherwise people would not have
25 been brought onto the streets.
1 As for rioting, I do not think they
2 contemplated that either. There had been, on the other
3 hand, at previous demonstrations what the army referred
4 to as "aggro" after marches, at the fringes of it and,
5 I suppose, to use an army phrase "there was an
6 acceptable level of aggro" basically that might have
7 been tolerated, but it was not encouraged, in fact it
8 had been wholly deplored by the Civil Rights
9 Association.
10 Q. Did the Civil Rights Association consider any
11 ways or means by which aggravation, "aggro", could be
12 avoided?
13 A. Other than trying to prevent it through
14 stewards, no.
15 Q. Did it have any plan as to how exactly it
16 would prevent it through stewards?
17 A. I think you encouraged the young people to
18 move in the direction of the march and to stay with the
19 march and to desist from taking on the soldiers, that
20 it was counterproductive and that was the only means we
21 had; we only had non-violent means.
22 Q. Some of the witnesses who have given evidence
23 from the NICRA Executive have suggested that the plan
24 was that the lorry would turn right down
25 Rossville Street -- this is if there was a barricade in
1 William Street, as in the event there was -- the plan
2 was that the lorry would turn right down William Street
3 and access to the east end of William Street would be
4 prevented by a row of stewards and two people from
5 NICRA would go to the end of William Street, and them
6 alone, to make a protest at the barricade.
7 Do you remember any discussion of some such
8 plan?
9 A. I do not recall the detail -- sorry, I do not
10 recall the detail of it, but it would have had a
11 precedent in terms of earlier marches which John Hume
12 had led in Derry on the bridge, where a token breach of
13 the barricade took place where two people would walk
14 forward and climb across the barrier and make their
15 protest and that satisfied everyone; that had been
16 negotiated in the past.
17 So it does not surprise me that that was, but
18 I do not recall it.
19 Q. You do not recall it. Your answer may be the
20 same to this question in the light of what you have
21 said, but do you recall anybody in the NICRA Executive
22 giving any consideration to the number of stewards that
23 might be needed at what could be a critical point,
24 namely the junction between Rossville Street and
25 William Street if people were to be prevented from
1 going down to the east end of William Street and
2 reaching the barricade?
3 A. I think you are assuming a level of
4 discussion at the NICRA Executive about the innards of
5 a march which never really took place, it would have
6 been done at the local organisation level and that
7 would have been between the organiser and the Derry
8 CRA, and certainly in our experience in relation to
9 Magilligan our assurances would have been fully
10 accepted and there would have been no particular
11 investigation into how or why.
12 Q. Do I express it fairly by saying it this way:
13 NICRA regarded that sort of matter as the
14 responsibility of the local Civil Rights Association?
15 A. In conjunction with their chief organiser,
16 McCorry, I would have thought. His word would have
17 carried the day.
18 Q. You describe in paragraph 33 stopping at the
19 junction of William Street and Rossville Street.
20 Could we go down to paragraph 35 on the next
21 page: looking around for Finbar O'Kane, hearing rioting
22 and tear gas being fired at the east end of
23 William Street and being approached by three man and a
24 woman to ask if you could help somebody who had been
25 hit in the face by a gas cannister and then helping him
1 down to the flats, or they helped him down to the flats
2 at your suggestion, and you walked in front of the
3 group that was holding him; is that right?
4 A. That is right, yes.
5 Q. I wonder if I could show you a photograph;
6 could we have on the screen P783? Did you cover the
7 name of the injured man, no?
8 A. No, I still do not know his name.
9 Q. Does that photograph bring back any memories?
10 A. I cannot be sure, the hair is accurate.
11 I thought there was -- did I say two men and a woman or
12 a woman and a man.
13 Q. You said three men and a woman. You said you
14 were approached by three men and a woman; your
15 statement does not specifically say how many took him
16 down?
17 A. In that photograph I cannot see his face, can
18 you?
19 Q. No, his face is, I am afraid, hidden by his
20 hair. There is another one, P784; I do not know
21 whether that is any better. No, that is worse. You
22 cannot positively identify?
23 A. No.
24 Q. May we come to paragraphs 35 and 36, KL2.12.
25 You describe -- it is the very end of paragraph 34, we
1 need not turn it up -- how, as you got to block 1 of
2 the flats, the group who were with the injured man
3 began to run and overtook you, having seen what was
4 coming behind them and you all ran to the stairwell and
5 as you reached the bottom of the stairwell at the north
6 of block 1, about three APCs drove at speed into the
7 car park and people started to shout and scream.
8 Before then had you been conscious that the
9 army were coming into the Bogside?
10 A. No, before then my only awareness of the army
11 was the army on -- the aggro that was going on on
12 William Street, the gas and that, but I was not aware,
13 no.
14 Q. You describe going up the steps, somebody
15 shouting that "they are shooting" and when you got two
16 or three steps further, turning round and looking
17 through the slats in the stairwell and seeing the three
18 APCs in the car park, the third of which came to a halt
19 at about the point you have marked "B" on your map
20 attached to your statement which is at the mouth of the
21 car park. We can see it there.
22 I would like to show you a photograph, P188,
23 please: this is a photograph taken on the day a bit
24 later in time than the events that you are immediately
25 describing. Is that the sort of view that you saw from
1 the slats of the --
2 A. Where am I? That is the stairwell, is it?
3 Q. The stairwell of the flats is there, you can
4 see the slats. There looks to be an armoured personnel
5 carrier in almost exactly the position that you are
6 talking about?
7 A. Well, there were three of them.
8 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you about
9 because we know, from this photograph and others, that
10 the initial location of the army vehicles when they
11 came into the Bogside was that one of them came here,
12 that is to say to the mouth of the car park; one of
13 them went up over on the right-hand side, it is not in
14 the photograph, but went up to have its front facing
15 the back of one of the Chamberlain Street houses; but
16 the rest of them, at an early stage -- and it looks as
17 if we are talking about an early stage -- were in line,
18 almost in line abreast along Rossville Street. There
19 is a soft-skinned lorry there.
20 You have a recollection of seeing three at
21 the mouth of the car park, do you?
22 A. The three I saw, they swept in and you see
23 where you have the two red arrows, they were there,
24 sweeping in there. One of them may have come round
25 there, I think, and two -- but the three were sweeping
1 in, initially, in that form and soldiers were
2 disembarking from them before the vehicles became
3 stationary.
4 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, could I ask a
5 question, please? Mr Logue, to your right: when you
6 say "swept in", did any of the three Saracens actually
7 enter that car park area that you can see on the
8 photograph as opposed to being at the mouth of the
9 entrance?
10 A. What I saw, sir, was -- I did not see any
11 coming into that car park, other than where that one
12 there would be. They would have stopped and the other
13 two, I think, would have been behind that.
14 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, are you going to show
15 Mr Logue that photograph with the Saracen at the back
16 of Chamberlain Street?
17 MR CLARKE: I will, I am going to show him
18 another one initially.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, I wanted to ask
20 a similar question because your written statement says
21 "I saw the three aforementioned APCs stopping in the
22 car park", and I was wondering whether you used the
23 expression "car park" to include this marked-out area
24 we see in this photograph and also at least some of the
25 wasteground behind. I was not quite sure what you
1 meant by "stopping in the car park"?
2 A. Are there slats both sides there; I am
3 looking at them through the slats?
4 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I think there are, are
5 there not; there are slats to the north as well as to
6 the east?
7 MR CLARKE: Yes.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, is the answer?
9 A. I am looking through the slats and I had
10 always assumed that they were out on the corner as it
11 were rather than, and that is car park as well.
12 MR CLARKE: Could we have EP28.4A: this is a
13 photograph taken on the day. You can see that a lot of
14 people are fleeing to the south, to the middle block --
15 towards the middle block or towards the alleyways
16 between the block of flats.
17 Firstly, when you went to the stairwell,
18 which to orientate you is there, were there
19 approximately this number of people or more or less?
20 A. A good deal less.
21 Q. Less?
22 A. And that is Rossville Street behind where you
23 are.
24 Q. That is Rossville Street behind. We can see
25 in this photograph that one of the APCs came across
1 there, where I am pointing out, and I believe -- though
2 the photographs may be open to interpretation -- that
3 that is the Pig which ended up off the picture, up
4 facing towards Chamberlain Street.
5 If one looks at EP28.5, which is the next
6 photograph in the sequence; some more vehicles are
7 coming down Rossville Street, we can see them there,
8 and it may be that the vehicle that ended up at the
9 mouth of the car park is actually at this very moment
10 coming out of the top of the block 1 of the flats.
11 What appears then to have happened is that
12 one vehicle ended up in the photograph that I showed
13 you a moment ago at the mouth of the car park,
14 approximately where the red arrow on the screen is and
15 the other vehicle which went to the back of
16 Chamberlain Street, if we could have a look at
17 photograph P594, ended up, as we can see it in this
18 photograph, facing a building at the back of
19 Chamberlain Street just below Eden Place, which is
20 there.
21 Does that bring back any recollection; do you
22 remember seeing a vehicle drive towards the back of
23 Chamberlain Street quite some way away from the car
24 park?
25 A. If you can go back about two photographs,
1 I would like, if I can -- if you could go back two
2 photographs --
3 Q. EP28.4A, please.
4 A. -- I think I can answer your question,
5 Mr Clarke, and also deal with the question that was
6 raised by the Chairman. You see where this Pig is,
7 that is what I regarded, and in my statement when I say
8 "the car park", that is the space into which I saw the
9 three arrive. It was the third one from which the
10 soldiers were disembarking. Now it obviously became
11 stationary. I cannot say if the first or the second
12 stopped there, or whether, as you are inquiring,
13 whether they moved further along: three came in, the
14 soldiers were disembarking from the third one and it
15 was by and large located -- and it was out of those
16 slats that I would have been looking in that direction.
17 Q. You saw three coming into the area where
18 approximately your blue arrow is. One of them stopped
19 at the mouth; what happened to the other two you are
20 less sure of; is that right?
21 A. As I say, they moved forward. Perhaps my
22 statement, when I say "the car park", is misleading
23 insofar as that I am not talking about this territory,
24 I am talking about the territory -- is that immediately
25 northwest, or?
1 Q. Do not worry about the direction?
2 LORD SAVILLE: It is more or less north in
3 fact.
4 MR CLARKE: You say "the other two moved
5 forward"?
6 A. This was a third one, this is a momentary
7 glance through the slats and the three are sweeping
8 in -- I should say the three were sweeping in over my
9 shoulder off Rossville Street, coming in, if I have --
10 coming in like so, in a circle and the three seemed to
11 be stopping, but the one I saw, the soldier, disembark
12 from was a third one, the latter one.
13 Q. Did the three appear to you to stop fairly
14 close to each other?
15 A. They appeared to, within a matter of metres
16 of each other.
17 Q. May we then come, please, to KL2.13,
18 paragraphs 37 to 39? You describe there proceeding
19 south along the balcony of block 1, trying to enter the
20 first door, opening it and as you did so, hearing a
21 single shot which made a very sharp sound and appeared
22 to come from behind you to the north.
23 Is that the first shot that you heard that
24 day?
25 A. That is the first shot I heard. I am not
1 saying it was the first shot because, as I am coming up
2 the stairs, someone said "there is shooting".
3 Q. When somebody said that they were shooting,
4 did you have a recollection of hearing any noise at
5 all?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Had you heard the sound of rubber bullets
8 before you heard the single shot which you describe in
9 this paragraph?
10 A. Certainly at the corner of Rossville Street,
11 and I could not be sure whether it was rubber bullets
12 or gas cannisters, but there was certainly that duller
13 thud, yeah.
14 Q. When you were in Rossville Street coming down
15 to block 1 with the injured man, were you conscious of
16 hearing any rubber bullets in the wasteground or
17 anywhere like that?
18 A. I cannot recall distinguishing rubber bullets
19 from the general melee that there was.
20 Q. Would I be right to assume there was really
21 quite a lot of noise going on?
22 A. That is a correct presumption, yes.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, the Chairman again,
24 you may not be able to answer this: do you have any
25 idea which balcony you got onto?
1 A. I got onto the first balcony, I am pretty
2 sure I was on the first balcony. I am not sure,
3 Chairman -- I say there I tried to enter the first
4 door, it may have been the second; the first one that
5 opened, I think.
6 LORD SAVILLE: You think it was probably the
7 first balcony?
8 A. I think it was the first balcony, yes.
9 MR CLARKE: You describe in the succeeding
10 paragraphs how, once you had got into the flat you lay
11 on the floor with a sense of relief, more people dived
12 in, spread themselves around the room on their hands
13 and knees and you heard shots to the front, that is to
14 say to the side of the flat which overlooked
15 Rossville Street and there was then a lull and you
16 looked out of the window and saw a soldier lying flat
17 on the ground with his rifle slightly elevated,
18 pointing south towards Free Derry Corner at the spot
19 that you have marked as "C".
20 May we look at KL2.28. Sorry KL2. --
21 LORD SAVILLE: It is KL2.38 in our bundles.
22 MR CLARKE: Somebody has helpfully numbered
23 mine 28. The spot you have marked as "C" is just to
24 the side of the pram ramp at the north end of
25 Glenfada Park North; is that right?
1 A. I cannot be sure of where the pram ramps were
2 and "C" may have been a metre either way. What I do
3 recall was that there was something like a ridge wall.
4 The soldier was lower than a ridge wall, I think, that
5 was alongside there.
6 Q. Did you see any other soldier at that stage?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Or any army vehicles?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You describe in paragraph 39, KL2.13 --
11 A. If I may, you asked me there a moment ago did
12 I see any other soldiers or anyone; I am not saying
13 there was not any out in front, but my height above, my
14 eye is just above the windowsill, I would not have been
15 able to see directly below me onto the flats and ...
16 Q. You describe in paragraph 40 how the soldier
17 did not appear to feel himself under any threat or to
18 take cover.
19 If we go to paragraph 41 on the next page you
20 describe hearing a single shot and lowering your head
21 and the shot appeared to come from his direction; is
22 that right?
23 A. That is what I said, yes.
24 Q. Should we understand from that that there
25 appeared to be a shot fired towards the block in which
1 you were, or simply you heard the noise of a shot and
2 the noise appeared to come from where the soldier was
3 whom you had seen?
4 A. My impression would have been that the shot
5 was towards the Free Derry Corner. I do not know why
6 that was my impression, but I had no sense that they
7 were firing at me or us.
8 Q. If we could take paragraphs 43 to 46: you
9 describe remaining on the floor until Father Irwin came
10 and then subsequently, see paragraph 5 walking down the
11 stairs with Father Irwin and seeing a body near the
12 bottom of the stairwell, which you think was Kevin
13 McElhinney.
14 Did you know Kevin McElhinney?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So why do you think it was him?
17 A. I learned afterwards that it was. I learned
18 afterwards that that was probably who it was of the 13.
19 Q. You went out of the flats and saw the body of
20 Barney McGuigan and you helped to carry
21 Barney McGuigan, and the man you believe is Kevin
22 McElhinney, to the ambulance and got into the passenger
23 side; is that right?
24 A. I moved round to the passenger side to --
25 because there was a breach in the divide of the
1 ambulance, from what I remember, where you would have
2 communicated and I was still involved in organising or
3 trying to accommodate bodies in the ambulance.
4 Q. If we go to paragraph 48, you describe there
5 how, after you had gone to the passenger side of the
6 van to assist from there, the shooting started again
7 and you think that one shot came from the Free Derry
8 Corner and one from the city or William Street side.
9 You describe the sounds of those shots as varied, one
10 made a duller sound and the other made a sharper
11 sound.
12 Can you remember from which side the duller
13 side appeared to come?
14 A. I cannot be sure.
15 Q. Do you have any idea?
16 A. Um, I suspect that the duller sound came from
17 my left-hand side, which would have been the Free Derry
18 Corner.
19 Q. If we look at EP2.19, and if we look at the
20 man in the ambulance -- can we highlight that on the
21 left-hand side, please -- I understand you think that
22 that may be you?
23 A. I think it is.
24 Q. Had the shooting taken place, do you think,
25 before this photograph was taken?
1 A. I think definitely not because when the
2 shooting started to take place, I get on my knees on
3 the edge of the van, get my head under a seat and the
4 ambulance moves off while I am in that position while
5 the shooting is going on.
6 Q. If we could restore the whole of this
7 photograph. This photograph and a number of others
8 show the late Father Mulvey?
9 A. Indeed.
10 Q. He is in fact waving a handkerchief and there
11 is a series of photographs in which he walks further
12 north, that is to say further towards William Street.
13 It looks as if what he was doing, there is some
14 evidence he was, trying to stop people shooting because
15 there was an ambulance which needed to take people to
16 hospital. You would not have seen that, I assume
17 because, as we can see if that is you, you are sitting
18 in the ambulance facing Free Derry Corner.
19 Were you conscious of Father Mulvey being
20 there?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you very much, those are my questions.
23 Questioned by SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER
24 SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER: Mr Logue, just a few
25 questions. Could I first deal with your credentials:
1 for the last 15 years or so you have been working at
2 European Commission in Brussels, is that right?
3 A. 1984 to 1989 -- sorry, 1984 to 1999, yes.
4 Q. Variously acting as advisor to Presidents of
5 the Commission?
6 A. When it came to the peace package, I was an
7 advisor to both President Delors and then subsequently
8 for the next passage to President Santerre in the
9 construction of the peace and reconciliation packages
10 which you were provided.
11 Q. Being back to the early 1970s, you were
12 involved with the SDLP; is that right?
13 A. I was not when I joined the civil rights
14 movement and, even when I joined the Northern Ireland
15 Civil Rights Executive, that I became more and more
16 involved -- yes, I was a member of the first Executive,
17 which, I think, was by 1972.
18 Q. In 1973 did you stand and be elected to the
19 National Assembly on behalf of the SDLP?
20 A. I was, yeah.
21 Q. In 1974 did you stand as a Parliamentary
22 candidate for Westminster in the United Kingdom general
23 election?
24 A. For the SDLP.
25 Q. As an SDLP candidate?
1 A. I did, yeah.
2 Q. I assume from that period you had close
3 association with John Hume?
4 A. John Hume was the first person to mention to
5 me that I might seek a nomination for the SDLP.
6 Q. It was, presumably as a result of that period
7 of time, in the early 1970s, that you acquired the
8 great admiration for him which you expressed earlier?
9 A. Respect, I think, for him and over the years,
10 yeah.
11 Q. Can I now ask you to look at GEN5.29? This
12 is the second of the two January meetings which were
13 held by the Executive Committee at which you attended.
14 That is the one for 14th January?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You see your name there?
17 A. Yes, indeed.
18 Q. Would you then turn to page 30 and you will
19 see there a discussion, the first item on the agenda;
20 that is 29. Over on page 30 there was a discussion
21 about the disruption day; that would have been 9th
22 February, would it not?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And there were arrangements there for some
25 demonstration to take place and you were responsible,
1 I think it looks as if you are responsible for
2 arranging matters in Tyrone; is that right?
3 A. My primary responsibility is, I think, a
4 little lower where -- Derry county as well, yes.
5 Q. Would you turn over the page to 31: you will
6 see there a decision by the Executive Committee not to
7 meet with the Northern Resistance Committee again.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Am I right in assuming that you were one of
10 the six?
11 A. I suspect I was, insofar as I had agreed to
12 meet them once, and had met them once and had been
13 disillusioned by the direction that they were going.
14 Q. Would I be right in inferring from that, as a
15 demonstration of NICRA's determination to maintain its
16 independence and not to be associated with any
17 organisation, which did not in fact promote peaceful
18 non-violence?
19 A. If I may take a moment on that --
20 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, Mr Logue,
21 I would certainly like you to give a little bit of
22 explanation as to what direction you thought at the
23 time they were going?
24 A. Well, Chairman, the prospect of dealing with
25 them, the Northern Resistance Committee or Movement --
1 I think, NCM -- any attraction that it had essentially
2 was a geographic attraction because they were much
3 better based in South Tyrone, the Dungannon area; they
4 were much better based in Fermanagh. The
5 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was very
6 poorly organised in those areas and had some difficulty
7 mobilising, so from a geographic reason there would
8 have been an interest in spreading our effectiveness
9 had we been able to reach an accommodation.
10 My sense of them -- that is where I wanted to
11 pick up on what Sir Louis Blom-Cooper was saying --
12 I never had any sense of them being pro-violent, but
13 I had a sense of them being ex-sectarian. Coming back
14 to the issue of concentration on rights exclusively for
15 Catholics and discrimination against Catholics and, as
16 I said earlier, I do not have a sectarian bone in my
17 body and I do not believe I ever encountered, outside
18 of NRC, any sectarianism within the Civil Rights
19 Association.
20 That was where the alienation or the
21 disaffiliation would have been at its most -- at its
22 sharpest.
23 Q. Would I be right in assuming that that
24 demonstrated that NICRA was constantly on the lookout
25 for any association with other organisations in the
1 field, in the general field of civil rights?
2 A. We were constantly on the lookout --
3 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure I understood the
4 question.
5 SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER: I will rephrase it:
6 that NICRA was always concerned that any association
7 with any other body outside its own organisation should
8 be in conformity with the precepts of the civil rights
9 movement?
10 A. Yes, NICRA was an umbrella body, rather loose
11 umbrella body, but it was an inclusive body that
12 embraced anyone who was prepared to sign up to a
13 culture of non-violence and a means of protesting,
14 vigorous protesting, I have to say, but so long as it
15 was non-violent.
16 Q. Would you turn to KL2.10, paragraph 27? You
17 will see there that you assumed that the NICRA
18 Executive would have formally told the police of the
19 arrangements for the march. Where did you get that
20 assumption from?
21 A. We would have done so for the Magilligan
22 one. I think the Chief Inspector in the area at that
23 time may have been a policeman called Irwin and we
24 would have given him notice that we were doing it, and
25 I think it was a matter of course that you told the
1 police that you were going to march, or that you were
2 applying to march. They clearly were not going to give
3 you permission, but -- it was a formal thing rather
4 than anything else of telling them.
5 For example as regards Magilligan, I do not
6 think we gave the exact route to them at any stage, but
7 we would have informed them that we were going to.
8 Q. We have heard that from time to time
9 Brigid Bond had certainly informal talks with
10 Chief Inspector Lagan; did you know about those?
11 A. No, but it would not surprise me.
12 Frank Lagan was an outstanding policeman, working in
13 very difficult circumstances, who kept his ear to the
14 ground and had good relations with a wide range of
15 people as a matter of knowing what was going on.
16 I came to respect him a great deal.
17 Q. Did you yourself know Chief Inspector Lagan?
18 A. Very well.
19 Q. Did you have discussions with him from time
20 to time on policing matters?
21 A. More particularly after I became elected, say
22 1973. At that stage he was more in the city and I was
23 in the county and -- but I would regularly have had
24 discussions with him.
25 Q. How did you regard him?
1 A. Very highly.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 Questioned by MR LAWSON
4 MR LAWSON: Mr Logue, my name is Lawson and
5 I represent some of the soldiers.
6 Can I ask about a couple of matters, please,
7 concerning your evidence in relation to Bloody Sunday
8 itself before asking for your help on some slightly
9 more general issues. If we have on the screen, so that
10 you can see where my question comes from, KL2.11,
11 paragraph 29?
12 You indicated in your statement, which
13 I assume you adopt, that there was no sense of
14 foreboding about the march and that, for your part at
15 least, you did not know that the Paratroop Regiment
16 would be in Derry?
17 A. That is right, yes.
18 Q. It had not been suggested to you, I take it
19 in terms that the paras were going to be there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I am not being pedantic, but you say "I did
22 not know they were going to be there"; it had not been,
23 so far as you were aware, rumoured that they were going
24 to be there?
25 A. I had not heard it.
1 Q. It is just the Tribunal has heard from some
2 others that there was talk of the paras being there.
3 That, if it happened, did not reach your ears at least?
4 A. I think what I say is, in the context of the
5 previous week at Magilligan, there was the Green
6 Jackets, I think they were called, and the paras, and
7 the paras were an entirely different, of an entirely
8 different nature to the Green Jackets on that day and
9 I think had I realised that the paras were coming from
10 Magilligan to Derry, I would have been much more
11 apprehensive.
12 Q. The only other matter I want to ask you
13 about, is this: in relation to what you saw and heard
14 of shooting on Bloody Sunday -- I will not go over all
15 the ground that has been covered already, or I hope any
16 of it in repetition -- you were aware of APCs, of
17 Armoured Personnel Carriers stopping somewhere near the
18 end of block 1 of the flats, let us not worry about
19 precisely where, and soldiers jumping out?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. At that stage there was no firing?
22 A. I had not heard any shooting at that point,
23 but it is a matter of instantaneous -- a matter of
24 instance, minute seconds until that first shot I hear
25 and, as I say, someone already had said there was
1 shooting, but I had not heard.
2 Q. But you were a matter of feet away, a few
3 feet away, from where the APCs pulled up?
4 A. Yards.
5 Q. All right, yards, but you were not far away?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you were certainly not aware of any
8 substantial immediate firing?
9 A. I was aware that the soldiers were
10 disembarking from the vehicle and they were
11 disembarking in a manner which permitted them to use
12 their guns very promptly.
13 Q. Yes. Is my question a very difficult one for
14 you?
15 A. Can you repeat it?
16 Q. You, being a matter of yards away, you were
17 not aware of any substantial immediate firing; that is
18 true, is it not?
19 A. By whom?
20 Q. By the soldiers?
21 A. By those soldiers?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. The soldiers that was disembarking from --
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. That is right.
2 MR TOOHEY: Mr Lawson, can you clarify one
3 matter: you put to Mr Logue a question in form that
4 suggested he had said that soldiers had disembarked
5 from the Saracens plural. I took his evidence to be
6 that they had disembarked, so far as he could see, from
7 one of the Saracens; could we clarify that.
8 MR LAWSON: Certainly, sir. Was it one
9 Saracen or more than one Saracen? It is right to say
10 in your statement to the Inquiry at the foot of page
11 KL2.12, you refer to soldiers jumping out of the
12 Saracen in the singular, but you also refer to more
13 than one Saracen stopping.
14 Can you help Mr Toohey in relation to that?
15 A. I think, again, it is the third Saracen
16 arriving in that I thought the soldiers were
17 disembarking from and the member of the Tribunal's
18 recollection, I think, is correct in this.
19 Q. It is one Saracen, as you recall?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That stopped very close to where you were,
22 looking through the slats?
23 A. Yes, there was three Saracens and it was the
24 third of them.
25 Q. As you have said in your statement, and
1 doubtless will confirm, the first shot of which you
2 were aware occurred after you had entered into the
3 flat, whether it be the first or second along the first
4 floor balcony?
5 A. Can I say that -- can I see what I said
6 because I thought I said the first shot on the
7 balcony?
8 LORD SAVILLE: Paragraph 37, the next
9 paragraph on the next page.
10 MR LAWSON: Top of page 13, if you want to
11 look at that:
12 "As I proceeded south along the balcony
13 [which you told the Chairman was the first
14 balcony] I tried to enter the first door. I opened it
15 and as I entered the flat I heard a single shot."
16 A. That single shot may well have been, as
17 I say, "as I entered the flat"; it may have been a
18 split second in advance of that.
19 Q. That is the first shot you were aware, at
20 least, whatever others may have been saying about other
21 shooting?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. That is right. Without trying to put a
24 precise time upon it, is it also right, then, that a
25 short time later there was further shooting that you
1 heard?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. Not many shots, as you recall?
4 A. If that is what I recall, sorry, where is
5 it?
6 Q. I am sorry?
7 A. I am looking for what I recall here.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Can we have the next paragraph
9 up, then?
10 MR LAWSON: You certainly can, paragraph 38,
11 where you say in the anti-penultimate line:
12 "It did not seem to be many"?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Is that your current recollection?
15 A. That is my recollection.
16 Q. It is. It was after those relatively few
17 shots, then, that you looked out of the window.
18 I want your assistance with this: you have
19 described seeing a soldier in a prone position with the
20 gun pointing upwards towards Free Derry Corner. You
21 have the hard copy of the statement in front of you,
22 I need not go to every passage, need I?
23 As I understood the evidence you have given
24 to the Tribunal this morning, you have no recollection
25 of seeing any other soldier when you looked out of the
1 window?
2 A. But you recall my correction as well, that
3 I would not have had a full view of all of
4 Rossville Street. I would have from my point only have
5 been able to see across on to that pavement.
6 Q. Into the road as well?
7 A. Well, not more than, um, one-third of one
8 side of the road.
9 Q. Were you aware, for example, of a soldier
10 walking or running down that road at about that point,
11 shooting his gun willy-nilly from the hip?
12 A. Well, you take it -- if you even look at this
13 desk now and I have a much higher view than I had of
14 the windowsill, I cannot see what is down in front of
15 me here. I can see across -- the trajectory of my
16 sight does not permit me to see what is on this side
17 (indicating) or contiguous to the building.
18 Q. The answer is no?
19 A. You asked me what I saw?
20 Q. I asked you if you saw or were aware of a
21 soldier walking or running down past where you were in
22 the flats shooting from the hip?
23 A. Which side of the road would that have been
24 on?
25 Q. On the side of the road that you were
1 overlooking?
2 A. On the side of the road --
3 Q. On Rossville Street itself. I cannot give
4 you a precise position, I want you to know, if you can
5 assist the Inquiry, whether you saw or whether you
6 heard what apparently was, more particularly whether
7 you saw a soldier walking or running down and about the
8 area you have indicated where the man was prone, and
9 shooting from the hip?
10 A. On that side I did not see -- I cannot say if
11 it was in the middle of the road, if someone was doing
12 it on the middle of the road or on the side of the
13 road, Rossville Street, contiguous to the
14 Rossville Flats, I would not have had a view of that,
15 so I cannot comment.
16 Q. Can I ask you, please, about a few other
17 matters arising from your earlier evidence? Could you
18 have on the screen KL2.2, please, paragraph 5, about
19 which you were asked some questions by Mr Clarke -- I
20 shall not repeat a single one of those.
21 Do you see four lines from the foot of the
22 passage that is on the screen is reference to, in your
23 words "the few mal contents" in the North Derry CRA who
24 belonged to the Official Republicans?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who were the few mal contents?
2 A. There I am referring to a small group who
3 were more concern -- they would probably have been more
4 of the Republican Clubs and they were more concerned
5 with petition signing, holding seminars or collective
6 ownership of wealth and such matters and -- whereas we
7 were, insofar as we held seminars, much more keen on
8 issues pertinent on identity where we sought to engage
9 the Protestant community and the community relations
10 commission on their sense of identity, whether they
11 were British, whether they were Irish, whether they
12 were Ulster, whether they were both. So that was the
13 kind of mal contents I was talking about.
14 Q. My question was: who were the few mal
15 contents?
16 A. This is in North Derry Civil Rights
17 Association?
18 Q. Yes?
19 A. Do you want names?
20 Q. Please.
21 A. I would need to, again, have some recall of
22 those names, and I think it would be unfair from this
23 authority to have the name "mal content" around anyone
24 30 years later when they are perfectly civilised
25 citizens and they were only expressing a different
1 point of view from the point of view that was at our
2 meetings. They had nothing whatever to do with any
3 attempt -- they had never any advocation of violence.
4 Indeed, sir, if I was to recall any one occasion on
5 North Derry's CRA where there was an occasion where
6 anyone proposed violence, it was the two, what we would
7 call "agents provocateurs" that the Security Forces had
8 within our organisation.
9 They brought, at one stage, to us a map of
10 the army barracks at Ballykelly, its water supply; they
11 had a ready supply, they said, of strychnine and they
12 would have made that available to us. We dismissed it
13 out of hand. We could see it a mile away; it was a
14 setup by the Security Forces to try to implicate the
15 North Derry CRA in a violent act and we would have no
16 part of it.
17 Q. Mass murder, putting strychnine in the water
18 supply?
19 A. That was what those who were in the
20 organisation at the behest of the Security Forces were
21 proposing to is. If you call that mass murder, I am
22 prepared to agree with you.
23 Q. That is what it sounds like, putting
24 strychnine in the water supply is what you are saying
25 they were procuring you to do. These are the people
1 you refer to in paragraph 14 of your statement, are
2 they, at KL2.5?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I do not want you to name them at the moment;
5 do you remember who they were?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. You say there "they were allowed to remain as
8 members of the association"?
9 A. They were, where do I say -- I would be of
10 the view that, long before John Major, that having them
11 in the tent rather than outside the tent was the best
12 way to deal with them.
13 Q. And they remained, what, through 1972, did
14 they, in the organisation?
15 A. I think so, yeah.
16 Q. Are you prepared privately to identify them
17 to the Inquiry?
18 A. One is now dead.
19 Q. And the other?
20 A. I have no idea where he is.
21 Q. Are you prepared to identify them privately
22 to the Inquiry? I presume you do not want publicly to
23 declare their identity and I do not ask that you do so;
24 will you give the Inquiry their names in private?
25 A. If the Inquiry can persuade me that it is
1 useful to the Inquiry, then I am ready to do that, yes.
2 Q. You seem fit, Mr Logue, have you not, to make
3 the allegation and now to allege that these people in
4 fact sought to incite, amongst other things, mass
5 murder. We have no way and the Inquiry has no way of
6 verifying that unless you are prepared to give the
7 names?
8 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Logue has said he
9 is prepared to give the Inquiry the names if the
10 Inquiry thinks it is worth pursuing this matter; did
11 I understand you correctly, Mr Logue.
12 MR LAWSON: Well, he said even if the Inquiry
13 persuades him to do so.
14 MR TOOHEY: I have to say, Mr Lawson, I think
15 Mr Logue was rather led into this by the line of
16 questioning. That is not to suggest the questioning
17 was any way unfair or improper, but I think it has
18 developed through the questioning.
19 MR LAWSON: Sir, you are absolutely right.
20 I was going to come to that passage of his statement in
21 due course, but Mr Logue mentioned these people in the
22 context of another topic I was exploring with him. Be
23 that as it may, I am sorry if I interrupted Mr Clarke
24 who, I think, was about to say something.
25 MR CLARKE: I was about to say it is slightly
1 academic. We do know who the names of these people are
2 as they were in what we know from Eversheds discussions
3 with this witness who they are.
4 MR LAWSON: You have already told the
5 Inquiry?
6 MR CLARKE: Yes.
7 MR LAWSON: Sorry, I would not have wasted
8 time had I known that.
9 Can I ask you this, sir, generally about
10 NICRA. It is right, is it, there was somewhat of a
11 lull in the activities of NICRA after 1969 and before
12 internment?
13 A. Well, I only joined NICRA in 1970 and I think
14 there was a lull prior to internment.
15 Q. Do you agree that the introduction of
16 internment gave what has been described as "a real shot
17 in the arm" to the civil rights movement, enabling it
18 to come back with a bang; you may not agree with the
19 precise words, but do you agree with that sentiment?
20 A. I believe that it was unthinkable for
21 something like internment to have been introduced and
22 for one not to confront it as NICRA did. There was a
23 real anger in the community and it was important that
24 that anger was channelled into non-violent means and
25 the complete withdrawal of consent by the citizens from
1 the institutions was assisted in a non-violent manner
2 and NICRA provided an useful means of doing that.
3 Q. I am seeking your comment on what someone
4 else has said, but I will move on. Let me ask you
5 about this: Magilligan, and the march at Magilligan.
6 Was that a NICRA or NICRA approved demonstration?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You indicated in your evidence today that
9 your, that is the North Derry CRA's assurances to NICRA
10 would have been fully accepted?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. So the march was approved by NICRA itself?
13 A. They were aware of it, and given endorsement
14 -- would have given an endorsement.
15 Q. So the march was held, was it, in accordance
16 with NICRA guidelines?
17 A. NICRA guidelines, in terms of the selection
18 of speakers, the stewarding, yes.
19 Q. Can you help as to this from your local
20 knowledge, the Andersonstown Civil Resistance Movement,
21 what was that?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. No idea?
24 A. In terms of local knowledge, Andersonstown is
25 70, 80 miles away. It is the west of Belfast; we are
1 in the north of Derry.
2 Q. They were invited to the march?
3 A. Were they?
4 Q. At Magilligan?
5 A. No-one was invited. There was ads placed in
6 the newspapers and everybody was encouraged to turn up.
7 Q. I just wonder as the Tribunal has a video
8 with a very, very large banner of that organisation;
9 you do not know who they are, though?
10 A. People were invited to bring their banners
11 and identify themselves and people regularly walked
12 behind their own banner.
13 Q. It was not just civil rights banners?
14 A. There were all banners, there were civil
15 rights banners. You said the Andersonstown Civil
16 Rights --
17 Q. Civil Resistance Movement; I just wondered if
18 you knew what it was?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. Two other matters, then, in relation to
21 Magilligan: you indicate in your statement, if we
22 highlight the bottom part of page 8 at KL2. I will not
23 ask you to go back to it, having earlier in the
24 statement perceived the imperative nature of having to
25 get to Magilligan soon after it opened you remember
1 telling the Tribunal about, you there say on the
2 penultimate paragraph on the screen:
3 "Our intention was to get as close to the
4 prison as possible"; do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. To do what?
7 A. To allow the internees to be aware of our
8 presence.
9 Q. What were you going to do when you got there?
10 A. We would probably have handed a letter of
11 protest and returned, like we did on our previous
12 occasions.
13 Q. That was all you wanted to do: turn up at the
14 prison, give them a letter of protest and go away
15 again?
16 A. Having demonstrated clearly public support
17 for -- public opposition to the introduction of
18 internment. I think you must understand, sir, at that
19 point Magilligan had to be confronted because not only
20 was it internment, but the setting up of Magilligan
21 indicated that for the Government it was their
22 intention to continue with internment; internment was
23 there to stay, it was not a short-term policy, so that
24 had to be confronted.
25 Q. Can I ask you about one further matter in
1 relation to Magilligan: It arises in this way: if you
2 remember my learned friend Mr Clarke, Counsel for the
3 Inquiry, asked you about -- for your comment on the
4 suggestion of people seeking to get around the barbed
5 wire fence or barricade by going into the sea; do you
6 remember?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Your reaction was to say, well, that might be
9 what the army say?
10 A. I think I gave your learned friend Mr Clarke
11 and comprehensive answer on that in terms of the wire
12 coming down to the water -- the high water mark and
13 people trying to turn around, get beyond that point,
14 indeed into the water to do so.
15 Q. Can I ask for your assistance and your
16 commentary upon some contemporaneous material; it is
17 the last thing I want to ask you about. Would you
18 look, please, on the screen with me at L9, which, as
19 you can see is an article entitled "The Brutal
20 Soldiery" written by somebody called Simon Hoggart.
21 I can tell you it comes from the Guardian newspaper of
22 25th January 1972.
23 The passage I draw your attention and which
24 I invite your comment, can we look at the first column
25 on the left and start from, I think it is the third
1 paragraph:
2 "The march at Magilligan ...".
3 By all means take your time to read it to
4 yourself. You will see the first two of the paragraphs
5 on the page refer to a suggestion that Colonel Welsh
6 offered tea and buns, rejected by Mr O'Kane, who led
7 the demonstrators along the muddy track three miles up
8 the beach.
9 Do you see that; does that ring a bell?
10 A. Yes, as does the massive foam generating
11 machine.
12 Q. Then, it continues:
13 "Here troops had unrolled a long roll of
14 barbed wire across the beach to stop the crowd getting
15 within view of the huts and watch towers"; is that
16 right?
17 A. That is right, as far as I recall.
18 Q. "Behind the wire were ranged a company of
19 Green Jackets, about 80 men of the First Battalion of
20 the Parachute Regiment, as well as about 80 police."
21 There were certainly Green Jackets, paras and
22 police there, were there not?
23 A. Yes, my recollection was that the
24 Green Jackets were in front and the paras were behind;
25 I cannot be sure.
1 Q. Then this in particular:
2 "Trouble started when a small portion of the
3 crowd took advantage of the low tide to try to sneak
4 round the seaward end of the barbed wire coils. As
5 they did so paratroopers opened fire with volley after
6 volley of rubber bullets, hitting several demonstrators
7 who buckled up into the seawater, causing the crowd to
8 charge over to their help ..."
9 Then there is reference to hand-to-hand
10 fighting and batons, rubber bullets, et cetera being
11 used.
12 That is how that particular reporter
13 described the trouble starting. You were there; do you
14 agree with that?
15 A. I agree with a great deal of what is there.
16 The rubber bullets -- what he has left unsaid is that
17 the volley of rubber bullets that were fired were fired
18 as the people who ran towards the sea began to run from
19 the march towards the sea. They had not got to the sea
20 and they had not got round the wire or anything else.
21 Your soldiers panicked and started firing right away,
22 so that those people would be prevented from ever
23 getting round that side.
24 Q. Sir, the violence, if you like, began, you
25 agree with this, when some of the demonstrators
1 indicated they were going to try to get round the
2 barrier?
3 A. They went into the sea to try to circumvent
4 the barbed wire.
5 Q. I think that is, yes, is it not?
6 Questioned by MR ELIAS
7 MR ELIAS: Mr Logue, would you accept that,
8 leaving aside the question of infiltration by the IRA
9 -- I do not suggest it in the sense of --
10 A. Can I ask who are you?
11 Q. My name is Elias and I act for a number of
12 former soldiers and military personnel. Leaving aside
13 the question of infiltration by IRA members of NICRA,
14 in the sense that they may have influenced the
15 organisation, either at Executive level or at any local
16 level, would you accept that within NICRA, either at
17 its Executive level or locally, there could have been
18 at the time we are discussing persons on committees and
19 active within NICRA who in fact were active IRA
20 members?
21 A. I really have to say to you, sir, that
22 I cannot believe that you say you leave aside
23 infiltration, I cannot believe that you are still
24 peddling this line, that there are IRA people or IRA
25 sympathisers on the Executive or holding any authority
1 within the civil rights movement.
2 As I recall, the Cameron Commission said, and
3 I have written it down because I have seen this so
4 often:
5 "There was no sign that they were dominant or
6 in a position to control or direct the policy of
7 NICRA. There were no signs that the IRA were members
8 of the association."
9 Q. I peddle no line, sir, at all, I ask you a
10 question: you were not aware, you have told the
11 Tribunal a little earlier, if it be the case, that
12 Liam McMillen was active and a senior man in the IRA;
13 that is correct, is it not?
14 A. I said -- you have again said "if it be the
15 case". No-one has yet proved to me that Liam McMillen
16 -- I said to you that he signed up to -- I took
17 everyone at face value, I was inclusive and that
18 Liam McMillen was a signed-up person of the Civil
19 Rights Executive, committed to non-violence.
20 If Liam McMillen had at any stage or at any
21 time either acted violently or proposed violence,
22 I would have confronted him, I can assure you of that.
23 Q. By what means, to take that example, did he
24 sign up to non-violence?
25 A. By being a member of the Northern Ireland
1 Civil Rights Executive, I assume, that he accepted the
2 constitution of that Executive.
3 Q. That assumption would have been made in any
4 case, would it, without further investigation of the
5 individual concerned or his or her background?
6 A. I think people's word was taken, yes.
7 Q. May I ask you about paragraph 48 of your
8 statement, quite a different matter, and about the shot
9 that you believe to have been, perhaps the duller sound
10 coming from the Free Derry Corner side. You were in
11 the ambulance at the time you hear that shot, were you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have any idea of where that shot came
14 from, apart from saying the Free Derry Corner side of
15 the Rossville Flats?
16 A. None.
17 Q. Did you have any idea of how far away from
18 you the shot appeared to have been fired?
19 A. None, other than that I assume the sharper
20 shot was probably closer. I mean, I have no knowledge
21 of arms at all, so I cannot say, no.
22 Q. Could the shot, for example, have been from,
23 talking of the lower, of the duller sound shot, could
24 it for example have been from the Rossville Flats
25 itself?
1 A. I think I made clear a number of times that
2 I do not believe for one second that there was anyone
3 firing from the Rossville Flats, otherwise the soldier
4 mentioned in my statement would have been a sitting
5 target, so I do not -- it never crossed my mind for a
6 second, I have never contemplated and I have never
7 accepted General Ford's and other agencies' suggestion
8 that there was anyone firing from Rossville Flats. It
9 would have been so easy to have shot the soldier that
10 I saw if that had been the case, so I do not think, in
11 relation to the ambulance, that it could have been
12 anywhere near there because the ambulance was right
13 beside Rossville Flats.
14 Q. So, apart from saying that it was south of
15 the ambulance, you cannot assist us further?
16 A. I said Free Derry Corner or beyond.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR CLARKE: Just two matters.
19 Could we have hotspot 11, please? This is a
20 picture taken recently of Glenfada Park North and you
21 can see that there is, on what is now the right-hand
22 side of the screen, a pram ramp. If I zoom slightly
23 you can see that in front of Glenfada Park itself there
24 is a low wall about five bricks high which runs
25 parallel to the block as it goes down towards Free
1 Derry Corner.
2 As I understand your evidence, the soldier
3 whom you saw was somewhere just at the north of this
4 block, and you mentioned something, which I am afraid
5 I did not quite pick up, about his position in relation
6 to what I think you may have been referring to as this
7 small wall we see here; have I understood that
8 correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He was lying on the ground; was he close to
11 the wall, was any part of him on the wall?
12 A. The wall was a backdrop to him. I would not
13 have thought that he was more than a metre from the
14 wall and he was lying on the ground. My impression,
15 Mr Clarke, is that he had his elbows on the ground.
16 His head would have been higher, if you know what
17 I mean.
18 Q. But the wall was, as you say, a backdrop to
19 where he was?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The last matter I wanted to ask you --
22 LORD SAVILLE: I am wondering, if we take the
23 artist's panorama of the virtual reality, -- this,
24 Mr Logue, is partly modern photographer, but also
25 superimposing on the other side of the street an
1 impression of the Rossville Street Flats. If we did a
2 complete 180 degrees swing round, you may or may not be
3 able to help us a little further on this question. It
4 was only an idea. There they are, they are the flats.
5 Swing on round. We can come back to the view that you
6 were shown. That is an impression of the barricade,
7 coming on round we come back to the picture Mr Clarke
8 showed you. I do not know whether that assists you in
9 any way to help us any more on the position of the
10 soldier who you say you saw?
11 A. Thank you, Chairman. What I think would be
12 of assistance would be to know, the diagonal across
13 from -- I think it is the second rather than the first,
14 the second flat on the first road where that came
15 across, was that the first or second balcony there,
16 that is what I really --
17 LORD SAVILLE: A photograph might possibly
18 show that. I was thinking of a general photograph
19 looking down on the Rossville Street Flats from which
20 one might be able to see across to the Glenfada side.
21 MR CLARKE: Yes, there is one somewhere.
22 There is a photograph taken from the flats, I cannot
23 for the moment remember where it is.
24 A. My recollection, Chairman, is that the flats
25 begin a little bit further down and are not directly
1 opposite.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Perhaps, while we are looking
3 for the photograph, if we look at KL2.38, we have the
4 map. We have the map up at the moment, Mr Clarke. You
5 see where you have put your "C" on the map?
6 A. Yes.
7 LORD SAVILLE: The low wall we have just seen
8 in the photograph starts more or less immediately
9 behind that letter "C" and runs southwards down to the
10 rubble barricade as marked?
11 A. May I -- if we begin with the letter "A",
12 the top of block A, and you come down, still staying
13 within that box and you go directly across, then
14 diagonally across, comme ca, yeah, I think we are a
15 little further north than that. We are clearly not
16 talking of the soldier being under the first parapet,
17 therefore, of Glenfada Park, we are talking of either
18 the second or the third.
19 MR CLARKE: Yes, I follow. The best I can do
20 --
21 LORD SAVILLE: By "parapet" you mean balcony?
22 A. Balcony.
23 MR CLARKE: The best I can do is EP35.18:
24 this is a photograph that has been taken from the
25 Rossville Flats itself, though I suspect from a little
1 further south to the position where you were, but it
2 does show the sort of view you get from a flat in --
3 A. But I think it is either the second or third
4 that we are looking at here, because first -- it is too
5 far north to be directly -- to be diagonally across
6 from Rossville.
7 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Hoyt has a couple
8 of suggestions for photographs.
9 MR HOYT: P204, P209.
10 LORD SAVILLE: P209 is possibly, looking at
11 the hard copy, a good one. That is the sort of
12 photograph I had in mind that may or may not help.
13 Does that help you at all, do you think?
14 A. Yes, well you take -- let us come down there
15 and come directly across, so I think we are looking
16 at -- yes, I would be looking more at the second.
17 LORD SAVILLE: That, I think, looking at the
18 second possibly, second balcony, that is to say. We
19 all appreciate you cannot necessarily be too exact, but
20 would the arrow you put on the screen here indicate as
21 best you can the position?
22 A. Where is Glenfada? This is Glenfada, or
23 this?. (Marked with a blue arrow).
24 LORD SAVILLE: The tip of your arrow is just
25 up against the eastern wall of Glenfada Park North?
1 A. The second, the second balcony.
2 LORD SAVILLE: It might be worth keeping that
3 one.
4 MR CLARKE: Can we save that, please, and
5 give it the number KL2.42?
6 The only last thing I wanted to ask you,
7 Mr Logue, is this: in relation to Civil Rights
8 Associations, we see in the papers sometimes a
9 reference to North Derry and sometimes a reference to
10 Derry county.
11 Are they the same in this context?
12 A. They should not be, but as it turned out,
13 North Derry was much more active than South Derry and
14 we worked together and we tended to be, as I say, more
15 responsive and prompt. South Derry, insofar as it
16 operated, was much more Maghera, Magherafelt,
17 Castledawson, that part --
18 Q. Was there a North Derry Civil Rights
19 Association and a South Derry Civil Rights Association?
20 A. There was.
21 Q. If we see in the papers Derry county in the
22 context of civil rights, which one would it mean, or
23 would it be ambiguous?
24 A. I am not sure obviously, I cannot.
25 Q. If you cannot be sure, we cannot be sure
1 either?
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, thank you very much
3 indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry. Thank
4 you very much. It is mid-day, Mr Clarke, I think we
5 will stop now until ten to one, and I understand it is
6 Mr Morrison.
7 MR CLARKE: Yes.
8 (12.05 pm)
9 (The luncheon adjournment)
10 (12.55 pm)
11 MR CHARLES COLUMBA MORRISON, sworn
12 Questioned by MR RAWAT
13 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Morrison, if you look to
14 your right you will see who is addressing you. I am
15 the Chairman. The questions will come in the main from
16 the barristers who sit in front of me. I say this to
17 all the witnesses -- you have no doubt heard me say it
18 -- could you remember to keep your face reasonably
19 close to that microphone.
20 One other thing I would like to say, you
21 kindly supplied us this morning with a document you
22 have written. We have read it. We have decided to
23 treat it as part of your evidence, so it will appear,
24 in effect, as a further statement from you, attached to
25 your evidence. We have of course distributed copies of
1 it to all the interested parties, and of course to the
2 media.
3 MR RAWAT: Mr Morrison, do you have a copy of
4 your statement to this Inquiry which you signed on 18th
5 July 1999?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. There was also a supplementary statement you
8 made which was signed on 23rd March this year?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. We have also seen the statement you have made
11 of today's date?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are the contents of all these statements true
14 to the best of your knowledge and belief?
15 A. Yes, they are.
16 Q. As you can see on the screen in front of you,
17 the first page of the first statement, which is
18 AM427.1, is now just there on the screen. We have all
19 had an opportunity to read through all three of your
20 statements. I today just want to ask you some
21 questions about some aspects of those statements.
22 Looking at the page that is on the screen,
23 paragraphs 1 and 2, what you say there is at the time
24 of Bloody Sunday you were both on the Executive of the
25 Derry Civil Rights Association and also on the
1 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. And you had joined the Derry CRA in 1968 on
4 your return to this city and following your meeting
5 Brigid Bond and in your time after joining you say you
6 had been involved in helping to organise a lot of the
7 earlier civil rights marches?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Acting mostly as a steward?
10 A. Steward.
11 Q. We know in your supplemental statement of
12 March of this year, you make the point that internment
13 represented the rebirth of Derry CRA. Are we to take
14 from that that there had been a period prior to
15 Bloody Sunday when no marches had been put on?
16 A. Yes. I worked locally with Brigid mostly on
17 housing issues and normally just affecting the people
18 in the area, and would have helped out doing these
19 particular things. When the violence came about,
20 everybody was quite concerned and scared, including
21 myself, and there was the general feeling that it would
22 have been foolish to take people on the streets at that
23 particular time.
24 Q. So, had it been a period of about 18 months
25 before Bloody Sunday when there had been no marches
1 organised by the Derry CRA?
2 A. I remember a march in Magilligan, not the big
3 march, you talked of one -- the very small, or meeting,
4 a very small one. On recollection I just could not be
5 specific, but I do not think the activity was of any
6 significance.
7 Q. If we could now go to that supplemental
8 statement, AM427.15 -- highlight paragraphs 1 to 4,
9 please. This statement was made to deal, as you say at
10 the top, specifically with the organisation of NICRA
11 and the organisation of stewards on the day and I hope
12 that I do not unfairly summarise it if I say that the
13 point you make is that you have very little
14 recollection of how the march was organised and you
15 also make the point that you did not attend many of the
16 meetings because you were at work?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. What you do say in paragraph 4, in response
19 to the statement of Michael Havord, is that you were
20 not lead steward on Bloody Sunday?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. I do not know -- Mr Havord gave evidence
23 yesterday and he corrected that aspect of his
24 statement?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. He confirmed that you were not the chief
2 steward. What you say is that the chief steward was a
3 Mr Durey, who has now passed away?
4 A. Yes, in the section of the march that I was
5 on that day --
6 MR ELIAS: May I interrupt for a moment?
7 Sir, we do not have, I think it is true of all those on
8 this side of the room, the supplementary statement.
9 LORD SAVILLE: The one that is on the screen
10 at the moment?
11 MR ELIAS: Yes.
12 LORD SAVILLE: I do not know what has
13 happened, Mr Elias, it is certainly in our bundles.
14 MR ELIAS: Could we perhaps, while the
15 witness is giving his evidence, be provided with
16 copies?
17 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, and please let me know if
18 this omission is causing you any difficulties.
19 MR RAWAT: Perhaps what I will do is go back
20 to Mr Morrison's first statement and deal with that
21 aspect of his evidence.
22 If we could go back, please, to AM427.1 and
23 paragraph 4. In that statement, which is the first
24 statement you made to the Inquiry, you deal there with
25 what contact there may have been between Brigid Bond
1 and first of all the IRA and secondly the RUC. If we
2 deal with the IRA, you say that:
3 "I know that prior to the march on
4 Bloody Sunday, Brigid received assurances from both the
5 Provisional and Official IRA that they would not be
6 attending the march."
7 You say later -- you were not actually
8 present at any meetings. Were you told by Brigid Bond
9 before Bloody Sunday that she had received assurances?
10 A. With the passage of time, it is difficult to
11 be accurate, but I was there when these comments were
12 passed, yeah, and I am sure that, possibly it did come
13 from Brigid.
14 Q. Were they comments made at a Derry CRA
15 meeting?
16 A. It would have been probably in the house,
17 Brigid's house, because I was always calling in there,
18 to the house, you know. There was a general feeling
19 that the civil rights people were just going on their
20 own to the march and --
21 Q. If I could ask you to speak up a little bit?
22 A. Very sorry.
23 Q. You say it was a general feeling?
24 A. Yeah, that there would be no paramilitaries
25 around the march.
1 Q. Did Mrs Bond say she had spoken to both wings
2 of the IRA directly?
3 A. I cannot be specific that she actually said
4 those words, as I say, because of the passage of time,
5 but I am aware that that was the general comments that
6 were going about at that time.
7 Q. Although you had not organised, or the CRA
8 had not organised a march for some time, they had
9 organised marches in the past. Would this Derry CRA
10 have tried to obtain assurances from the IRA in
11 relation to those previous marches?
12 A. I have no knowledge of that, no.
13 Q. Let us go on to the dealings with the RUC
14 Chief, you say a person to whom Brigid Bond was quite
15 close. This was Chief Superintendent Lagan, was it
16 not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You say there:
19 "... it was agreed to move the meeting at
20 the end of the march to Free Derry Corner in order to
21 try and avoid a confrontation with the army on
22 William Street."
23 Was that decision to move the meeting made
24 before Bloody Sunday?
25 A. It is difficult to really answer that,
1 because I cannot refer to a specific meeting, but the
2 opinion was -- certainly my opinion was -- if the army
3 had a barrier there was no chance of getting into the
4 city centre. Free Derry Corner was the logical place
5 to go and to direct the people there.
6 I certainly can say that NICRA was a
7 profoundly peaceful organisation and if there would
8 have been any possibility of serious confrontation,
9 I certainly would have had no part of that, or
10 encouraged that in any way.
11 Q. Although we cannot see it in the highlighted
12 part, it is a point that you make in paragraph 5 of
13 your statement. That is a paragraph we have all had
14 the chance to read.
15 Can I move on to Bloody Sunday itself. If we
16 could have AM427.2 and highlight, please, paragraphs 6
17 to 8. We are moving now to the actual day,
18 Mr Morrison?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Picking up paragraph 6, you say there:
21 "I think that one of the reasons why the
22 march on Bloody Sunday was so big was that the
23 population of Derry was angered by the policy of
24 internment."
25 Can we take it that the CRA expected a large
1 turnout of people?
2 A. Yes, I would assume, given the feelings, even
3 personal friends of mine and many people talked in the
4 community, internment had a terrible effect on the
5 people, they were so angry about it.
6 Q. And you joined the march up in the Creggan,
7 as you say in paragraph 7. Had you been asked to be
8 a steward prior to the day itself?
9 A. As far as I can recall, yes. I normally
10 would have taken up roles like that.
11 Q. When you were up -- not Creggan, I think in
12 Bishop's Field, did you see Kevin McCorry up there?
13 A. I cannot specifically recall seeing him,
14 again because of the passage of time, but I have no
15 doubt Kevin was there organising with the loudhailer.
16 I reasonably could say yes, that would be correct.
17 Q. If it helps, we do have some video footage
18 which shows Mr McCorry using a loudhailer at the start
19 of the march and he has accepted that he was chief
20 steward on the march. What I want to ask you about is
21 where you say in paragraph 7:
22 "It was a point of principle to always try to
23 get to the Guildhall, but we fully expected that
24 William Street and the surrounding area would be
25 blocked off. As I have explained, the stewards on the
1 march were under instruction to try to direct the crowd
2 to Free Derry Corner and away from the barrier on
3 William Street."
4 As a steward, did you get those instructions?
5 A. I know there was a general feeling we would
6 not be going to the Guildhall and I was somewhat into
7 the march, I was not at the very start of the march, so
8 I would not be aware of the instructions the stewards
9 got at the very front of the march. I am sure they
10 were --
11 Q. As far as you were concerned, it was simply
12 that you were not likely to go to the Guildhall and
13 would end up at Free Derry Corner?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let us move on, in that case, to paragraph
16 10. If we could have paragraphs 8 to 10, please. And
17 you say in paragraph 8, picking up the last two
18 sentences, where you were particularly close to the
19 front and you were with your wife Kathleen:
20 "I was wearing a steward's armband and trying
21 to keep the crowd orderly and moving."
22 If I pick it up at paragraph 10, what it says
23 there is:
24 "As the lorry turned [this is turning into
25 Rossville Street from William Street] I could see that
1 not all of the crowd were following it south on to
2 Rossville Street. A small group of youths had decided
3 to continue east along William Street.
4 "As a steward, I decided to make my way down
5 to the barrier to try to persuade them to turn around
6 and go to Free Derry Corner."
7 Was that a decision you made yourself at that
8 time?
9 A. No, on reflection I remember Kevin McCorry
10 with the loudhailer calling for stewards to come down
11 to the area, I remember that on reflection now.
12 Q. How many stewards can you remember going down
13 to William Street and the barrier?
14 A. I cannot be specific, but I left meself to go
15 down.
16 Q. It was only Kevin McCorry that was using
17 a loudhailer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Picking up on the next page, paragraph 11,
20 you describe there what was happening at barrier 14, as
21 we call it, when you arrived. We have already had
22 quite a bit of evidence about what was going on,
23 I really want to ask you what stewards were doing.
24 If I summarise this paragraph: you believe
25 that there were 100 to 150 people down there and that
1 by the time you arrived with Kevin McCorry, a small
2 riot had already broken out. You describe that as "not
3 particularly aggressive" and simply throwing stones and
4 shouting and Mr McCorry began using his loudhailer.
5 Can I show you a photograph, P1033? Do you
6 recognise anyone in that photograph?
7 A. I think I recognise one person.
8 Q. Sorry, I did not hear you?
9 A. I think I recognise one person here, who ...
10 Q. Who is that?
11 A. Brigid Bond's son, Freddy.
12 Q. Would you like to mark the screen and point
13 him out?
14 A. (Marked with blue arrow).
15 Q. That is the person with the grey jacket?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Could I have control of the screen, please?
18 Do you know who this person is? (Marked with yellow
19 arrow).
20 A. That is Kevin McCorry.
21 Q. You do not see yourself in that photograph at
22 all, do you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When you arrived at the barrier and there was
25 a small riot, what were the soldiers doing?
1 A. The soldiers were standing behind the barrier
2 which was across William Street and there was sort of
3 a buffer zone between the soldiers and the crowd.
4 Q. Was that buffer zone the stewards?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. If we could go back to your page AM427.3,
7 highlighting paragraphs 11 to 14, please, you have told
8 us, I think initially when you arrived, if my recall is
9 right, that the soldiers were not actually doing
10 anything in response to the shouting and the
11 stone-throwing; is that right?
12 A. That would be correct.
13 Q. Then they did start, as you say in paragraph
14 12, firing rubber bullets?
15 A. Rubber bullets or gas.
16 Q. You say at 13 that shortly after you arrived
17 the army brought in water cannon with dye in the
18 water. Was it at this point that the stewards left the
19 scene?
20 A. I think when the water cannon was actually
21 put into use, and that included me personally, I had no
22 desire to get soaked, it sorta just neutralised the
23 situation, people just filtered away after that.
24 Q. Just before the water cannon came on to the
25 scene, how many people were there at the barrier, how
1 many civilians were there at the barrier?
2 A. I would say round about 100 to 150 again.
3 Q. After the water cannon had been used, how
4 many were left?
5 A. Well, I think most people, including meself,
6 had just decided to go back to Free Derry Corner, you
7 know, it just dispersed the crowd, basically, you know.
8 Q. As you say, you made the decision to go back
9 to Free Derry Corner. If we could pick up paragraph 15
10 and 16, you say there that you turned into
11 Rossville Street and you got as far as the start of the
12 wasteground, which you mark as point B on your map, and
13 then you heard a commotion behind you, the revving of
14 engines, and you looked back to see a number of army
15 vehicles driving very quickly towards you and you
16 noticed a Pig at the front of the line of vehicles.
17 You began to run and the rest of the crowd
18 also began to run at the same time?
19 A. Yeah, yeah, very quickly running, yeah.
20 Q. How big was the crowd at the time?
21 A. When I came into Rossville Street I assume it
22 was the tail end of the march, or people were mostly on
23 looking. There would have been a few hundred people
24 running into the Bogside area.
25 Q. If we could just move over to AM427.4, you
1 say there in paragraph 16, which continues that:
2 "The first Pig seemed to stop and I heard
3 the screech of the metal as the back doors flew open
4 and a number of soldiers jump out."
5 In the next couple of paragraphs you discuss
6 both where the army vehicles went and what the soldiers
7 did. If we can first of all take what happened to the
8 vehicles and deal with that. If we could actually
9 highlight the top of the page, including paragraph 18.
10 What you say, Mr Morrison is:
11 "That first Pig seemed to stop and soldiers
12 jumped out."
13 In paragraph 18 you also mention that you saw
14 another vehicle, "which I believe was a jeep". Are you
15 sure that it was a jeep?
16 A. Again, with the passage of time I am not
17 100 per cent sure. Throughout all of this I have tried
18 to keep away from watching the TV footage to let it
19 influence me, and that is the difficulty that I have,
20 I did not want to be influenced just by any footage
21 that I had seen.
22 Q. Perhaps I could try and shorten things by
23 asking you this: in terms of where the army vehicles
24 turned up, are you certain in your recollection?
25 A. Could you repeat that again, please?
1 Q. Let us go to your map, AM427.13. If I could
2 have control of the screen, please. You have marked on
3 this map point B, which was the point at which you had
4 arrived in Rossville Street when you heard the revving
5 of engines. Point C is when you reached -- it is in
6 the area of Eden Place. That is when the first Pig
7 reached you and you ran off across the wasteground.
8 You say in relation to that Pig that it seemed to stop
9 and you heard the screech of the metal as the back
10 doors flew open.
11 Where did it stop?
12 A. Can I actually touch the screen?
13 Q. Yes, please.
14 A. I would say it stopped round about here
15 because I was running at the time, I was running in
16 tandem with it, but I was going at an angle.
17 (Indicating).
18 Q. If we could remove my arrows that I have
19 marked and if Mr Morrison could have control, if you
20 could mark where you say that first vehicle ended up?
21 A. (Marked with mauve arrow).
22 Q. If we take the second vehicle that you
23 mention, that was the jeep or a vehicle you believe was
24 a jeep, which you have marked on the map as being at
25 point D. What I want to ask you is whether, given the
1 passage of time, you are certain about where these
2 vehicles ended up?
3 A. Yeah, in that general area there.
4 (Indicating).
5 Q. The reason I ask is because we have had quite
6 a lot of evidence and we have some photographs which
7 show where the army vehicles were and the evidence is
8 that in the line of vehicles there were two Pigs at the
9 start and the first one, if I could show you a
10 photograph. If I could have control of that screen,
11 the first one turned off Pilot Row. That ended up
12 somewhere around here. The Pig behind that ended up
13 just at the mouth or just into the Rossville Flats car
14 park. You did not see any army vehicles there, did
15 you? (Marked with turquoise, blue and yellow arrows).
16 A. I have seen footage of army vehicles here in
17 the blue section, the light blue section.
18 Q. That does not accord with your recollection?
19 A. When the army vehicles came, I ran into the
20 back of the sector flats and kept looking back as they
21 were coming and my recollection was, yes, the light
22 blue area, the vehicle did end up eventually there,
23 because I was behind the flats at that stage.
24 Q. Where I have marked with a sort of turquoise
25 arrow your recollection now is that one of the army
1 vehicles could have ended up there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Perhaps I can shorten it by showing you one
4 photograph, if we could have P281. Mr Morrison, if you
5 see the first Pig there, that is the one that was in
6 the car park of the Rossville Flats and just behind --
7 it is a little difficult to work it out on this
8 photograph, there is the second Pig that was at the
9 Eden Place/Chamberlain Street junction.
10 Can we turn back to your page AM427.4, and go
11 back now to what the soldiers were actually doing.
12 Again, if we could have highlighted the top half down
13 to paragraph 19, please. That first Pig that you saw,
14 you say in that top paragraph that you are sure that at
15 least two soldiers jumped out; is that right?
16 A. Yes, yes, that is right.
17 Q. You go on to say that "the soldiers were
18 panning out all over the place"; are you referring to
19 soldiers from other army vehicles?
20 A. Trying to get my thoughts back to the day,
21 I can recall soldiers panning out, but I would not be
22 too sure if it was from this exact vehicle.
23 Q. So it could have been from other vehicles?
24 A. It could have been, yeah.
25 Q. These soldiers who were panning out, what
1 were they trying to do?
2 A. I noticed that they were in the firing
3 position, they were taking up firing positions.
4 Q. Did you see any soldiers who seemed to be
5 trying to arrest people?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you conscious of any soldiers firing
8 rubber bullets?
9 A. No.
10 Q. If we go back to the two soldiers that you
11 were sure jumped out of that first Pig, in reference to
12 the first one, you say:
13 "I focused on one in particular. This
14 soldier moved to the east side of the Pig. He dropped
15 down on one knee and took up a full firing position,
16 aiming his rifle south along Rossville Street. I am
17 not sure whether he was aiming at the rubble barricade
18 which ran across Rossville Street between
19 Glenfada Park North and block 1 of the Rossville Flats,
20 or actually into the Rossville Flats car park."
21 You then mention another soldier was standing
22 with his gun to his shoulder. You are sure that
23 soldier who was on one knee and in the firing position
24 was aiming in that direction?
25 A. Yes, I got the impression that he was
1 sighting that direction, yeah.
2 Q. Although you were running in the direction of
3 the car park at this time, were there still people,
4 ordinary people on the wasteground running behind you?
5 A. Oh, there would have been people behind me,
6 yeah.
7 Q. The other soldier standing with his gun to
8 his shoulder, where was he?
9 A. From my recollection I clearly seen the man
10 to the left of the vehicle and I would not be exactly
11 sure if the other soldier joined him or he was looking
12 round the other side of the vehicle.
13 Q. That other soldier was also by that first
14 Pig?
15 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16 Q. He was standing with his gun to his shoulder?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. What kind of gun are you referring to?
19 A. It was the army issue at that time, I think
20 they were called SLRs.
21 Q. It was not a rubber bullet gun?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. You go on in paragraph 17 to talk about the
24 first live shot that you heard that day, and you say
25 you saw the first soldier, the one on his knee, take up
1 his firing position and as the shot rang out, you heard
2 a cracking noise and saw the soldier's rifle kick back
3 and knew it was him who fired the shot.
4 Can we be clear, you looked back and you saw
5 that soldier's rifle jerk?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Was it aimed above the heads of the crowd?
8 A. Um, from his position I could not say if he
9 was aiming up or down, but he was in the general
10 direction of the sight of his rifle, if you take my
11 point.
12 Q. You did not actually see anybody fall at that
13 time?
14 A. No, no, no, I went to the back of the flats.
15 Q. It was fired at the fleeing crowd and with
16 other soldiers panning out?
17 A. In the general direction of the crowd.
18 Q. You go on in paragraph 19 to say that as you
19 ran towards the car park and the first shot rang out,
20 people threw themselves on the ground and others dived
21 for cover, but after that first shot the shooting
22 seemed to be continuous. That continuous shooting,
23 when it started, had you already reached the car park?
24 A. I first went to the opening between the
25 sector flats to the left, which would be to the, the
1 Derry wall side.
2 Q. Had you already actually got into the car
3 park when that continuous shooting started?
4 A. I was running very quickly, yes.
5 Q. How many shots did you hear?
6 A. It just appeared to me to be continuous and
7 I was concentrating on getting through the flats to
8 safety on the other side.
9 Q. You go on in your statement -- we will get to
10 it in a moment -- to say where you went whilst in the
11 car park and how you got out of the car park, but did
12 the firing continue all the time you were in the
13 Rossville Flats car park?
14 A. Yeah, I heard continuous shooting, yes.
15 Q. You say:
16 "All the shots I could hear were being fired
17 from behind me to the north, in the area of the
18 Rossville Street and the wasteground. All the shooting
19 I heard was SLR army fire and having lived in Derry
20 throughout that time I was fully able to pick out the
21 sounds which the different weapons made."
22 So, the shooting is coming from behind you,
23 were you able to tell how far away the shooting was?
24 A. I knew it was in the general direction where
25 the vehicles were and on the Rossville Street area,
1 around there, I could tell.
2 MR RAWAT: If we could highlight paragraphs
3 20 and 21 --
4 MR TOOHEY: Just before you do, Mr Rawat,
5 could I ask you, Mr Morrison, you have just answered
6 some questions about the firing that you heard. I am
7 not clear where you were at that point: were you still
8 in Rossville Street?
9 A. No, I was in behind the flats, running.
10 MR TOOHEY: When you say "behind", in the
11 courtyard side?
12 A. Yeah, inside the courtyard and running.
13 MR TOOHEY: You entered the courtyard and you
14 were running; in which direction?
15 A. I was running to the left-hand side, there
16 was a big opening there to escape, to get on the other
17 side of the flats.
18 MR TOOHEY: Would you mind clarifying
19 "left-hand side" by reference to the map, please?
20 MR RAWAT: Perhaps we could try and do it
21 with a photograph. Before we do that, you describe in
22 these two paragraphs the route you took. You say you
23 decided to make your way towards the biggest gap, the
24 one between blocks 2 and 3. Then in paragraph 21, when
25 you reached that gap, it was full of people and so you
1 started crawling to a small wall in the flats car park,
2 which ran parallel to block 2 and started to move
3 towards the gap between blocks 1 and 2. Keeping that
4 in mind, could we have P205 on the screen, please.
5 That is the Rossville Street car park. If
6 I could have control. There is the gap between blocks
7 2 and 3; there is the gap between 1 and 2 and there is
8 a small wall running parallel to block 2. If we could
9 now remove those arrows and if Mr Morrison could be
10 given control.
11 Mr Morrison, remembering you have told us you
12 heard a first shot and that was, if I remember rightly,
13 before you actually reached the car park?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. You then heard a continuous set of shots.
16 Can you mark on that photograph where you were when you
17 heard those shots, those continuous shots?
18 A. I would have been in this area running
19 towards here. (Indicating).
20 Q. As you say, am I right in then thinking that
21 finding you could not get through blocks 2 and 3, that
22 was the small wall that you crawled behind?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If we could go back to AM427.4, in paragraph
25 21, you say that you saw Bishop Daly crouching down
1 somewhere in the middle of the car park "although I do
2 not remember exactly what he was doing". Your
3 recollection, you cannot help with whether Bishop Daly
4 was with anybody at that time?
5 A. No, there was a lot of people -- when I got
6 to the first opening of block 2, there was so many
7 people, it was like a corkscrew, everybody had just
8 stopped and it would have been in -- behind the flats
9 or quite a lot of time, because I was afraid to get out
10 or to get up. So I would have been there for, not
11 exactly long, but I am sure it was quite a time, in
12 that area.
13 Q. You say at the tail end of that paragraph:
14 "I think I also saw Mickey Bridge."
15 Was that in the car park itself?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Perhaps if I quickly show you a photograph,
18 P518. The figure on the left-hand side of the screen
19 is Mr Bridge; would that have been the kind of area you
20 would have seen him in?
21 A. It would have been further in towards the
22 flats and there would have been other people around
23 when I seen Mickey Bridge, yes.
24 Q. When you say further in towards the flats?
25 A. Closer.
1 Q. Closer to the block 1?
2 A. To the wall area, yeah.
3 Q. To block 1 that we see on the screen?
4 A. No, the central block.
5 Q. Block 2, closer to where you were?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. If we could go back again to 427.5, highlight
8 the top part, including paragraph 22. You say:
9 "My main attention was focused on the
10 soldiers who were by now standing at the northern
11 entrance to the car park with their guns raised and
12 I saw the kick-back impact of firing."
13 You actually saw soldiers at the car park
14 entrance firing?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. You then say in paragraph 22:
17 "A number of people on the balconies of the
18 three blocks of flats shouting down ..."
19 Did you see anything being thrown from the
20 balconies?
21 A. No.
22 Q. No bottles, no stones?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If we go back now to P205, when you saw the
25 soldiers at the northern end of the car park you would
1 have been behind the small wall?
2 A. I would have been in that general area.
3 Q. Would you like to mark on this screen, if you
4 are given control, where those soldiers were?
5 A. It would have been around this area. (Marked
6 with blue arrow).
7 Q. Can you recall how many soldiers there were?
8 A. Not specifically, numberwise. I am sure that
9 there was three or four perhaps, but I could not be
10 100 per cent.
11 Q. And you cannot say where they were
12 distributed?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So, the blue arrow that you have marked
15 simply shows --
16 A. The general area.
17 Q. -- the general area, so that is really just
18 three or four soldiers at the mouth of the car park; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes, that is correct, sorry.
21 Q. I do not think there is any need to save
22 that. If we go back to AM427.5, paragraph 23 down to
23 the bottom, please. What happened then was that you
24 say you managed to get through the gap between blocks 2
25 and 3; did you mean blocks 2 and 3 or blocks 1 and 2?
1 A. To the original block that I tried to get
2 through.
3 Q. So you went back on yourself and got out
4 through that way?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. What you then did was ran south to
7 a passageway which runs along the eastern side of
8 Joseph Place?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. There were quite a lot of people in that
11 passageway. Were they all trying to move south up
12 towards Free Derry Corner, along the passageway?
13 A. Yeah, and a lot of people were crouching and
14 staying there, they were not moving on.
15 Q. You say there that people told you to keep
16 down because there was shooting coming from the walls?
17 A. Yeah, some people were saying that, yeah.
18 Q. You then made your way along that passageway,
19 did you not?
20 A. Yeah, and I stayed there for some time as
21 well.
22 Q. How long did you stay there?
23 A. I cannot be specific, but until I felt
24 reasonably safe to move.
25 Q. Did you feel safe when all the shooting had
1 stopped?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes.
3 Q. In the time you were in that passageway
4 crouching, did you yourself hear any shots that
5 appeared to come from the city walls?
6 A. No.
7 Q. To finish off, what you did was then exit
8 between the two blocks of Joseph Place and make your
9 way to Brigid Bond's house?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. If I could now go back to paragraph 5 of this
12 statement, which is an AM427.1, what you say in that
13 paragraph was that subsequently to this, to
14 Bloody Sunday, you were active in collecting witness
15 statements from people who had been on the march. We
16 have a number of statements in the bundle of papers
17 distributed to the parties which show that you
18 witnessed a number of statements.
19 We also have had quite a bit of evidence
20 about how those statements were taken. Would it be
21 right to say that Brigid Bond was the main organiser
22 between the taking of statements?
23 A. Yes, that would be correct.
24 Q. Was it Derry CRA that really did all the
25 work?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was NICRA involved at all?
3 A. Um, I remember Brigid giving instructions to
4 go down and take the statements of the people coming in
5 and they were, they were for collection by NICRA and
6 the NCCL to eventually get all the statements, that is
7 what I was told.
8 Q. I wanted to deal with one of the statements
9 that you took, which is that of a Mr Meehan. If we
10 could have on the screen side by side, pages AM389.4
11 and then AM389.6. What we have there is on one side
12 the handwritten version of Mr Meehan's statement, which
13 we see at the bottom says:
14 "Witness: Charles Morrison"; is that your
15 signature?
16 A. It is, yes.
17 Q. But the handwriting that forms the body of
18 that statement, is that your handwriting?
19 A. It is, yes -- no, no, it is not, it is not,
20 no.
21 Q. Can you help us with how this statement would
22 have been taken?
23 A. I write to a similar fashion of this, as what
24 is on the screen. What happened: people came in to the
25 room and they sat down and whatever the people said
1 I would have taken down. I would not have been an
2 experienced statement-writer, I must admit, at that
3 time, but I would just have taken down what the people
4 said to me.
5 Q. In that case what seems to have happened is
6 that somebody else wrote it and you simply witnessed
7 it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So were there some statements that you
10 witnessed where the witness themselves wrote out their
11 recollection of the events of the day?
12 A. My recollection at the time, that I would
13 have written most of the statements coming in that were
14 taken.
15 Q. The reason I have shown you this,
16 Mr Morrison, was out of fairness, because Mr Meehan has
17 come along and given evidence to the Inquiry. For the
18 transcript, it was on Day 77. He disputed the contents
19 of his statement which you had witnessed, and in
20 particular what he disputed was the first part of it,
21 where it says that he was in the car park before they
22 moved in and the soldiers jumped out and opened fire
23 for no particular reason. He said he had not said
24 anything of the sort. I wanted to give you a chance to
25 comment on that particular aspect of this statement?
1 A. If it appeared in the statement, Mr Meehan
2 had written the statement and I had witnessed it.
3 Q. Were you, as a statement-taker, ever given
4 instructions to leave anything out?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. Sir, I understand that the supplementary
7 statement has now been distributed. I hope my learned
8 friends have had a chance to read through it. What
9 I really want to do is simply go back to the Derry
10 CRA. I can deal with that, I hope, very quickly. Can
11 we have on the screen GEN5.22.2.
12 If I can explain, Mr Morrison: what this is
13 is a page from a magazine or pamphlet called "New
14 Reality", which was the organ of the Derry Civil Rights
15 Association. This pamphlet is dated 25th September
16 1971. The only reason I have put it up on the screen
17 is because it gives the officer board of Derry CRA. We
18 have confirmed most of the individuals who were on the
19 committee of Derry CRA. I want to read out a portion
20 of it to you. It is not legible on the screen, so --
21 the sentence which begins:
22 "Today the fight continues with the release
23 of the internees and the abolition of the Special
24 Powers Act and today's Committee of Chairman Mr Gerry
25 Doherty ..."
1 Do you remember Mr Doherty at all?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. That was Gerry "The Bird" Doherty, was it
4 not?
5 A. They called him "Gerry the Bird", yeah.
6 Q. "Vice Chairman, Mr Johnny Bond; secretary,
7 Mrs Brigid Bond."
8 Do you remember Mr Bond as Chairman?
9 A. Johnny Bond, yes.
10 Q. At the time of Bloody Sunday was he the
11 Chairman?
12 A. I would assume so. I have no definite
13 recollection of times and meetings and things like
14 that.
15 Q. The secretary is there listed as Mrs Brigid
16 Bond. But then it also says the "Treasurer, Mr C
17 Morrison", we take that to be you; were you the
18 treasurer?
19 A. I would have been, yeah.
20 Q. Were you still the treasurer at the time of
21 Bloody Sunday?
22 A. I cannot definitely say that, I do not know.
23 Q. Finally, if I could have GEN5.7 and 5.8 on
24 the screen side by side. What you have on the screen
25 in front of you, Mr Morrison, is a document which is
1 actually a NICRA document. It is from the Vice
2 Chairman of NICRA to the NICRA organiser and it is
3 dated 1st December 1969. Why it is of interest is
4 because it gives a list of new membership applications
5 from the Derry area. It mentions Gerry O'Doherty as
6 "the moving spirit in Derry".
7 Although we know who was on the committee at
8 the time of Bloody Sunday, it would be helpful to know
9 how many people were actually just ordinary members of
10 Derry CRA. Before we go through this document, do you
11 have any recollection of how many people there were who
12 were just ordinary members?
13 A. No, I would have no specific numbers in my
14 head. I find it really hard to remember how many
15 ordinary members there were.
16 Q. Looking at the document, bearing in mind it
17 is 1969, are there any names there of people who were
18 still involved in Derry CRA at the time of
19 Bloody Sunday?
20 A. (Pause). I think the name Tony O'Doherty
21 means something to me.
22 Q. As someone who might have been involved?
23 A. Who might have been a steward on
24 Bloody Sunday.
25 Q. A steward on the march itself?
1 A. And McMenamin, 13 Milroy Gardens. I am not
2 sure it is Mr McMenamin or his wife Suzy.
3 Q. It looks as though Suzy has been scratched
4 out, I think "Mrs" may have been written in manuscript?
5 A. Yeah, Suzy, yeah.
6 Q. Was she a steward on the march?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was her husband a steward on the march?
9 A. I think he may have been, I think he may have
10 been.
11 Q. To try and summarise it, the two names that
12 you recollect from this document are Tony O'Doherty and
13 then a Mr McMenamin, and the reason you recall them is
14 because they might have been stewards on the march?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Thank you, those are all the questions
17 I have.
18 Questioned by MR KENNEDY
19 MR KENNEDY: Mr Morrison, my name is Kennedy
20 and I represent Michael Bridge and Michael Bradley.
21 You have indicated to the Tribunal that you were
22 involved in NICRA from about October 1968. You have
23 indicated also that at an early stage when you were at
24 a NICRA meeting in Belfast you were arrested and
25 detained for that day; is that right?
1 A. What happened, I remember I had driven Brigid
2 up to the meeting and after it we went to Ann Hope's
3 house for a cup of tea and the house was raided and we
4 were taken to a police station or barracks.
5 Q. Were you told why you were arrested?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever find out why you were arrested
8 on that occasion?
9 A. (Inaudible).
10 Q. Between 1968 and Bloody Sunday, would you
11 have attended many marches with NICRA or on behalf of
12 NICRA?
13 A. Most marches in the city, I would have went
14 along, yeah.
15 Q. Can you give us an estimate of how many or
16 how often?
17 A. No. I can tell you that most marches in the
18 city I would have went to.
19 Q. Was there a march every week or a march every
20 month; how regular were they?
21 A. There would have been a lot sorta street
22 corner meetings and things like that which were not
23 marches I would have attended, but I just do not have
24 the figures of marches or --
25 Q. But they were regular marches?
1 A. I was interested in what was going on and
2 I would have went and listened to the people who were
3 speaking.
4 Q. You have indicated in paragraph 3 that in
5 1969 there was a change and a new generation of
6 Catholics who were more interested, with a strong
7 desire for justice and demanding their basic civil
8 rights. Did that mean a change in direction at that
9 time, did you feel?
10 A. It was the general feeling of the younger
11 people that, you know, they wanted a better life and
12 they just were not going to take discrimination any
13 more. They wanted house, they wanted jobs.
14 Q. Did they become in any way more aggressive?
15 A. Aggressive in the sense that they wanted to
16 protest.
17 Q. Did they condone violence in any way with
18 that increase in aggression?
19 A. Obviously there were a number of young people
20 who would have got involved in stone-throwing, but as
21 regards people like myself and close friends we were
22 just totally opposed to violence, we did not see any
23 purpose for it.
24 Q. So the movement remained opposed to violence?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. In paragraph 5 you refer to the armband, and
2 you were concerned it would make you a target; had you
3 any grounds for that belief, did you believe as a NICRA
4 steward you would be singled out as a target?
5 A. Well, when you are wearing something so
6 significant you would obviously stand out in a crowd
7 and I was getting concerned for my own safety, so
8 I took it off.
9 Q. In all those marches and meetings you
10 attended up until Bloody Sunday, did you ever come
11 across on any occasion gunmen using the civilians as
12 cover for firing at the army or the Security Forces?
13 A. No.
14 Questioned by MR COYLE
15 MR COYLE: Mr Morrison, my name is Coyle,
16 I appear for the family of Bernard McGuigan. I have
17 three matters I want to ask you about. Could I have on
18 the screen, please, EP27.9. Mr Morrison, if I could
19 orientate you to what that photograph is of. It is
20 looking up Rossville Street, northwards towards
21 William Street and across into the mouth of
22 Sackville Street. Are you orientated as to what it
23 shows?
24 A. Yes, it is showing army vehicles.
25 Q. Could I have control of the screen, please?
1 What I want to direct your attention towards is the
2 army vehicles and particularly at the tip of the arrow
3 which I have drawn there appears to be a soldier
4 kneeling. (Indicating).
5 In your answers to my learned friend
6 Mr Rawat, you indicated the soldier de-bussed from the
7 armoured vehicle and went down on his knee as you were
8 moving away. Was that the position of the soldier who
9 went down on his knee?
10 A. It would have been in the general area, yeah,
11 in this general area.
12 Q. The second matter I want to ask you about --
13 it really is for the sake of completeness, I think --
14 Mr Rawat asked you were there any bombs or anything of
15 any nature thrown from the Rossville Flats, any
16 bottles, and you said no to that. In consequence, did
17 you see any acid bombs thrown from the Rossville Flats?
18 A. No.
19 Q. The third and last matter I want to ask you:
20 did you see anything that any of the civilians were
21 doing that justified the use of lethal force by the
22 army?
23 A. I seen absolutely no civilians in any
24 aggressive mode, physically or otherwise.
25 Questioned by MR O'HANLON
1 MR O'HANLON: My name is Paddy O'Hanlon,
2 I represent the Northern Ireland Civil Rights
3 Association. There is one matter I would like to ask
4 you about that you might be able to assist the Tribunal
5 further on. Could we have AM427.8 up on the screen.
6 This particular paragraph, Mr Morrison,
7 paragraph 10, deals with the situation at the bottom of
8 William Street when you had first heard that there was
9 a difficulty at the lower end of William Street. Do
10 you recollect that situation?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 MR O'HANLON: You indicate in the paragraph
13 itself you decided to make your way down to the
14 barrier. Was that of your own initiative or had you
15 received some communication.
16 LORD SAVILLE: I thought, Mr O'Hanlon,
17 Mr Morrison already told us it was as a result of what
18 Ken McCorry said, or did I misunderstand you?
19 A. Yes, Kevin McCorry was in the area calling
20 for stewards to come.
21 MR O'HANLON: The point I was really making,
22 did McCorry come up the line to say that or did you
23 just hear a loudhailer in the distance?
24 A. I actually seen him to my left, coming up the
25 line.
1 Q. Did you accompany him back towards the bottom
2 of William Street?
3 A. I followed him down, yeah.
4 Q. Did you go down at the same time or were you
5 behind him?
6 A. Behind him.
7 Q. Could I have on the screen EP4, 16.001,
8 please. There actually is a photograph without names
9 on it but this is sufficient. Is there anybody in that
10 photograph you recognise?
11 A. I think in the centre that again may be
12 Freddy Bond.
13 Q. Do you see Kevin McCorry in the photograph?
14 A. Yes, I do, with his back just here.
15 (Indicating).
16 Q. When you arrived at that location, which is
17 at the junction of William Street, Chamberlain Street,
18 just back from the barrier; what was happening?
19 A. There was sort of a stand-off, a situation,
20 and there was a buffer zone between the stewards and
21 the army barrier on the screen.
22 Q. At the forefront?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I would like to show you one other photograph
25 and then I would like to ask you a question. Could we
1 have EP4.17.001. You indicated that there was a line
2 of stewards at that location. That is also short of
3 the barrier, if I can put it in that regard. Now,
4 there has been a lot of evidence in relation to
5 stewards at the barrier itself. Do you recall stewards
6 at the barrier itself?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. There is no evidence as to what happened in
9 the intermediate stage, if you follow me, Mr Morrison.
10 How did the crowd and the stewards get to the situation
11 short of the barrier as they are there, to the barrier;
12 do you recollect anything happening?
13 A. Well, I knew -- there was a lot of
14 stone-throwing had taken place, um, and there may have
15 been a bit of pressure from the crowd, you know.
16 Q. Is that a clear recollection, or is it a
17 supposition afterwards; do you think it was pressure
18 from the crowd forced them down the street?
19 A. I cannot be 100 per cent sure, because I was
20 sited just round the corner there at the Lion Bar,
21 I was somewhat back -- I was not at this interface,
22 I was behind.
23 Q. You recall the stewards at the barrier. Were
24 the stewards at the barrier when the water cannon came
25 in, in your recollection?
1 A. Yes, they were holding a line, yeah.
2 Q. And stones were still being thrown at that
3 stage?
4 A. Yeah, over.
5 Q. Where were they being thrown from?
6 A. From behind, from about Quinn's fish shop
7 there and the corner of Chamberlain Street.
8 Q. Would it be fair to say, what you are saying
9 is they were coming behind the stewards and behind the
10 front row of marchers?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. In the circumstances, when the water cannon
13 came in you have indicated that the street cleared and
14 you returned to the Rossville Street area; is that
15 correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 MR O'HANLON: Thank you.
18 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
19 MR GLASGOW: Mr Morrison, my name is Glasgow,
20 I represent many of the soldiers, I have a very few
21 questions for you on the statements that were taken
22 from you, but I should say that, as the Chairman says,
23 of course we have read the statement you wrote yourself
24 and I understand and accept, and I do not wish you to
25 think, or anyone else, that in the questions I am
1 asking I am ignoring that, indeed I accept that you are
2 clearly a man who has been committed to a peaceful
3 solution to these problems, and I am not implying
4 anything to the contrary, but I do not have any
5 questions on that statement.
6 Could you help the Inquiry a little bit more,
7 please, first of all on the build-up to Bloody Sunday.
8 If you want to go back to your statement, of course
9 I will take you. I think you may be able to help me
10 without us going to the documents again.
11 You have a recollection of Mrs Bond telling
12 you of assurances she had received from whoever it was
13 that she was able to talk to who could assure her about
14 paramilitary activity on Bloody Sunday; that is what it
15 boils down to?
16 A. Yes, I have heard the comment, yeah.
17 Q. And you were satisfied, particularly coming
18 from her, the lady that she was, that that was
19 a sensible assurance that she had been given?
20 A. Yes, I would not have had any part of the
21 march if I had thought there was going to be any
22 violence.
23 Q. That is why I accepted what I said about your
24 statement. I wholly accept that. Had you yourself
25 been interested to know that, did you want to have that
1 reassurance personally yourself, or was that something
2 she wanted?
3 A. I never thought about it until I heard the
4 comment said, it did not cross my mind.
5 Q. Could I ask you what you say about the
6 supplementary statement which we were just given. If
7 you would like to look at this, I think you should have
8 it on the screen, AM427.15. You tried to recall,
9 I think at paragraph 2, the names of the members of the
10 committee, do you remember, at paragraph 2?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. My learned friend Mr Rawat, who asked you
13 questions right at the start, showed you some documents
14 with other names on them?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you tried to recall who was on the
17 committee, did you have the documents in front of you
18 or was that just you trying to recall from memory?
19 A. These particular ones on the screen?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. That is from memory.
22 Q. Later on in this statement it is apparent
23 that you were asked about a whole series of names of
24 people generally involved?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Again to take it shortly, we heard on your
2 own list, three lines from the bottom, Mavis Sheerin,
3 who became Mavis Hyde, did she not?
4 A. So I understand. I have not seen her in many
5 years.
6 Q. She was very good and came yesterday, despite
7 her condition, and gave the Tribunal help as to who
8 they were. She was, I think, the secretary and took
9 the minutes of the meetings, was that right?
10 A. I understand that was correct.
11 Q. You say you understand that, I am not being
12 critical, I think you yourself did not go to any of the
13 meetings?
14 A. I was in full-time employment. As
15 I explained earlier, there was a lot of activity in
16 Brigid's house all day long.
17 Q. Did you ever actually attend many of the
18 committee meetings yourself?
19 A. Not to any great -- not to the level, for
20 example, Michael Havord or people like that, no.
21 Q. Or indeed Mrs Hyde?
22 A. She would have been there.
23 Q. Would it be right that her recollection of
24 memberships of the committee and that kind of thing is
25 likely to be more accurate than yours?
1 A. No, I would not -- I was in the house daily,
2 that would have been later in the afternoon, but
3 I would not just --
4 Q. Can I look at the list that you put in your
5 paragraph 2 because there were names that you included,
6 for example: Laura Glenn. You recall that Laura Glenn
7 was a member of the committee?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That was a name that I do not think came up
10 yesterday. Ms Hyde gave us some other names from the
11 document that was shown to her. For the record it is
12 the GEN5.7. I do not ask for it because it is the one
13 you looked at with my learned friend in the two
14 halves. The other names she picked out, just yes or
15 no: Norman Walmsley, she thought he was on the
16 committee?
17 A. Norman Walmsley would have been a man who was
18 around while in the house.
19 Q. Gerry Doherty, I think you said to my friend
20 you overlooked his name in this list, he was a
21 prominent personality?
22 A. Gerry Doherty, yes.
23 Q. Eamonn Melaugh?
24 A. Eamonn Melaugh I do not recall being around
25 Brigid's house too often.
1 Q. Len Green?
2 A. No, definitely while -- I never met Len
3 Green.
4 Q. I was not suggesting whether they were around
5 the house or not, these were names she said were on the
6 committee; whether they attended or not I do not know?
7 A. I do not recall Len Green.
8 Q. Do you remember Reg Tester?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You do not remember him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. The last matter, Mr Morrison, again in
13 fairness to you, on the question of taking of
14 statements: did you, in your recollection always take
15 statements in the same way?
16 A. Yes, whatever people said, I just put down.
17 Q. Your recollection is that usually you would
18 write it down while they spoke?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember ever taking multiple
21 statements, more than one person at a time?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You have no recollection of that at all?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I wonder, would you mind, please, looking at
1 a statement which was produced by two witnesses earlier
2 to the Tribunal. I think its best form is in the
3 manuscript at AO55.10, although I confess that is a
4 memory, I hope it is right. I know there is a typed
5 version, 55.8. This is the second part of it.
6 Mr Morrison, is it your writing -- I do not
7 think it is your signature?
8 A. That is my writing, yes.
9 Q. Your writing is at the top?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At the bottom where it says "witnessed by
12 Charlie Morrison", that is your writing as well?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember anything about this? There
15 is no trick in this, Mr O'Loughlin and Mr McMenamin
16 told the Tribunal that they believed the statement had
17 been made together. One of them actually believed he
18 had written it down, or written some of it down, and
19 the other one had agreed with what was written. Do you
20 have any recollection of taking a statement in that
21 way?
22 A. That is my recollection, there could have
23 been two people in the room. When you said multiple
24 people, I thought you meant five or six people in the
25 room.
1 Q. If that was the case that would be unique, it
2 was the only double statement, if I can put it in that
3 shorthand?
4 A. I would say that is probably correct, again
5 I do not know.
6 Q. The last matter, very shortly, is simply your
7 recollections of what you saw on Bloody Sunday. So you
8 have them in front of you, if we go to the fourth page
9 of your statement which we have at AM427.4, so that you
10 can refresh your memory, the middle paragraphs 17 to 19
11 inclusive, of you seeing the shooting as you recall
12 from the Pig to the north of the wasteground and then
13 you see a Pig at the entrance to the car park and later
14 on some soldiers at the northern end -- towards the
15 entrance, as my learned friend put it very fairly, the
16 mouth of the car park; do you remember that?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR GLASGOW: I wanted you to have the
19 opportunity of dealing with a statement that we have
20 been given which was said to relate to you, which we
21 have at AM427.14. While it comes up on the screen,
22 I can help you to this extent: Mr Morrison, we
23 understand that this would be a typed-up version of a
24 note made by a newspaper journalist by the Sunday
25 Times. Do you have any recollection at all --
1 MR RAWAT: Sorry to interrupt, it is actually
2 a note from a Praxis interview and we think it is Tony
3 Stark who is the reporter.
4 MR GLASGOW: Sorry, I have done that before.
5 It is the journalist, the television journalist from a
6 company called Praxis. Do you remember talking to
7 anybody like that at all?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could we have a quick look at it, in that
10 case. It has your name at the top, "Civil rights
11 activist involved in organising the march". That would
12 seem to be right, would it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What it says is:
15 "Saw soldiers firing towards the barricade
16 from the gable end of block 1 of the Rossville Flats."
17 So that you can deal with it together, in the
18 third paragraph, the last sentence, it repeats that:
19 "... Block 1, and was firing on one knee
20 towards the barricade."
21 If it does relate to a conversation with you,
22 can you recall some years ago telling anybody that that
23 was your recollection of what you had seen?
24 A. I do not recall this document.
25 Q. You do not recall it at all?
1 A. I was quite surprised when I seen it in the
2 papers.
3 Q. You have had the opportunity of looking at
4 that before, I am not taking you totally by surprise?
5 A. No, it was included and I thought it was just
6 an assessment from someone here.
7 Q. It did not ring any bells at all?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Might I, out of sequence, take you back to
10 the meetings that you did attend of the Derry CRA, as
11 I think you all called it, the NICRA branch, the Derry
12 branch of NICRA: did you ever have any minutes of those
13 meetings yourself?
14 A. I did not have any minutes of these meetings,
15 they were to be kept in Brigid Bond's house.
16 Q. There was only the one set?
17 A. I understand that to be correct.
18 Questioned by MR ELIAS
19 MR ELIAS: Mr Morrison, could we look again
20 at AM427.14? Appreciating what you say about the
21 document, about having no recollection of the
22 conversation, could I take you to paragraph 2. What is
23 said is:
24 "He did not witness anything of great
25 consequence. He definitely saw soldiers shooting as he
1 ran to get between the gap between the
2 Rossville Flats."
3 You did, as you have told us:
4 "He remembers seeing the guns jerk upwards as
5 the soldiers fired. One soldier was standing at the
6 gable end of block one and was firing on one knee
7 toward the barricade."
8 Do you in fact have any recollection of
9 seeing that?
10 A. I do not have any recollection of a soldier
11 standing at a gable end.
12 Q. You do not have any recollection now of any
13 soldier standing at the gable end?
14 A. No, I do not have any recollection of that
15 incident.
16 Q. Can I be clear about this: as you came down
17 Rossville Street and you were aware of the revving of
18 engines, the crowd started to run and you started to
19 run with them?
20 A. I did, yeah.
21 Q. You veered off to the left, as you believe
22 the first vehicle came more or less alongside you in
23 Rossville Street; is that it?
24 A. I was running and the vehicle was coming
25 parallel.
1 Q. From then on you ran across what we have been
2 calling the wasteground, Eden Place and Pilot Row into
3 the gap of the Rossville Flats, the car park there?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. As you ran across that wasteground, was there
6 ever any Pig or any army vehicle, if you like, in front
7 of you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you see any army vehicle come on to the
10 wasteground?
11 A. I actually think they veered in towards that
12 as I was running away from them.
13 Q. Did you see that?
14 A. When I was in the car park I looked back and
15 seen the vehicles. I did not actually see it, I kept
16 looking as they were coming and I just kept, because
17 I was in a panic to get away.
18 Q. It was not until you were in the car park
19 that you were first aware of some army vehicle or
20 vehicles on the wasteground; is that the position?
21 A. To the centre of the opening of the car park
22 would be correct, yes.
23 Q. Do you think it might be, with the passage of
24 time, that your recollection of a soldier or soldiers
25 getting out of a Pig and taking up a firing position
1 relate to Pig on the wasteground, as opposed to being
2 on Rossville Street?
3 A. It is possible with the passage of time.
4 I have tried all through this to ignore what I have
5 seen on the television and what pictures I have seen,
6 you know, I did not want to be --
7 Q. It is difficult to know whether it is your
8 recollection or what you may have imported from what
9 you have seen or been told?
10 A. Well, I was there on the day, you know.
11 Q. Let me leave that and ask you this: you were
12 there on the day and you were involved with the CRA.
13 You did not make a statement, did you, at the time?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. Was there any reason for that?
16 A. I think it was because of the shock I was in,
17 the shock of the events of Bloody Sunday, and then when
18 I started getting into taking the statements of others,
19 it seemed more appropriate to take statements from
20 people who had seen much worse than I had seen on the
21 day. But it never crossed my mind at that time to make
22 a statement.
23 Q. There was not any instruction from the
24 Executive or anything of that kind?
25 A. Oh absolutely not, no, no. I would be
1 opposed to that.
2 Q. You have mentioned a number of names,
3 particularly in the supplementary statement that you
4 made in March, of those who were involved with NICRA,
5 the Northern Ireland and the Derry dimension, if I can
6 put it that way. Did you know or did you hear of Billy
7 McMillen?
8 A. Most of those people, I would have read about
9 them in the newspapers, about civil rights activities
10 all over the north. I do not think I personally ever
11 met any of those people. I knew -- I mean the names
12 were quite common around the place, but I have no
13 recollection of ever --
14 Q. You lived in the Creggan?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. You were aware, were you not, of IRA activity
17 in the Creggan?
18 A. Well, I worked in the area, yeah.
19 Q. Did you know members of the IRA?
20 A. No, the IRA. As you will appreciate, it is
21 a secret organisation and I, I am totally opposed to
22 violence. As I say, I went about my business in the
23 area, but I did not -- it would be conjecture.
24 Q. I understand, it would be conjecture. So you
25 did not know who was in the IRA?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And unless they declared so, you could not
3 know, is that what you are saying?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So whether there were active members of the
6 IRA involved locally with the Derry CRA, you would not
7 know?
8 A. I would not have known.
9 Q. Whether there were active members of the IRA
10 present on the march on Bloody Sunday, you simply would
11 not know?
12 A. No.
13 MR RAWAT: Sir, I have no further questions.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Morrison, the Chairman
15 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to
16 assist the Inquiry, thank you.
17 LORD SAVILLE: I think we have Mr Duffy.
18 I understand Mr Duffy will be our last witness today;
19 is that right?
20 MS McGAHEY: Yes, sir.
21 MR GAVAN DUFFY, sworn
22 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, if you look to your
24 right you have possibly heard me say this to other
25 witnesses, I will say it to you: I am the Chairman.
1 The questions will come this the main from the
2 barristers who sit in front of you and I would ask you
3 to keep your face reasonably close to the microphone in
4 front of you and then we can all hear what you have to
5 say.
6 MS MCGAHEY: Mr Duffy, do you have in front
7 of you a copy to the statement you made to this Inquiry
8 and signed on 15th November 1999?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Do you have a copy of a further statement
11 that you made on 30th January last year?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are the contents of those statements true to
14 the best of your knowledge and belief?
15 A. They are, yes.
16 Q. Everybody here has had a chance to read your
17 statement, so I am not going to ask you about
18 everything contained in them. If we look at the first
19 page, which is on the screen at the moment, you tell us
20 that you were on the march with your friend
21 Paul McGeady. You must have been, I think, about
22 18 years old at the time; is that right?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. If we look at paragraph 4 you say that you
25 could hear some trouble in William Street, you could
1 hear rubber bullets and saw that some people were wet.
2 But you, and particularly your friend, Mr McGeady,
3 wanted to stay away from the trouble and you decided to
4 go down to Free Derry Corner.
5 At paragraph 6 you tell us you had gone down
6 Rossville Street and reached Free Derry Corner. Your
7 recollection is at that stage the speeches had started;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you remember who was speaking?
11 A. I have no idea.
12 Q. Can you remember who was on the platform?
13 A. No.
14 Q. We know from other evidence that
15 Ms Bernadette Devlin was among those on the platform;
16 she was a well-known figure at the time, was she not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember seeing her on the lorry?
19 A. I do not, I do not know.
20 Q. Your friend Mr McGeady has given to statement
21 to the Inquiry and for the record it is AM219. His
22 recollection is that you cut across the Eden Place
23 wasteground from William Street, reached the rubble
24 barricade, heard a rumour there had been shooting in
25 William Street and went back up?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does that sound right?
3 A. That sounds --
4 Q. Your recollection is you did not get as far
5 as Free Derry Corner?
6 A. I think my statement was towards Free Derry
7 Corner. I did not say we actually reached it, but we
8 were heading in that direction.
9 Q. Do you remember while you were in that area
10 between the rubble barricade and Free Derry Corner
11 hearing any shots being fired?
12 A. The only thing I can recall is maybe rubber
13 bullets and gas cannisters, but no actual shots.
14 Q. At the time you could tell the difference
15 between rubber bullets and live fire?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In any event you decided, paragraph 7, to
18 return. You went back up William Street, the
19 disturbances were still going on, there was still
20 shouting and the noise of rubber bullets in that area
21 and you both decided to walk back towards Free Derry
22 Corner?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You tell us you went through the wasteground
25 on the side of Kells Walk?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And looked into William Street from the point
3 that you have marked "A" on the map that we have all
4 seen, an alleyway leading out of Kells Walk into
5 Rossville Street?
6 A. Rossville Street, yeah.
7 Q. At paragraphs 7 and 8, your recollection is
8 from that alleyway you could see three or four Pigs
9 flying up Rossville Street at great speed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When you say "up Rossville Street", does that
12 mean towards Free Derry Corner?
13 A. Yes, it does, yeah.
14 Q. And your recollection is still that they were
15 going at some considerable speed?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were there people in the way of these Pigs?
18 A. I only had a view of -- through an alleyway,
19 so I could not say.
20 Q. If we go to paragraph 8, you came out of
21 Rossville Street to the south of the rubble barricade,
22 having gone through Glenfada Park North; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You came out at the eastern entrance to
25 Glenfada Park North. You saw a crowd of people on
1 Rossville Street, some running past towards Free Derry
2 Corner and you do not remember at that stage seeing the
3 Pigs?
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. Did you look for them?
6 A. I expected them to be there right at the
7 barricade or somewhere close, yeah.
8 Q. At paragraph 9 you go on to say that "there
9 were people around the barricade, some throwing stones
10 and empty bottles. The majority were just watching."
11 If we could have on the screen, please,
12 EP35.4. You have seen this photograph before, I think,
13 Mr Duffy?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You have told us that you do not recognise
16 yourself in that photograph?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Does this photograph show the sort of numbers
19 of people who were at the barricade when you arrived
20 there?
21 A. They would do, yes.
22 Q. If we go on to EP35.3, you have also seen
23 this photograph before?
24 A. I have, yes.
25 Q. Do you believe the person there may be you;
1 is that right?
2 A. It may be, yeah.
3 Q. The person in the middle. You tell us that
4 you were not throwing anything; that is right?
5 A. That is correct, yes.
6 Q. But others were?
7 A. Yes, yeah.
8 Q. Others, presumably to the left and right of
9 you were throwing things?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So why did you go right to the middle of this
12 activity?
13 A. I was just drawn towards it, I just wanted to
14 see what was happening.
15 Q. At what or at whom were the people at the
16 barricade throwing missiles?
17 A. There were soldiers making their way up
18 through Kells Walk on the side, they were throwing the
19 stones at them.
20 Q. And at anyone else?
21 A. Not really, no.
22 Q. You have told us earlier in your statement,
23 if we go back to AD155.2, paragraph 8, at the time you
24 arrived there was a crowd of people on
25 Rossville Street, some running past?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does that mean that crowd of people has to
3 run through those who were throwing stones and bottles?
4 A. No, no, no, they were running past. There
5 was a crowd throwing stones as well, though.
6 Q. Had the crowd running past gone by the time
7 the stone-throwing started?
8 A. No, there was still people running past, but
9 there was not that many people throwing stones. It was
10 not a massive crowd of people throwing stones. There
11 was more people making their way up to get out of the
12 way.
13 Q. Did those people have to go past those who
14 were throwing the stones?
15 A. I am sure they must have, some of them, yeah.
16 Q. You have told us that you saw soldiers at
17 Kells Walk and that they were firing rubber bullets in
18 paragraph 9?
19 A. Mmm.
20 Q. And you are certain those were rubber
21 bullets?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. How did you know that?
24 A. As I say, I have lived in the area for a
25 length of time, I know what rubber bullets looked like,
1 and the sound.
2 Q. Mr McGeady has told us that those rubber
3 bullets were at the far end of their range and were not
4 reaching those at the barricade; is that your
5 recollection?
6 A. I would agree with that, yes.
7 Q. Going on to paragraphs 10 and 11, you saw a
8 youth running along the wasteground to the north of the
9 Rossville Flats?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you did not recognise him, but you have
12 seen a photograph.
13 If we could have a look at EP24.5A you think
14 this may be the boy that you saw?
15 A. I think it may be, yes.
16 Q. Do you recognise him from that photograph?
17 A. I do not, no.
18 Q. Is it simply a scene similar to the one that
19 you saw?
20 A. It is a scene very similar, yes.
21 Q. But you could not tell us whether that is in
22 fact the boy that you saw?
23 A. Not from that photograph, no.
24 Q. If we go back to your statement, back to
25 paragraphs 10 and 11 on AD155.2, you say:
1 "A soldier appeared from the back of the
2 Rossville Flats and hit the youth with his rifle butt.
3 The youth fell to the ground and at the sight of him
4 being hit with a rifle a lot of people at the barricade
5 surged forwards and some threw stones and others joined
6 the crowd."
7 Again I am only asking you to give us a rough
8 estimate: what was the sort of number of people who
9 surged forwards towards the soldier and the boy?
10 A. I would say there was about 80, 80 people.
11 Q. About 80 people?
12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, when you say "surged
13 forward", you mean got on to the, beyond the
14 William Street side of the barricade?
15 A. No, most of the people were in -- round about
16 Glenfada Park on the opposite side of the barricade and
17 as they seen the youth being attacked by the soldier,
18 they surged forward towards the barricade.
19 LORD SAVILLE: The Free Derry Corner side of
20 the barricade?
21 A. Yes.
22 LORD SAVILLE: That they came up towards the
23 barricade?
24 A. Yes.
25 LORD SAVILLE: That is what you are saying?
1 A. That is what I am saying, yes.
2 MS McGAHEY: Thank you, sir. Did any of
3 those people that you saw go in front of the barricade
4 further towards the soldier?
5 A. Yes, there was a few people in front of the
6 barricade, yes.
7 Q. Again, can you tell us roughly how many?
8 A. I would say maybe between 20, 30 people.
9 Q. Were those people throwing missiles?
10 A. Some of them were, yes.
11 Q. At whom?
12 A. At the soldiers. By this time more soldiers
13 appeared from round the flats, at the wasteground and
14 out of Kells Walk.
15 Q. Did you see any people approach the soldier
16 in an effort to rescue the boy?
17 A. No, I did not notice that, no.
18 Q. You have told us in paragraph 11 that the
19 soldiers emerged. You then tell us that you heard a
20 shot fired and can you now recall hearing that shot?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was it a live shot?
23 A. It was a live shot, yeah.
24 Q. And the boy to your left who had been either
25 on the barricade or slightly to the south of it was
1 blown backwards with his arms outstretched?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. From which direction, first of all, do you
4 think that that shot had been fired?
5 A. The shot came from round the bottom end of
6 Kells Walk/Glenfada Park side.
7 Q. Did you see any soldier in that area firing
8 at that time?
9 A. There was five or six soldiers in the area,
10 but I did not see the soldier firing the shot at that
11 time.
12 Q. Was that the first live shot that you heard
13 that day?
14 A. That is the first live shot I recall, yes.
15 Q. You said:
16 "The boy fell backwards with his arms
17 outstretched"; did you see anything in his hands as he
18 fell?
19 A. No, there was nothing in his hands.
20 Q. You tell us in paragraph 12, you having
21 focused on him before he was shot, but you think he was
22 surging forward with the crowd?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In his statement Mr McGeady says he believes
25 the boy had been moving forwards to rescue the youth on
1 the wasteground; can you help at all with that?
2 A. Well, you could say everybody was sorta
3 moving forward maybe to give assistance to the person
4 that was being arrested, so ...
5 Q. If we could have on the screen, please, P637;
6 you have seen this photograph before, I think?
7 A. I have, yes.
8 Q. We can see in the middle of the photograph a
9 boy lying on the ground. You have told the Inquiry you
10 think this may be the boy who fell backwards?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does he appear familiar to you from looking
13 at that photograph?
14 A. No, he does not, but the scene seems to be
15 the one that I have described, yes.
16 Q. Do you believe this may be the boy you saw,
17 simply because of the position he is in on the ground?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It is possible, although not certain, that
20 there is a further person on the ground there to the
21 left of the photograph. Do you recall seeing anybody
22 there when you were there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. He was the only person that while you were at
25 the barricade you saw at this time?
1 A. He was the first one, yes.
2 Q. If we go back to your statement to AD155.2,
3 paragraph 12: in the middle of that paragraph you say
4 that "shots then began to ring out from all over".
5 Can you give the Inquiry any idea of the
6 direction or directions from which you think these
7 shots were coming?
8 A. The shots were coming from Kells Walk, the
9 soldiers at Kells Walk.
10 Q. Is that the only direction you think from
11 which they were coming?
12 A. Yes, that is the only direction.
13 Q. When you said in your statement that "the
14 shots began to ring out from all over", what was it
15 that you meant?
16 A. I meant from that area.
17 Q. And you refer to "one soldier being somewhat
18 in front of the others at the little walk of the wall
19 at Kells Walk firing two or three shots directly up
20 Rossville Street."
21 By "up Rossville Street", again is that the
22 direction towards Free Derry Corner?
23 A. Yes, towards the barricade.
24 Q. You could see the sparks from his gun. He
25 seemed to be crouching and lunching, as if moving
1 forward, shooting at the same time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That is your recollection now of what he was
4 doing?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If we could have a photograph of P261,
7 please, on the screen. Again, you have seen this
8 photograph before?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you have drawn attention to the soldier
11 here?
12 A. Uh-huh, yes.
13 Q. Does that soldier look, from his posture and
14 his location, to be the one to whom you are referring?
15 A. It does indeed, yes.
16 Q. What makes you think that is the soldier who
17 was lunging and crouching and firing?
18 A. I cannot be certain because there is no
19 actual crowd at the barricade at this time, but that
20 was the position he was in; he was standing out from
21 the rest, he was moving forward.
22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, that does lead to
23 asking if you can help me a little bit more. You have
24 told us about how this boy got knocked down on the
25 wasteground, quite a lot of people surging up to the
1 barricade because of that, a few going over the
2 barricade and throwing stones. Then, as I understand
3 it, the shot --
4 A. Yes.
5 LORD SAVILLE: -- and this boy falling
6 A. Yes.
7 LORD SAVILLE: -- you think backwards, and
8 then you have been asked about other shots. We are
9 just talking about this soldier, but in that sequence
10 of events, I have the picture in my mind from your
11 evidence at the moment of quite a lot of people at the
12 barricade who have come surging forward and then the
13 shot; what happened to those people?
14 A. It took a long time for people to determine
15 whether -- because people were not really certain that
16 they were live shots they were firing. You see people
17 were looking at each other, it was only when they
18 realised that everybody sort of dispersed in all
19 different directions. I was not too clear at the start
20 that the soldier was actually firing.
21 LORD SAVILLE: The first shot that you heard
22 did not disperse --
23 A. Did not, no.
24 LORD SAVILLE: -- the crowd. Then you talk
25 about the other shots. Is it at that stage the crowd
1 cottoned on to what seemed to be happening and started
2 getting out of it?
3 A. It certainly was when I caught on anyway,
4 yes.
5 LORD SAVILLE: Your memory is that other
6 people appeared to cotton on at about the same time?
7 A. I would say so, because people then started
8 to crouch behind the barricade.
9 MS McGAHEY: If we go back to your statement
10 at AD155.2, highlight paragraphs 12 and 13. At the
11 bottom of paragraph 12, you say that as the soldier was
12 firing you were trying to make your way back across the
13 road towards Lisfannon Park where you lived, but you
14 could not because of the firing at the people on the
15 barricade?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Thinking back now, it is your recollection
18 that that soldier was aiming at the people at the
19 barricade; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Going on from the question the Chairman has
22 just asked you, if you think of seeing that soldier
23 firing at the people on the barricade, how many people
24 were there in that area as he did that?
25 A. Maybe 20 or 30 people crouched down behind
1 the barricade on both sides of the road.
2 Q. "On both sides of the road", do you mean on
3 the side of the barricade nearest to William Street and
4 nearest to Free Derry Corner, or do you mean nearest to
5 Kells Walk and nearest to the Rossville Flats?
6 A. Nearest Free Derry Corner. The barricade had
7 been split. There was a gap in the barricade, I am
8 talking of both sides in the actual barricade on the
9 Free Derry Corner side.
10 Q. All the people you recall were on the Free
11 Derry Corner side?
12 A. Most of them, yes, there was some people on
13 the other side, but most of them were behind the
14 barricade.
15 Q. What were the people on the other side doing?
16 A. They were running towards the barricade
17 trying to get over the barricade.
18 Q. As you recollect it, were those people
19 running as the soldier fired?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many people, again roughly?
22 A. Again there would be 10 or 12 at the far
23 side, I would say.
24 Q. You then say in paragraph 13 that at least a
25 few shots came from the three or four soldiers at the
1 northern gable end of block 1; is that your
2 recollection now?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You have told us a few moments ago that when
5 shots came, as you said initially from all over, in
6 fact you meant from Kells Walk?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When was it, in the sequence of events, that
9 the shots came, you thought, from block 1?
10 A. When I was running across from the barricade
11 back towards the flats, the main entrance to the flats
12 it was the only time I actually seen the soldiers at
13 the corner of the flats firing. I did not even know
14 there were soldiers there at that time.
15 Q. It was only after you were making your way
16 away from the barricade that you were aware of that
17 shooting?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If we go over the page, AD155.3, paragraphs
20 13 and 14, you say that you made your way towards the
21 entrance to block 1 of the Rossville Flats?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you tried to get in through the doorway
24 but you could not because of the number of people who
25 were blocking it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You say that there was a crowd of people
3 running in the direction of Free Derry Corner. Again,
4 at this stage, roughly how many people were running?
5 A. There was not that many people there, but
6 anybody who was at the back of the barricade was trying
7 to get past or into the flats or just get out of the
8 way.
9 Q. Was the shooting continuing as you did this?
10 A. No, there was shooting at that stage, yes.
11 Q. You say that you saw two men fall who just
12 lay on the ground and did not get up, but you do not
13 know whether they fell or were shot.
14 Where were you when you saw this happen?
15 A. I was running. I was running and crouching,
16 trying to get cover from the barricade, running towards
17 the flats, the flat entrance.
18 Q. How close were you to the flat entrance?
19 A. About 10 feet away.
20 Q. 10 feet away?
21 A. 10 feet away.
22 Q. You were obviously heading towards the flat
23 entrance?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How was it that you were able to see what was
1 going on behind you?
2 A. I was looking -- I was looking, I was looking
3 towards the soldiers that were on the far side of the
4 barricade. Everybody else was doing the same.
5 Q. Were you standing, lying, crouching?
6 A. No, I was crouching and trying to run at the
7 same time.
8 Q. Thinking of those two men, one, you say, was
9 on the barricade near the middle of the road and he
10 seemed to fall forwards. He was standing on the
11 barricade itself; is that right?
12 A. I would say he was trying to make his way
13 past the barricade or towards.
14 Q. Which way was he facing?
15 A. He was probably facing as he turned -- he
16 seemed to fall as he turned to face me, faced towards
17 the Free Derry Corner side.
18 Q. When you first saw him, was he facing up
19 towards the soldiers?
20 A. I would say he was, yes.
21 Q. What was he doing?
22 A. Again he was just trying to get out of the
23 way, as I was.
24 Q. If he was facing towards the soldiers and you
25 say also trying to get away?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was he running backwards?
3 A. Not really, no, because I was more or less
4 facing the soldiers and I was trying to get away, I was
5 running sideways, I was looking at the soldiers and
6 I was trying to get away at the same time.
7 Q. And is that what he was doing?
8 A. I would say he was doing the same.
9 Q. Can you remember, for example, roughly what
10 age this man was?
11 A. I would say about the same age as myself.
12 Q. About 18?
13 A. Yes, about that.
14 Q. Can you give us any description at all of the
15 clothes that he was wearing?
16 A. He would have been wearing a lighter coat,
17 but that is, a jacket, I would say.
18 Q. Anything else at all?
19 A. Not really, no.
20 Q. Did you see any injuries on him?
21 A. No, I would not have been close enough to see
22 any injuries on him, no.
23 Q. The second man, you say, he fell to his left,
24 slid forwards towards you, towards block 1 of the
25 flats?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Again, can you remember anything at all about
3 the age of this man?
4 A. Not really, no.
5 Q. Anything at all about the clothes he was
6 wearing?
7 A. Just that he would have been wearing dark
8 clothes, there was nothing standing out, there was
9 nothing --
10 Q. He was wearing dark clothes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Going on to paragraphs 15 and 16, you say
13 that you realised you were not going to be able to get
14 into the flats, so you went around the corner towards
15 the telephone box. People were crouched down and
16 taking cover. The shots at this time were more severe
17 and fairly steady and seemed to be all around. You
18 have told us the echoes were very confusing.
19 Do you have any idea at that point where the
20 shots were coming from?
21 A. I still thought the shots were coming from
22 Rossville Street.
23 Q. You have told us other people were saying
24 that the army might be firing from the walls; did you
25 have any impression of that?
1 A. I did not, no, but there were people there
2 saying that the army was firing from the walls.
3 Q. Was this all live fire?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. You have told us, going on, that you ran
6 along the block 2 shops and then into the alleyway
7 behind Joseph Place?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And took shelter in a garden. At that time
10 the shooting was still going on?
11 A. There was a few shots, yes.
12 Q. Can you give us any idea of how long it took
13 from the moment that you heard that first shot at the
14 rubble barricade to the time that you ended up in
15 Joseph Place?
16 A. I am sure it would have been no more than a
17 minute and a half.
18 Q. A minute and a half?
19 A. I am sure. When I was crouching down at the
20 shops, I was there not for very long, say a minute and
21 a half, it really was.
22 Q. For how long did you stay in Joseph Place?
23 A. I stayed there until all the shooting stopped
24 and I was sure it was all stopped and this was then the
25 people started coming out and moving about, so
1 I thought it was safe then.
2 Q. Roughly how long was that?
3 A. I would say it was at least maybe four, four
4 minutes.
5 Q. Four minutes?
6 A. About four minutes, aye.
7 Q. Paragraphs 17 and 18 you tell us that
8 eventually you went to Free Derry Corner when the
9 shooting was over?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you looked up towards William Street and
12 saw there were soldiers still there, but further up
13 Rossville Street than you had originally seen them
14 before?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That is all I would like to ask you about
17 those immediate events. You have told us in your
18 supplemental statement, which is at AD155.13, that you
19 found a bullet?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Which is now in the possession of the
22 Inquiry. I believe it is right that you are the
23 brother of John Duffy?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Who has already given evidence to this
1 Inquiry?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Your brother told us that the day after
4 Bloody Sunday he went with his brother around the
5 Bogside area and found further bullets.
6 Were you the brother who was with him?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Finally, you must also be, I think it is
9 right, the son of Barman Duffy?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. Could I show you a photograph, please, if we
12 could have P347 on the screen? If you could maximize
13 the left hand half of that photograph, please, does
14 that gentleman look like your father?
15 A. Yes, it is, yes.
16 Q. Thank you very much, those are all the
17 questions I have.
18 Questioned by MS SMYTH
19 MS SMYTH: Mr Duffy, my name is Patricia
20 Smyth and I represent the family of Michael Kelly who
21 was the first boy who was shot at the barricade.
22 I have some questions for you, Mr Duffy: you have told
23 the Tribunal that the majority of the people behind the
24 barricade were not throwing stones?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. I wonder could I ask you to look at a couple
2 of photographs you have not been shown as yet. If we
3 could look at P635. I wonder if I could have control
4 of the first screen, please? Mr Duffy, what I am going
5 to show you now, I am going to point out Michael Kelly
6 to you shortly before he was shot; do you see
7 Michael Kelly bending over slightly?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know where you would have been at the
10 time that photograph was being taken, would you have
11 any idea?
12 A. I would say I would have been the middle of
13 the road somewhere.
14 Q. Would that have been close to Michael Kelly?
15 A. It would have been fairly close, yeah.
16 Q. A matter of a few feet?
17 A. Well, maybe yards.
18 Q. I wonder could we look at another photograph
19 of Michael Kelly before he was shot, 635. Again, if
20 that photograph could be lightened, please. Can you
21 see, Mr Duffy, that is another photograph of
22 Michael Kelly taken just shortly before he was shot?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It is clear from that photograph and from the
25 preceding photograph that Michael Kelly is simply
1 standing with his arms down looking down
2 Rossville Street?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that would suggest, would it not, that
5 Michael Kelly was one of the majority of those people
6 who was not throwing stones or doing anything at that
7 barricade?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. I wonder if I could show you an account,
10 Mr Duffy, an account that was given to the
11 Widgery Tribunal, by a soldier whose name is
12 Soldier F. That is at B140, if that could be put on
13 the screen, please.
14 Mr Duffy, Soldier F is the soldier who we
15 know from other evidence is the soldier who was
16 responsible for the death of Michael Kelly. What
17 I want you to look at is the account he gave to the
18 Tribunal in 1972 about what was going on at the
19 barricade before he opened fire. I wonder if
20 question 8 and question 9, if they could be
21 highlighted, please.
22 Mr Duffy, if you see three questions down,
23 what Soldier F is being asked is this:
24 "Question: As soon as you left the vehicle
25 in that position, what did you do or what came to your
1 notice?
2 "Answer: As I left the vehicle, I heard
3 firing. I immediately cocked my weapon.
4 "Question: In which direction was the sound
5 of firing?
6 "Answer: The Rossville Flats."
7 Can I ask you this, Mr Duffy, did you hear
8 any firing from the Rossville Flats?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you hear any firing from the
11 Rossville Flats at any time that day?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If we could go to the bottom five questions
14 on that page, please, if they could be highlighted.
15 Soldier F has just explained that he took cover at
16 Kells Walk, Mr Duffy. What he is being asked is this:
17 "Question: Did you see anything further
18 happening then or hear anything?
19 "Answer: I saw two explosions just in front
20 of the barricade.
21 "Question: In front of this Rossville Street
22 barricade?
23 "Answer: Yes.
24 "Question: What sort of explosions were
25 they?
1 "Answer: Nail bombs.
2 "Question: How far in front of the barricade
3 were they?
4 "Answer: About 40 metres."
5 Can I ask you, did you see or hear any nail
6 bombs being thrown or exploding in front of the
7 barricade?
8 A. No, definitely not.
9 Q. This is before Michael Kelly was shot,
10 Mr Duffy. If we could go to B141, please. If the top
11 half of the page could be highlighted. Halfway down
12 that highlighted piece, there has been a discussion
13 about the sounds et cetera made by nail bombs.
14 Soldier F is then asked this:
15 "Question: What did you do after that?
16 "Answer: After that, I was observing the
17 barricade when I saw a person attempting to throw what
18 looked like a nail bomb. It was fizzing in his hand.
19 I took an aimed shot and then the man with the bomb
20 fell to the ground."
21 Can I ask you this: did you see anyone with a
22 fizzing object in his hand before Michael Kelly was
23 shot?
24 A. No.
25 Q. How close were you to Michael Kelly at the
1 time he was shot?
2 A. I would say I would have been at the middle
3 of the road and Michael would have been at the
4 barricade.
5 Q. A few yards. Do you think if Michael Kelly
6 had had a fizzing object in his hand that is something
7 you would have seen?
8 A. I am sure it would have been, yes.
9 Q. Soldier F was questioned again:
10 "Question: How did you know it was a nail
11 bomb which he was attempting to throw?
12 "Answer: I have seen nail bombs before,
13 I have been quite familiar with them.
14 "Question: Which hand had he got it in?
15 "Answer: Right hand
16 "Question: How was he throwing it when you
17 fired?
18 "Answer: At an angle, a side throw."
19 Did you see anything like that, Mr Duffy?
20 A. No, I did not, no.
21 Q. Can I ask you one further question: if we
22 look at photograph 636, please. In the middle of that
23 photograph on the ground we can see the body of
24 Michael Kelly, Mr Duffy; can you see that?
25 At the time of Bloody Sunday did you know a
1 man called Danny Craig?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you know him well?
4 A. Not really well, no.
5 Q. Do you recognise Mr Craig in that photograph?
6 A. Yes, I do, yes.
7 Q. Can you point him out; is he the man at the
8 front of the photograph?
9 A. (Marked with a blue arrow).
10 Q. Can I ask you, at the time you saw
11 Michael Kelly being shot and thrown backwards, did you
12 see Danny Craig anywhere near Michael Kelly that you
13 recall?
14 A. I do not recall that, no.
15 Q. Thank you very much for your help.
16 Questioned by MR COYLE
17 MR COYLE: Mr Duffy, my name is Coyle and
18 I appear for the family of Barney McGuigan. I want to
19 ask you about one matter: could I have Mr Duffy's
20 statement AD155.2, paragraph 11, please.
21 Mr Duffy, I want to ask you specifically
22 about one sentence in your statement. You see the last
23 sentence in that paragraph:
24 "More soldiers came out of the alleyway just
25 to the south of Kells Walk ...".
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If I could take you to AD155.11, it is the
3 attachment I believe my learned friend Ms McGahey
4 showed you a few moments ago and you identified
5 yourself.
6 You see the photograph, looking northward:
7 in terms of time, when you say you saw the soldiers
8 coming out of the area south, or an alleyway south of
9 Kells Walk, is that the position you would have been
10 in?
11 A. The angle of the photograph, I would not be
12 too familiar with, but I just would not be totally
13 sure, no.
14 Q. Perhaps I could assist you with this --
15 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, I notice,
16 Mr Duffy, right at the end of your statement when you
17 are dealing with this photograph, you are saying "I am
18 surprised that the barricade seems so close". We do
19 have in mind this is a very foreshortened photograph,
20 probably taken with a telephoto lens. I can understand
21 your comment if your recollection is you were not that
22 close, the photograph may well make you look closer to
23 the barricade than you in fact were?
24 A. It seems to be that the soldiers and the army
25 vehicles seem very, very close. I mean, I was not too
1 sure about it.
2 LORD SAVILLE: I noticed that in your
3 statement, we all appreciate that you have to be quite
4 careful with this photograph because it is so
5 foreshortened.
6 MR COYLE: To assist you perhaps further,
7 mindful of the Chairman's comments, can I have
8 photograph P411.001.
9 Mr Duffy, this was an aerial photograph of
10 Rossville Street and you see the various areas marked
11 there, again Glenfada Park North and Kells Walk towards
12 the centre, and you will remember the Rossville Flats
13 block 1 is shown. This was not taken on the day, it is
14 an army photograph.
15 Can I point out to you the rubble barricade
16 being there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You see the area at Kells Walk where you
19 discuss with Ms McGahey in terms of the soldier coming
20 out from the wall.
21 In terms of your own location and the
22 intervention the Chairman made to assist, I wonder
23 could Mr Duffy be given control of the screen, please.
24 Mr Duffy, is it possible for you, with the
25 assistance of that photograph, give a better view to
1 the Tribunal of where you were south of the rubble
2 barricade, in other words on the Free Derry side of the
3 rubble barricade?
4 A. (Marked by a light blue arrow).
5 Q. If you again could retain control of the
6 screen and mindful of the first portion of the
7 statement that I directed your attention back to, when
8 you say the soldiers came out of an alleyway south of
9 Kells Walk, you have marked that on your own
10 attachment.
11 Using that photograph, are you able to say
12 what part of Kells Walk or what alleyway they did come
13 out of?
14 A. I thought the soldiers initially were here
15 (marked by a light blue arrow), round this way.
16 Q. Coming out of there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. With reference to that, perhaps that could be
19 saved --
20 LORD SAVILLE: We could take the blue arrows
21 off and leave the white arrows on and save it. I am
22 afraid I do not know the number.
23 MS McGAHEY: AM155.15, sir.
24 MR COYLE: Could I refer you then back to an
25 attachment to your own statement, AD155.7. You see the
1 soldiers moving southward along Rossville Street; were
2 they the soldiers to which you referred or were there
3 other soldiers who came out of another portion of
4 Kells Walk?
5 A. I think that is the soldiers I have seen move
6 forward.
7 Q. The soldiers who came out of Kells Walk, were
8 you able to say from where you were staying whether
9 they were in Kells Walk or whether they had moved along
10 the various walls as they run parallel to
11 Rossville Street?
12 A. I could not actually say exactly where they
13 come out of, but they seemed to be moving along the
14 wall and moving forward.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Duffy.
16 Questioned by MR P CLARKE
17 MR CLARKE: Mr Duffy, my name is Peter Clarke
18 and I appear on behalf of a number of soldiers. Just
19 two matters really: when the crowd got angry at the
20 arrest they witnessed, were you one of the people who
21 were angry as well?
22 A. I probably was, yes.
23 Q. Most of the people who were angry at what was
24 happening were shouting?
25 A. Some of them were, yeah.
1 Q. One would expect them to. They regarded what
2 was going on as outrageous?
3 A. That is correct, yes.
4 Q. Was there any way they were trying, that you
5 remember, to intimidate the soldiers in any way?
6 A. Not "intimidate" as such because I do not
7 think the soldiers could have been intimidated.
8 Q. You could intimidate a soldier with a nail
9 bomb, could you not?
10 A. You could probably, but there was not nail
11 bombs.
12 Q. It would probably make a soldier run away,
13 would it not?
14 A. I am sure it would, yeah.
15 Q. It would, would it not?
16 A. It would, yeah.
17 Q. So if you pretended to throw a nail bomb, the
18 soldier probably would not wait to see whether it was a
19 real one or not, would he?
20 A. I would have no idea how you would pretend to
21 throw a nail bomb.
22 Q. Had you not, no idea at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know what a nail bomb is?
25 A. I am sure I do, yes.
1 Q. Could you help us, what is it?
2 A. It must be some sort of bomb with nails in
3 it.
4 Q. In it or round it?
5 A. Well, in it, round it, whatever.
6 Q. The explosive is in the middle, is it not?
7 A. I am sure it would be, yeah.
8 Q. Mr Duffy, come, in the Bogside in 1972 every
9 self-respecting young man of 18 would know how a nail
10 bomb worked, would he not?
11 A. It explodes and all the nails go all over the
12 place, yeah.
13 Q. Had you actually ever seen one at that time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Never?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you seen photographs of them?
18 A. I am sure I have, yes.
19 Q. So, having seen photographs of them --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- would you not recognise one when it was in
22 someone's hand?
23 A. I am sure I would, yeah.
24 Q. How?
25 A. I am sure it would be big and bulky, there
1 would be nails.
2 Q. Do you remember, as other witnesses have,
3 certainly one, that there was a chant of "hey, hey,
4 IRA" from the barrier?
5 A. I do not recall that, no.
6 Q. Do you not?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Are you sure?
9 A. I am sure, yeah.
10 Q. Do you think you missed that?
11 A. I may have, but ...
12 Q. And the second thing really as far as topics
13 are concerned: Hugh Gilmore you knew well?
14 A. I knew Hugh Gilmore, yeah.
15 Q. Certainly you waved to him at the beginning
16 of the march. We know -- I have no doubt you do --
17 that he was shot and died on the corner of the south
18 gable of block 1?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I am not going to show you photographs unless
21 you need to, Mr Duffy, it is not necessary. I want you
22 to help us about timing: you could not get in the door,
23 could you, of block 1?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you had to flee southwards past the
1 telephone box?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We know that that is where Hugh Gilmore
4 collapsed and we have seen many photographs of people
5 seeing to him at that spot?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Have you actually seen any of those sort of
8 photographs in the past?
9 A. I have seen some of those photographs, yes.
10 Q. When you went past that corner, was there a
11 crowd over a body or was it free of anyone on the
12 ground?
13 A. I did not recall any body there, you know, at
14 that time, no.
15 Q. And probably not something you would have
16 missed?
17 A. Probably not, no.
18 Q. Because you knew what Hugh Gilmore looked
19 like?
20 A. I certainly would have seen a body there.
21 Q. And, to the best of your recollection,
22 Hugh Gilmore was there not as you went past?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Yes, thank you.
25 Questioned by MR ELIAS
1 MR ELIAS: One matter, Mr Duffy, if you could
2 help us about it: the back of Joseph Place, you have
3 told the Tribunal, you went into the gardens and
4 skipped through a couple of gardens?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You could see the walls yourself from those
7 gardens?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you left the gardens, do you remember
10 now which way you made your way to Free Derry Corner,
11 by which route?
12 A. I continued along the alleyway and then
13 crossed over the bottom of Fahan Street.
14 Q. You went the whole length of the Joseph Place
15 houses, did you, before crossing down into
16 Fahan Street?
17 A. Initially, no, I probably stopped at the
18 first block and stayed there for a few moments or
19 whatever and then after the shooting had stopped I made
20 my way out of the alleyway and continued then towards
21 Free Derry Corner.
22 Q. So you went behind Joseph Place, the whole
23 length of it?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS McGAHEY: Sir, one further matter which
1 has been brought to my attention: I understand,
2 Mr Duffy, that you believe that your father on
3 Bloody Sunday was slightly injured when a rubber bullet
4 was aimed at him; is that right?
5 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
6 Q. Did he tell you of the circumstances in which
7 this had occurred?
8 A. He told me the soldiers had tried to come
9 into the flats and he tried to prevent them because he
10 told them there was only women and children in the
11 flats and he was actually hit with a rubber bullet. He
12 grabbed the gun and pushed it down and hit him in the
13 leg. He had this in his pocket, you know, and the mark
14 of the rubber bullet is still there clearly to be seen.
15 Q. That is a snuff box; is that correct?
16 A. That is a snuff box, yes.
17 Q. You can make that available to Inquiry and to
18 the parties to the Inquiry?
19 A. Yes, I can, yes.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Did anyone want to ask any
21 further questions in relation to that, because it is a
22 separate matter from that with which Mr Duffy has been
23 dealing with today?
24 MR ELIAS: Sorry, sir, I do not want to ask a
25 question, I wanted to know whether this was information
1 that the witness had given to the Tribunal before
2 today?
3 LORD SAVILLE: Not as far as, I think, the
4 Tribunal members are concerned, no, perhaps Ms McGahey
5 can help us.
6 MS McGAHEY: It was passed to me from the
7 solicitors, who I believe may have represented Mr Duffy
8 at the statement-taking stage, about 30 seconds ago.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, as I was about to
10 say: thank you very much indeed on behalf of the
11 Tribunal for coming here to assist the Inquiry, thank
12 you.
13 (The witness withdrew)
14 LORD SAVILLE: We seem to have timed today
15 quite well and, as I said earlier today, we will resume
16 here at 9.30 on Tuesday morning.
17 MS McGAHEY: Sir, one matter if I may on next
18 week's batting order. Two witness schedules have been
19 distributed today. The earliest one had a Mr Rigney as
20 the final witness of the week. A revised schedule has
21 now been distributed. Instead of Mr Rigney, the last
22 witness of the week will be Ms Teresa Cassidy, who is
23 at AC51. We apologise for any confusion we have
24 caused.
25 (3.05 pm)
1 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on
2 Tuesday, 19th June 2001)
3 MR HUGH LOGUE, sworn
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 1
5 Questioned by SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER................. 44
6 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 51
7 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 70
8 MR CHARLES COLUMBA MORRISON, sworn
9 Questioned by MR RAWAT.............................. 79
10 Questioned by MR KENNEDY........................... 113
11 Questioned by MR COYLE............................. 116
12 Questioned by MR O'HANLON.......................... 117
13 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 121
14 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 130
15 MR GAVAN DUFFY, sworn
16 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY........................... 135
17 Questioned by MS SMYTH............................. 160
18 Questioned by MR COYLE............................. 166
19 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 170
20 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 174