Page 1


1 Thursday, 14th June 2001

2 (9.55 am)

3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, before we get on

4 with our next witness, so that people can make travel

5 and similar arrangements, I can say we have manage to

6 arrange the meeting to which I referred yesterday

7 afternoon to take place on Monday, so that the hearings

8 in the Guildhall here will resume, not on Monday, but

9 at Tuesday at 9.30.

10 MR HUGH LOGUE, sworn

11 Questioned by MR CLARKE

12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, I say this to all

13 the witnesses: the questions will come from the

14 barristers who sit in front of me. All I would ask you

15 to do at this stage is to try and remember to keep your

16 face reasonably close to that microphone in front of

17 you so that everybody is able to hear what you have to

18 say.

19 MR CLARKE: Mr Logue, do you have with you

20 your statement to this Tribunal, signed by you on

21 11th December last year?

22 A. I have, yes.

23 Q. I believe there are two corrections you would

24 like to make. If we go to paragraph 12.1, KL2.4, you

25 there say:


Page 2


1 "Insom(?) attached refers to the split

2 between the Provisional and the Official IRA. I would

3 say that this was an accurate description. At that

4 time the Provisionals ..."; I understand you would like

5 that to read "the Provisional Republican movement was

6 going a certain way and the Officials remained with

7 NICRA."

8 Then it says:

9 "The Provisionals were in the

10 ascendancy ..."; I think you would like that to

11 read "the Provisional Republican movement was in the

12 ascendancy and the Officials in decline"; is that

13 right?

14 A. Almost, but not quite. At the time the

15 Provisional Republican movement was going a certain way

16 and the Official Republican Movement remained with

17 NICRA. It is only in reference to the previous

18 sentence where it says "the Provisional and the

19 Official IRA", and I wanted to make it clear that this

20 is a further thought. At the time the Provisional

21 Republican movement was going a certain way and the

22 Official Republican movement remained with NICRA,

23 otherwise I am satisfied.

24 Q. The second qualification, if we go to

25 paragraph 18, which may be found at KL2.7, the last


Page 3


1 sentence as written reads:

2 "The Simon Winchester article attached, dated

3 18th April 1972, after the AGM of NICRA is largely an

4 accurate portrayal of the situation."

5 I think you would like to add the words:

6 "But not the headline"?

7 A. "The Simon Winchester article but not the

8 headline", yes.

9 Q. Subject to those two qualifications, are the

10 contents of this statement true to the best of your

11 knowledge and belief?

12 A. By and large, yes, I think so. Yes.

13 Q. We have all had the opportunity of reading

14 it, so I am only going to ask you some supplementary

15 questions in relation to it. You describe in

16 paragraphs 3 and 4 how you became involved with the

17 civil rights movement you were at Queens and were

18 yourself injured in the burn toll lit incident. That

19 was at the end of a march from Belfast to Derry; is

20 that right?

21 A. That is right, yes.

22 Q. You describe how you joined the North Derry

23 Civil Rights Association and, together with Finbar

24 O'Kane, and in 1970 he was the Chairman and you were

25 the Vice Chairman of that association and in 1971 you


Page 4


1 were both elected to the Executive Committee of NICRA;

2 is that right?

3 A. That is right, yes.

4 Q. Did you remain Chairman and Vice Chairman of

5 the North Derry Civil Rights Association in 1971?

6 A. '71 and '72.

7 One other thing there, if I may, in terms of

8 paragraph 3: I only joined the march at Claudy. I had

9 not been in it from Belfast.

10 Q. You describe, in paragraph 5 in relation to

11 the North Derry Civil Rights Association, how neither

12 you nor Finbar O'Kane had any political alignment,

13 although you became a member of the SDLP.

14 You say that:

15 "Our populist inclusive leadership, prevented

16 members of the Official Republicans from gaining

17 authority"; that is in the North Derry Civil Rights

18 Association, is that right?

19 I want to ask you about the position in

20 relation to the national organisation, NICRA. If we

21 come to paragraph 9 at KL2.3, you describe in that

22 paragraph how there was no representation within NICRA

23 of Official party positions, but there were members

24 sympathetic to Official republicanism, communism and

25 non-alliance centre group, which included you,


Page 5


1 Professor Kevin Boyle as he now is and Finbar O'Kane

2 and a small number sympathetic towards the Northern

3 Resistance Movement.

4 You describe how, by the end of 1971 the

5 Official Republican/Communist alliance within NICRA had

6 a small majority, but those of you who were in the

7 centre stayed on because you believe you could resist

8 any takeover and maintain the broadest possible

9 grouping in NICRA; is that right?

10 A. That is what I have said there.

11 Q. I assume it is correct?

12 A. Well, I think I should say that NICRA was an

13 umbrella body.

14 Q. Yes. Could we have on the screen GEN5.23?

15 I wonder if I could very quickly go through with you an

16 exercise that I have performed in relation to another

17 witness to identify the political alignment so far as

18 known of the Executive Committee. This is a NICRA

19 document. It is headed "State of the Executive

20 Committee". Its exact date is unknown, but it is

21 plainly post-internment because it refers to two people

22 as being interned and three people as being not

23 available. We understand that was because they were

24 trying to avoid being interned. It gives the list of

25 the elected representatives, the regional


Page 6


1 representatives and a number of co-options. I am sure

2 there are a lot of names there are familiar to you.

3 If we go through them: Ivan Barr, am I right

4 in thinking that he was in the Official Republican

5 Movement?

6 A. I think so.

7 Q. Frank Gogarty?

8 A. Was not, from what I recall.

9 Q. Was he any party alignment?

10 A. I do not think so.

11 Q. Edwina Stewart, we know was communist.

12 Ann Hope?

13 A. Ann Hope did not have alliances, but she

14 tended to vote similar to Edwina.

15 Q. Kevin Boyle, non-aligned.

16 Rebecca McGlade?

17 A. Had Republican, from what I recall.

18 Q. Andrew Boyd?

19 A. Was Northern Ireland Labour Party, I think.

20 Q. We know George Huxley was a professor at

21 Queens, but I think no particular political alignment?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. Aidan Corrigan?

24 A. Would have been sympathetic, I think, to the

25 Northern -- what were they called, Northern Resistance


Page 7


1 Movement.

2 Q. Yes. Des O'Hagan?

3 A. Republican Clubs.

4 Q. Malachy McGurran, Republican Clubs?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Liam McMillen?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The same, in other words?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sam Dowling, the same?

11 A. I am not sure.

12 Q. Finbar O'Kane?

13 A. Non-aligned.

14 Q. Hugh Logue is you.

15 Rory McShane?

16 A. Non-aligned.

17 Q. John McClelland?

18 A. Non-aligned.

19 Q. Brigid Bond?

20 A. Would have voted by and large with the

21 Republican Clubs when it came to a vote, which there

22 were not all that many of.

23 Q. Jimmy Doris?

24 A. Non-aligned.

25 Q. Madge Davidson, we know was communist.


Page 8


1 Dalton Kelly?

2 A. I always regarded as being sympathetic to the

3 Republican.

4 Q. Joe Deighan?

5 A. I thought he had sympathies with, along with

6 the Edwina -- the Communist Party line, I could not be

7 sure.

8 Q. That is what Edwina Stewart told us.

9 Miriam Daly?

10 A. I first met her in SDLP circles as far as

11 I recall and would, I think, eventually went much more

12 -- at that stage would have been non-aligned, but was

13 moving towards sympathy for Provisionals, I think.

14 Q. Bried Ruddy?

15 A. Again, non-aligned, but would have taken the

16 whip, shall I say, from the Republican side of things.

17 Q. Go back to paragraphs 6 and 7 of your

18 statement at KL2.2. You describe there on the

19 introduction of internment the North Derry Civil Rights

20 Association organised a series of demonstrations in

21 a number of villages in the North Derry area and two

22 demonstrations to the Magilligan camp which was being

23 prepared.

24 You describe how, on 16th August, you

25 participated with John Hume and Ivan Cooper in


Page 9


1 a demonstration in Laburnam Terrace designed to prevent

2 army tanks rolling into the Bogside.

3 You do mean "tanks", do you, as opposed to

4 some other form of army vehicle?

5 A. These military vehicles were the size of

6 houses, so, tanks, I think they were, they were very

7 large -- they were not personnel carriers, the normal

8 kind of personnel carriers, they were tanks, yes.

9 LORD SAVILLE: We have pictures of what we

10 have been calling Pigs, which are pretty formidable

11 looking vehicles.

12 MR CLARKE: You describe how soldiers under

13 the command of Paddy Ashdown, who did well thereafter,

14 used water cannon and fired rubber bullets to disperse

15 the protest. This was the occasion which gave rise to

16 the celebrated Londonderry Justice's case, which you

17 describe in paragraph 8?

18 A. Yes, I mean Paddy Ashdown later acknowledged

19 that our sit down action was the most responsible

20 action that could have been taken on the day.

21 Q. Could we come, please, to paragraph 11 at

22 KL2.4?

23 A. May I, before we move on, going back to

24 paragraph 6 because I think there should be some

25 counterbalancing emphasis. The introduction of


Page 10


1 internment, there was an immense anger and outrage in

2 the community and we had to confront it; there was no

3 way that it -- one could be rolled over by it, all the

4 more so in Magilligan where right -- the camps were

5 being set up in our very midst. So the challenge to us

6 was to see that the injustice that we regarded

7 internment as had to be confronted and we were clearly

8 determined, in a non-violent manner, to organise the

9 withdrawal of consent to be governed at that time.

10 So I think we have to see the context of it:

11 there was an immense sense of outrage at the time and

12 that should be borne in mind. Thank you.

13 Q. Could we then, please, come to paragraph 11

14 at KL2.4: you recite there how you have been asked

15 about the influence of the Official Republicans in

16 Derry and you say that, in the North Derry Civil Rights

17 Association they carried no authority and your

18 experience was that they carried no real clout in Derry

19 and that it was the Citizens Action Committee,

20 John Hume, Paddy "Bogside" Doherty, and Gary Cooper who

21 carried the real influence in the local community; is

22 that right?

23 A. That is right, yes.

24 Q. We know from the evidence that has

25 accumulated in this case that by the beginning of 1972


Page 11


1 there had been quite a lot of violence in this city

2 from week to week.

3 Were you aware, in general terms, of the

4 extent of the paramilitary organisations in Derry in

5 late 1971/early 1972, simply the size?

6 A. I do not think I was aware of the size.

7 There was clearly activity and there was -- violent

8 incidents were occurring, but I had no idea of the

9 scale of it.

10 Q. We know in relation to the Provisionals that

11 Martin McGuinness was their adjutant.

12 Did you know who the leaders of the

13 Provisionals were in Derry, apart from him?

14 A. Apart from him, you say, the word was that

15 Martin McGuinness was in charge, or running the show.

16 Q. We have heard that too.

17 A. (Laughing) At the time.

18 Q. Did you know whether -- did you know any --

19 I do not mean know personally -- but did you know who

20 else was in the Provos leadership in late 1971/early

21 1972?

22 A. Not at all. One might have been aware that

23 families were sympathetic to them, but that would have

24 been as far as it would have gone.

25 Q. What about the Officials; did you know who


Page 12


1 their leaders were in late 1971/1972?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In paragraph 12 you refer to a set of

4 intelligence summaries which you have been shown and

5 which we have obtained. In paragraph 12.2 you refer to

6 a paragraph in one of those intelligence summaries,

7 number 99, which comments that Kevin Agnew was actively

8 recruiting for the Provos and surmises that Kevin

9 Agnew's involvement in NICRA could mean that NICRA was

10 supporting the Provisionals and that such an

11 interpretation is absolutely incorrect; is that right?

12 A. That is what I have said there.

13 Q. That is right, is it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know, if it was ever the case, that

16 Kevin Agnew was actively recruiting for the Provisional

17 IRA?

18 A. Can I say that I was astonished, generally,

19 at reading the military -- the summaries, intelligence

20 summaries, how hostile they were, how out of touch they

21 were, how even newspapers like the Irish News are

22 dismissed as Republican press, how people like

23 John Hume and Ivan Cooper are treated as if they are

24 fellow travellers and sympathisers with the Republican

25 movement.


Page 13


1 As regards Trevor Agnew, Agnew participated

2 in platforms; he was on the street each day; he was

3 around. We had the -- you had the power of internment,

4 or the Government had the power of internment at that

5 time. If these Military Intelligence -- if they

6 believed their own Military Intelligence, they had the

7 opportunity to pick him up at any stage to interrogate

8 him. I do not think that ever happened.

9 So I have no faith in it whatsoever. He

10 could be a rather flamboyant speaker and cause perhaps

11 some embarrassment to NICRA and therefore you will find

12 that he was seldom on the North Derry platforms, but

13 there was no reason to believe -- and I still do not

14 believe -- that he was recruiting for the Provisionals

15 and if the army believed for one moment that he was,

16 they had the opportunity to take action on it; he was

17 not hidden or on the run.

18 Q. I think Kevin Agnew had been on the Executive

19 at the beginning of the 1971/72 year, but I think he

20 resigned and his place was taken by Finbar O'Kane, is

21 that right?

22 A. It was prior to my coming on the Executive.

23 Q. If we go to paragraph 12.4, at KL2.5, you say

24 that in general you found the comments contained in the

25 intelligence summaries to be wide of the mark since


Page 14


1 they were attempting to illustrate a link between the

2 civil rights movement and the IRA; no such link, formal

3 or informal, existed.

4 Did you know that Liam McMillen, a member of

5 the NICRA Executive, was a prominent member of the

6 Belfast Official IRA?

7 A. I did not.

8 Q. Can I tell you why I am asking you that:

9 could we have on the screen LTL12? This is a passage

10 from the well-known book "Lost Lives" detailing the

11 deaths of everybody, civilian or Security Forces who

12 lost their lives in the troubles. This is the entry

13 that deals with the death of Billy McMillan on 28th

14 April 1975, and in the last two paragraphs in this

15 column it describes him as having held a key position

16 in Belfast republicanism and having been:

17 "One of the most respected IRA members in

18 west Belfast throughout the 1950s and 1960s as having

19 taken part in the IRA campaign of the 1950s and

20 interned for four years, standing in 1964 as the

21 Sinn Fein candidate for west Belfast."

22 If we could highlight the next column,

23 please: it describes how, during the period of

24 internment, he was described as one of the most wanted

25 men in Northern Ireland. In the next paragraph, it


Page 15


1 describes how, over the period from 1971 to 1975 there

2 were at least three attempts on his life.

3 Did you know any of that, apart from the

4 obvious fact of him standing in the Sinn Fein interest

5 in the elections?

6 A. When you say -- I know it now that you have

7 told it to me, that he was one of the most wanted men.

8 There were quite a number of people who would have been

9 sought after by -- post-internment.

10 Q. May I take you back to the previous stage in

11 terms of -- this is the first time I have seen this,

12 but I note that in the paragraph above you say, it said

13 that McMillan was trying to -- where was it, "negotiate

14 a cease-fire". Can we have the top?

15 A. "His death came as he was apparently

16 attempting to negotiate a cease-fire in a Republican

17 feud."

18 I did not know him very well. At meetings he

19 did not say a lot, but so long as people were signed up

20 to non-violence I was ready to welcome them and,

21 therefore, I would have assumed he was signed up to

22 non-violence when he was on our Executive.

23 Q. You were not aware that attempts had been

24 made on his life in 1971, or at some time after 1971?

25 A. Well, if I was, I have forgotten.


Page 16


1 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 13 and 14

2 on KL2.5: you describe in paragraph 13 how one of the

3 groups involved in NICRA was the Northern Resistance

4 Movement whose objective appeared to be to make the

5 aims of NICRA more Catholic orientated and wished to

6 focus on Catholic rights, thereby adopting a sectarian

7 approach to civil rights with which the North Derry

8 Civil Rights Association did not agree."

9 What are Catholic rights?

10 A. They were wanting to concentrate on

11 discrimination against Catholics and that appeared to

12 me, as I say there, to adopt a sectarian approach,

13 whereas on all my time on the NICRA Executive I do not

14 recall anyone advocating a sectarian approach, a

15 sectarian sentiment; there was not a sectarian fibre in

16 the body of NICRA.

17 Might I also say that I never recall anyone

18 proposing any proposal to act violently or anyone

19 supporting violence with references to Mr McMillan or

20 any of the rest of them. I never remember that around

21 the table at NICRA.

22 Q. May we come to KL2.6, paragraph 15: in this

23 paragraph you refer to the use of stewards and NICRA's

24 involvement with stewards. You make the qualification

25 that that was not something that you were ever directly


Page 17


1 involved in organising, but you say that your

2 perception is that:

3 "The NICRA Executive appointed a Chief

4 Steward for the march, plus several assistants, and

5 that it was then the responsibility of the Chief

6 Steward and his helpers to multiply their numbers."

7 How strong is that perception; was that

8 always so? The reason I am asking is we have the

9 impression, at any rate in relation to the Derry march,

10 that the stewarding was dealt with at local level and

11 we have not heard, I think, before of a NICRA Executive

12 appointed chief steward for the march?

13 A. I think that may not be -- that is in danger

14 of misleading you when I say "the NICRA Executive

15 appointed a Chief Steward for the march". They would

16 have sought to ensure a chief steward was appointed.

17 For example in the North Derry march to Magilligan we

18 had appointed Vincent McMahon as our chief steward for

19 the march, together with some of the other stewards

20 I have mentioned there, and they would then have

21 secured other people. That is the basis, Mr Clarke,

22 that I am responding from -- okay.

23 Q. They would have seen to it that there was one

24 without necessarily appointing one themselves?

25 A. They would have satisfied themselves that one


Page 18


1 was there and that they had confidence in him.

2 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 17 at

3 KL2.6? This is in the portion of your statement

4 dealing with the civil rights marches and the

5 possibility of IRA involvement. You describe in

6 paragraph 17, in the second sentence, how, if it was

7 the case that NICRA sought any assurances from the

8 Provisional IRA prior to the Derry march, you were not

9 informed of this nor aware of it at the time.

10 Does the same hold good for the Official IRA?

11 A. Absolutely.

12 Q. Were you aware of the Derry Civil Rights

13 Association seeking some sort of assurance or

14 indication from either paramilitary wing?

15 A. Only long after the event.

16 Q. You were not aware at the time.

17 May we then come, please, to paragraph 19 on

18 KL2.7 which deals with the Magilligan march which, as

19 you say, was organised by the North Derry Civil Rights

20 Association, though, as I understand it, under the

21 auspices, as it were, of NICRA; is that right?

22 A. That is right.

23 Q. You were obviously there. We have heard

24 quite a lot of evidence about it and I do not want to

25 go into that in any detail, but could I come to KL2.9?


Page 19


1 You describe at the top of that page, KL2.9,

2 how, as the march approached the barbed wire, hastily

3 erected by the army banning your way along the beach,

4 the soldiers opened up with rubber bullets and came

5 towards you wielding batons.

6 Was that because some of the protesters had

7 tried to get into the fenced-off area by going round

8 the fence where it gave out at the high water mark?

9 A. That might be what the army would say. What

10 happened, I think, was that the wire was hastily placed

11 across the beach down, as you say, to the high water

12 mark, indeed into the water, and some people would have

13 ran towards the sea to get around that point before the

14 barricade prevented them.

15 Q. Were they laying the barbed wire as the march

16 approached?

17 A. They were extending it.

18 Q. Extending it?

19 A. Extending it.

20 Q. May we come, then, to the Derry march itself

21 and may we look, please, at KL2.10?

22 You describe in paragraph 26 how you were not

23 asked to take part in the organisation of the march,

24 save to ask John Hume to participate. I assume you did

25 ask him to do so; is that right?


Page 20


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the upshot?

3 A. Well, you have asked me there a number of

4 questions. I had not participated in the organisation

5 because, on 7th January where it was decided to hold

6 the meeting, I was not at that meeting, in fact I was

7 on my honeymoon, and at the meeting on 14th I was

8 asked. It was probable that I indicated that John Hume

9 might not participate, and I notice from the minutes of

10 the NICRA meeting that a fallback of Ivan Cooper,

11 I think that would have come from me, suggesting that

12 if Hume was not available -- because as far as I can

13 recall from the NICRA minutes there is nowhere else is

14 there a fallback speaker suggested.

15 What was the upshot of asking John Hume?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I think it was probable I would have asked

18 Hume about Magilligan and Derry at the same time. He

19 would have agreed to Magilligan because he had a great

20 deal of confidence, or he had a considerable amount of

21 confidence, in the North Derry Civil Rights

22 Association, a confidence that did not fully extend to

23 the Derry Civil Rights Association. He agreed to

24 Magilligan.

25 I recall us debating would we set out on the


Page 21


1 road or on the beach. He was very keen to take the

2 paths that would take us off the road and down to the

3 beach because that would be a legal march, and I think

4 at that point I came away with the view that I would

5 bag the Magilligan attendance and wait to see if he

6 would attend later the Derry one, but I already had

7 doubts that he would do Derry.

8 Q. We know that in the event he did not. Do you

9 know why he did not; did he tell you why he was not

10 going to?

11 A. I should say that John Hume was a person for

12 whom I have the highest respect; he is a man of immense

13 moral, physical and political courage; I have not met

14 his like. When he indicated that he had doubts, his

15 primary doubts, I think at that time were about the

16 organisers, not so much, I think, their competence in

17 terms of stewarding or anything like that because there

18 had been a number of marches in Derry which he had

19 participated, some of which had been banned over the

20 time and all had been very well stewarded by the

21 Catholic ex-servicemen, by a range of groupings within

22 the city and I think his doubts rested really with the

23 Civil Rights Association in this city, from which he

24 was alienated.

25 Q. We had a witness yesterday, Mr Havord, who


Page 22


1 was the Press Officer of the Association who told the

2 Tribunal that John Hume had said to him, Mr Havord,

3 that he regarded the Derry CRA as politically

4 dangerous?

5 A. I saw that view -- what was said yesterday

6 and if John Hume said that, John Hume said that.

7 I think that the further interpretation that John Hume

8 was not in any way politically nervous of them in terms

9 of opposition is without foundation. As far as

10 I recall, many of that group that were then

11 pro-Republican Clubs in the city ran in the next

12 election after Bloody Sunday. I would doubt if they

13 saved their deposit. Mr Hume, Mr Canavan and myself

14 were elected.

15 Q. We can tell from your previous answers fairly

16 recently the minutes that have survived of the NICRA

17 Executive on 7th January and 14th January 1972. We

18 have had some evidence that there was a meeting of the

19 NICRA Executive on 28th January, which was the Friday

20 which would be its normal time to meet.

21 Do you remember whether you were present at a

22 meeting, the Friday immediately before the march?

23 A. I should say I have only seen the minutes in

24 recent times, very recent times, when the statements of

25 other participants have, or other witnesses have been


Page 23


1 given to me and I did not have them at the time I was

2 making my own statement or any corrections to my

3 statement.

4 My recollection is that I was there.

5 I cannot be certain that I was there, but I notice that

6 George Huxley says that he chaired a meeting and

7 I recall a meeting that George Huxley chaired. I think

8 I would have been there as well on the basis of giving

9 information about the participants and -- but I do not

10 recall a great deal about the meeting.

11 Q. We know that in the event the march did not

12 attempt to go through the barricades at the east end of

13 William Street, but the lorry turned off, taking a

14 right-hand turn, going down Rossville Street to Free

15 Derry Corner.

16 Do you remember when that was mooted? It may

17 not matter much precisely when it was; do you happen to

18 remember?

19 A. I cannot be sure.

20 Q. We know also that on 14th January meeting

21 there was a delegation from Derry who were reporting

22 back about the march, four or five members of the

23 Executive having been sent to Derry, as it were,

24 following the meeting of 7th January.

25 Do you have any recollection of the delegates


Page 24


1 and the subcommittee, as it were, reporting of the

2 state of the organisation of the march on Derry?

3 A. Can I say a couple of points, if I may

4 there: I noticed in, I think it was Professor Boyle's,

5 that I was a member of that; I was not, and Kevin now

6 accepts that I was not a member of that. I can plead

7 honeymoon again there at that meeting, so I was not a

8 member of that grouping. I do not remember much of the

9 detail in terms of the group that gave -- that attended

10 the 14th January meeting. I suspect that they were

11 brought along and it was often in the nature that they

12 would have come and been pleased to be there but would

13 not have said very much at the meeting, they would have

14 left it to whoever was coming.

15 I do recall now on the 28th meeting, and

16 I think I made reference to it in my statement

17 somewhere, that I would have been advising that the

18 potential threat of the counter demonstration was

19 nothing to take serious and that it was unlikely, and

20 I think there would have been still a degree of

21 resolution in nearly everyone, and certainly in myself

22 and a number of others, that we should go to the

23 Guildhall because the Guildhall would have been out of

24 the ghetto and the Guildhall, as far as I recall, we

25 had had a demonstration directly post-internment, a


Page 25


1 very ad hoc, very quick demonstration, about 14th, 15th

2 August of that year in which Finbar O'Kane participated

3 as well, and it was important to claim the Guildhall

4 for subliminal reasons in terms of the Commission

5 coming into this city and what this building

6 represented.

7 Q. Did you say it was important to claim the

8 Guildhall?

9 A. Claim the Guildhall Square in sofar as it

10 should not be -- I do not mean in any sense of victory

11 or I do not mean exclusively, but I think we should not

12 be denied is what I am saying, the Guildhall.

13 Q. Were you proposing to come into the

14 Guildhall?

15 A. No, sorry, I am using shorthand for the

16 Guildhall Square.

17 Q. I wanted to make clear what you said.

18 May we come to the day itself and could I ask

19 you to look at paragraph 32, which is at KL2.11? You

20 describe the march proceeding down William Street,

21 seeing barbed wire and barricades, thinking that all

22 the surrounding streets were barricaded so there was

23 only one way forward and having the impression that

24 most people would have known to turn right no

25 Rossville Street.


Page 26


1 May I ask you this: when you started on the

2 march, where did you think the march was going to end

3 up?

4 A. It is a good question. (Pause) I suppose

5 there still was the hope that it would get to the

6 Guildhall.

7 Q. But you saw, presumably, the -- by the time

8 you had got to the junction the lorry and the march had

9 already turned down, had they?

10 A. That is right.

11 Q. When you say, therefore, that you had the

12 impression that most people would have known to turn

13 right into Rossville Street, do you mean by that that

14 you reckoned that when the lorry turned, as in the

15 event it did, most people would go with it?

16 A. I mean, reflecting on your previous question:

17 I had no great sense of disappointment or frustration

18 that our way was blocked. Clearly, I would have

19 preferred the Guildhall, and I think we fully expected

20 people to follow the lorry.

21 There was, from what I remember, a row of

22 stewards across the, at William Street, particularly

23 covering the pavements. There was also a barricade,

24 was there not, of some sort?

25 Q. It depends where you mean by


Page 27


1 "William Street"; there was an army barricade at the

2 end of William Street as it turns to go towards the

3 Guildhall Square.

4 A. At the junction of William Street stewards

5 were encouraging people to go down.

6 Q. At the junction of William Street and where?

7 A. Rossville Street.

8 Q. There was not a barricade there?

9 A. No, but there was a group of stewards there.

10 Across and behind them there would have been -- further

11 back down William Street there was a barricade.

12 Q. At the time you got there, you saw stewards

13 at the junction, but behind them, as I understand it,

14 and further east down William Street, rioting was

15 already going on at the army barricade?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Had the NICRA Executive considered the

18 possibility or likelihood of there being rioting at a

19 barricade if it was placed at the end of

20 William Street?

21 A. They never for one moment contemplated that

22 there would be gunfire, it would have been crazy and it

23 never crossed their mind, despite Magilligan, that

24 gunfire would open, otherwise people would not have

25 been brought onto the streets.


Page 28


1 As for rioting, I do not think they

2 contemplated that either. There had been, on the other

3 hand, at previous demonstrations what the army referred

4 to as "aggro" after marches, at the fringes of it and,

5 I suppose, to use an army phrase "there was an

6 acceptable level of aggro" basically that might have

7 been tolerated, but it was not encouraged, in fact it

8 had been wholly deplored by the Civil Rights

9 Association.

10 Q. Did the Civil Rights Association consider any

11 ways or means by which aggravation, "aggro", could be

12 avoided?

13 A. Other than trying to prevent it through

14 stewards, no.

15 Q. Did it have any plan as to how exactly it

16 would prevent it through stewards?

17 A. I think you encouraged the young people to

18 move in the direction of the march and to stay with the

19 march and to desist from taking on the soldiers, that

20 it was counterproductive and that was the only means we

21 had; we only had non-violent means.

22 Q. Some of the witnesses who have given evidence

23 from the NICRA Executive have suggested that the plan

24 was that the lorry would turn right down

25 Rossville Street -- this is if there was a barricade in


Page 29


1 William Street, as in the event there was -- the plan

2 was that the lorry would turn right down William Street

3 and access to the east end of William Street would be

4 prevented by a row of stewards and two people from

5 NICRA would go to the end of William Street, and them

6 alone, to make a protest at the barricade.

7 Do you remember any discussion of some such

8 plan?

9 A. I do not recall the detail -- sorry, I do not

10 recall the detail of it, but it would have had a

11 precedent in terms of earlier marches which John Hume

12 had led in Derry on the bridge, where a token breach of

13 the barricade took place where two people would walk

14 forward and climb across the barrier and make their

15 protest and that satisfied everyone; that had been

16 negotiated in the past.

17 So it does not surprise me that that was, but

18 I do not recall it.

19 Q. You do not recall it. Your answer may be the

20 same to this question in the light of what you have

21 said, but do you recall anybody in the NICRA Executive

22 giving any consideration to the number of stewards that

23 might be needed at what could be a critical point,

24 namely the junction between Rossville Street and

25 William Street if people were to be prevented from


Page 30


1 going down to the east end of William Street and

2 reaching the barricade?

3 A. I think you are assuming a level of

4 discussion at the NICRA Executive about the innards of

5 a march which never really took place, it would have

6 been done at the local organisation level and that

7 would have been between the organiser and the Derry

8 CRA, and certainly in our experience in relation to

9 Magilligan our assurances would have been fully

10 accepted and there would have been no particular

11 investigation into how or why.

12 Q. Do I express it fairly by saying it this way:

13 NICRA regarded that sort of matter as the

14 responsibility of the local Civil Rights Association?

15 A. In conjunction with their chief organiser,

16 McCorry, I would have thought. His word would have

17 carried the day.

18 Q. You describe in paragraph 33 stopping at the

19 junction of William Street and Rossville Street.

20 Could we go down to paragraph 35 on the next

21 page: looking around for Finbar O'Kane, hearing rioting

22 and tear gas being fired at the east end of

23 William Street and being approached by three man and a

24 woman to ask if you could help somebody who had been

25 hit in the face by a gas cannister and then helping him


Page 31


1 down to the flats, or they helped him down to the flats

2 at your suggestion, and you walked in front of the

3 group that was holding him; is that right?

4 A. That is right, yes.

5 Q. I wonder if I could show you a photograph;

6 could we have on the screen P783? Did you cover the

7 name of the injured man, no?

8 A. No, I still do not know his name.

9 Q. Does that photograph bring back any memories?

10 A. I cannot be sure, the hair is accurate.

11 I thought there was -- did I say two men and a woman or

12 a woman and a man.

13 Q. You said three men and a woman. You said you

14 were approached by three men and a woman; your

15 statement does not specifically say how many took him

16 down?

17 A. In that photograph I cannot see his face, can

18 you?

19 Q. No, his face is, I am afraid, hidden by his

20 hair. There is another one, P784; I do not know

21 whether that is any better. No, that is worse. You

22 cannot positively identify?

23 A. No.

24 Q. May we come to paragraphs 35 and 36, KL2.12.

25 You describe -- it is the very end of paragraph 34, we


Page 32


1 need not turn it up -- how, as you got to block 1 of

2 the flats, the group who were with the injured man

3 began to run and overtook you, having seen what was

4 coming behind them and you all ran to the stairwell and

5 as you reached the bottom of the stairwell at the north

6 of block 1, about three APCs drove at speed into the

7 car park and people started to shout and scream.

8 Before then had you been conscious that the

9 army were coming into the Bogside?

10 A. No, before then my only awareness of the army

11 was the army on -- the aggro that was going on on

12 William Street, the gas and that, but I was not aware,

13 no.

14 Q. You describe going up the steps, somebody

15 shouting that "they are shooting" and when you got two

16 or three steps further, turning round and looking

17 through the slats in the stairwell and seeing the three

18 APCs in the car park, the third of which came to a halt

19 at about the point you have marked "B" on your map

20 attached to your statement which is at the mouth of the

21 car park. We can see it there.

22 I would like to show you a photograph, P188,

23 please: this is a photograph taken on the day a bit

24 later in time than the events that you are immediately

25 describing. Is that the sort of view that you saw from


Page 33


1 the slats of the --

2 A. Where am I? That is the stairwell, is it?

3 Q. The stairwell of the flats is there, you can

4 see the slats. There looks to be an armoured personnel

5 carrier in almost exactly the position that you are

6 talking about?

7 A. Well, there were three of them.

8 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you about

9 because we know, from this photograph and others, that

10 the initial location of the army vehicles when they

11 came into the Bogside was that one of them came here,

12 that is to say to the mouth of the car park; one of

13 them went up over on the right-hand side, it is not in

14 the photograph, but went up to have its front facing

15 the back of one of the Chamberlain Street houses; but

16 the rest of them, at an early stage -- and it looks as

17 if we are talking about an early stage -- were in line,

18 almost in line abreast along Rossville Street. There

19 is a soft-skinned lorry there.

20 You have a recollection of seeing three at

21 the mouth of the car park, do you?

22 A. The three I saw, they swept in and you see

23 where you have the two red arrows, they were there,

24 sweeping in there. One of them may have come round

25 there, I think, and two -- but the three were sweeping


Page 34


1 in, initially, in that form and soldiers were

2 disembarking from them before the vehicles became

3 stationary.

4 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, could I ask a

5 question, please? Mr Logue, to your right: when you

6 say "swept in", did any of the three Saracens actually

7 enter that car park area that you can see on the

8 photograph as opposed to being at the mouth of the

9 entrance?

10 A. What I saw, sir, was -- I did not see any

11 coming into that car park, other than where that one

12 there would be. They would have stopped and the other

13 two, I think, would have been behind that.

14 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, are you going to show

15 Mr Logue that photograph with the Saracen at the back

16 of Chamberlain Street?

17 MR CLARKE: I will, I am going to show him

18 another one initially.

19 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, I wanted to ask

20 a similar question because your written statement says

21 "I saw the three aforementioned APCs stopping in the

22 car park", and I was wondering whether you used the

23 expression "car park" to include this marked-out area

24 we see in this photograph and also at least some of the

25 wasteground behind. I was not quite sure what you


Page 35


1 meant by "stopping in the car park"?

2 A. Are there slats both sides there; I am

3 looking at them through the slats?

4 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I think there are, are

5 there not; there are slats to the north as well as to

6 the east?

7 MR CLARKE: Yes.

8 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, is the answer?

9 A. I am looking through the slats and I had

10 always assumed that they were out on the corner as it

11 were rather than, and that is car park as well.

12 MR CLARKE: Could we have EP28.4A: this is a

13 photograph taken on the day. You can see that a lot of

14 people are fleeing to the south, to the middle block --

15 towards the middle block or towards the alleyways

16 between the block of flats.

17 Firstly, when you went to the stairwell,

18 which to orientate you is there, were there

19 approximately this number of people or more or less?

20 A. A good deal less.

21 Q. Less?

22 A. And that is Rossville Street behind where you

23 are.

24 Q. That is Rossville Street behind. We can see

25 in this photograph that one of the APCs came across


Page 36


1 there, where I am pointing out, and I believe -- though

2 the photographs may be open to interpretation -- that

3 that is the Pig which ended up off the picture, up

4 facing towards Chamberlain Street.

5 If one looks at EP28.5, which is the next

6 photograph in the sequence; some more vehicles are

7 coming down Rossville Street, we can see them there,

8 and it may be that the vehicle that ended up at the

9 mouth of the car park is actually at this very moment

10 coming out of the top of the block 1 of the flats.

11 What appears then to have happened is that

12 one vehicle ended up in the photograph that I showed

13 you a moment ago at the mouth of the car park,

14 approximately where the red arrow on the screen is and

15 the other vehicle which went to the back of

16 Chamberlain Street, if we could have a look at

17 photograph P594, ended up, as we can see it in this

18 photograph, facing a building at the back of

19 Chamberlain Street just below Eden Place, which is

20 there.

21 Does that bring back any recollection; do you

22 remember seeing a vehicle drive towards the back of

23 Chamberlain Street quite some way away from the car

24 park?

25 A. If you can go back about two photographs,


Page 37


1 I would like, if I can -- if you could go back two

2 photographs --

3 Q. EP28.4A, please.

4 A. -- I think I can answer your question,

5 Mr Clarke, and also deal with the question that was

6 raised by the Chairman. You see where this Pig is,

7 that is what I regarded, and in my statement when I say

8 "the car park", that is the space into which I saw the

9 three arrive. It was the third one from which the

10 soldiers were disembarking. Now it obviously became

11 stationary. I cannot say if the first or the second

12 stopped there, or whether, as you are inquiring,

13 whether they moved further along: three came in, the

14 soldiers were disembarking from the third one and it

15 was by and large located -- and it was out of those

16 slats that I would have been looking in that direction.

17 Q. You saw three coming into the area where

18 approximately your blue arrow is. One of them stopped

19 at the mouth; what happened to the other two you are

20 less sure of; is that right?

21 A. As I say, they moved forward. Perhaps my

22 statement, when I say "the car park", is misleading

23 insofar as that I am not talking about this territory,

24 I am talking about the territory -- is that immediately

25 northwest, or?


Page 38


1 Q. Do not worry about the direction?

2 LORD SAVILLE: It is more or less north in

3 fact.

4 MR CLARKE: You say "the other two moved

5 forward"?

6 A. This was a third one, this is a momentary

7 glance through the slats and the three are sweeping

8 in -- I should say the three were sweeping in over my

9 shoulder off Rossville Street, coming in, if I have --

10 coming in like so, in a circle and the three seemed to

11 be stopping, but the one I saw, the soldier, disembark

12 from was a third one, the latter one.

13 Q. Did the three appear to you to stop fairly

14 close to each other?

15 A. They appeared to, within a matter of metres

16 of each other.

17 Q. May we then come, please, to KL2.13,

18 paragraphs 37 to 39? You describe there proceeding

19 south along the balcony of block 1, trying to enter the

20 first door, opening it and as you did so, hearing a

21 single shot which made a very sharp sound and appeared

22 to come from behind you to the north.

23 Is that the first shot that you heard that

24 day?

25 A. That is the first shot I heard. I am not


Page 39


1 saying it was the first shot because, as I am coming up

2 the stairs, someone said "there is shooting".

3 Q. When somebody said that they were shooting,

4 did you have a recollection of hearing any noise at

5 all?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Had you heard the sound of rubber bullets

8 before you heard the single shot which you describe in

9 this paragraph?

10 A. Certainly at the corner of Rossville Street,

11 and I could not be sure whether it was rubber bullets

12 or gas cannisters, but there was certainly that duller

13 thud, yeah.

14 Q. When you were in Rossville Street coming down

15 to block 1 with the injured man, were you conscious of

16 hearing any rubber bullets in the wasteground or

17 anywhere like that?

18 A. I cannot recall distinguishing rubber bullets

19 from the general melee that there was.

20 Q. Would I be right to assume there was really

21 quite a lot of noise going on?

22 A. That is a correct presumption, yes.

23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, the Chairman again,

24 you may not be able to answer this: do you have any

25 idea which balcony you got onto?


Page 40


1 A. I got onto the first balcony, I am pretty

2 sure I was on the first balcony. I am not sure,

3 Chairman -- I say there I tried to enter the first

4 door, it may have been the second; the first one that

5 opened, I think.

6 LORD SAVILLE: You think it was probably the

7 first balcony?

8 A. I think it was the first balcony, yes.

9 MR CLARKE: You describe in the succeeding

10 paragraphs how, once you had got into the flat you lay

11 on the floor with a sense of relief, more people dived

12 in, spread themselves around the room on their hands

13 and knees and you heard shots to the front, that is to

14 say to the side of the flat which overlooked

15 Rossville Street and there was then a lull and you

16 looked out of the window and saw a soldier lying flat

17 on the ground with his rifle slightly elevated,

18 pointing south towards Free Derry Corner at the spot

19 that you have marked as "C".

20 May we look at KL2.28. Sorry KL2. --

21 LORD SAVILLE: It is KL2.38 in our bundles.

22 MR CLARKE: Somebody has helpfully numbered

23 mine 28. The spot you have marked as "C" is just to

24 the side of the pram ramp at the north end of

25 Glenfada Park North; is that right?


Page 41


1 A. I cannot be sure of where the pram ramps were

2 and "C" may have been a metre either way. What I do

3 recall was that there was something like a ridge wall.

4 The soldier was lower than a ridge wall, I think, that

5 was alongside there.

6 Q. Did you see any other soldier at that stage?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Or any army vehicles?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You describe in paragraph 39, KL2.13 --

11 A. If I may, you asked me there a moment ago did

12 I see any other soldiers or anyone; I am not saying

13 there was not any out in front, but my height above, my

14 eye is just above the windowsill, I would not have been

15 able to see directly below me onto the flats and ...

16 Q. You describe in paragraph 40 how the soldier

17 did not appear to feel himself under any threat or to

18 take cover.

19 If we go to paragraph 41 on the next page you

20 describe hearing a single shot and lowering your head

21 and the shot appeared to come from his direction; is

22 that right?

23 A. That is what I said, yes.

24 Q. Should we understand from that that there

25 appeared to be a shot fired towards the block in which


Page 42


1 you were, or simply you heard the noise of a shot and

2 the noise appeared to come from where the soldier was

3 whom you had seen?

4 A. My impression would have been that the shot

5 was towards the Free Derry Corner. I do not know why

6 that was my impression, but I had no sense that they

7 were firing at me or us.

8 Q. If we could take paragraphs 43 to 46: you

9 describe remaining on the floor until Father Irwin came

10 and then subsequently, see paragraph 5 walking down the

11 stairs with Father Irwin and seeing a body near the

12 bottom of the stairwell, which you think was Kevin

13 McElhinney.

14 Did you know Kevin McElhinney?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So why do you think it was him?

17 A. I learned afterwards that it was. I learned

18 afterwards that that was probably who it was of the 13.

19 Q. You went out of the flats and saw the body of

20 Barney McGuigan and you helped to carry

21 Barney McGuigan, and the man you believe is Kevin

22 McElhinney, to the ambulance and got into the passenger

23 side; is that right?

24 A. I moved round to the passenger side to --

25 because there was a breach in the divide of the


Page 43


1 ambulance, from what I remember, where you would have

2 communicated and I was still involved in organising or

3 trying to accommodate bodies in the ambulance.

4 Q. If we go to paragraph 48, you describe there

5 how, after you had gone to the passenger side of the

6 van to assist from there, the shooting started again

7 and you think that one shot came from the Free Derry

8 Corner and one from the city or William Street side.

9 You describe the sounds of those shots as varied, one

10 made a duller sound and the other made a sharper

11 sound.

12 Can you remember from which side the duller

13 side appeared to come?

14 A. I cannot be sure.

15 Q. Do you have any idea?

16 A. Um, I suspect that the duller sound came from

17 my left-hand side, which would have been the Free Derry

18 Corner.

19 Q. If we look at EP2.19, and if we look at the

20 man in the ambulance -- can we highlight that on the

21 left-hand side, please -- I understand you think that

22 that may be you?

23 A. I think it is.

24 Q. Had the shooting taken place, do you think,

25 before this photograph was taken?


Page 44


1 A. I think definitely not because when the

2 shooting started to take place, I get on my knees on

3 the edge of the van, get my head under a seat and the

4 ambulance moves off while I am in that position while

5 the shooting is going on.

6 Q. If we could restore the whole of this

7 photograph. This photograph and a number of others

8 show the late Father Mulvey?

9 A. Indeed.

10 Q. He is in fact waving a handkerchief and there

11 is a series of photographs in which he walks further

12 north, that is to say further towards William Street.

13 It looks as if what he was doing, there is some

14 evidence he was, trying to stop people shooting because

15 there was an ambulance which needed to take people to

16 hospital. You would not have seen that, I assume

17 because, as we can see if that is you, you are sitting

18 in the ambulance facing Free Derry Corner.

19 Were you conscious of Father Mulvey being

20 there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you very much, those are my questions.

23 Questioned by SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER

24 SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER: Mr Logue, just a few

25 questions. Could I first deal with your credentials:


Page 45


1 for the last 15 years or so you have been working at

2 European Commission in Brussels, is that right?

3 A. 1984 to 1989 -- sorry, 1984 to 1999, yes.

4 Q. Variously acting as advisor to Presidents of

5 the Commission?

6 A. When it came to the peace package, I was an

7 advisor to both President Delors and then subsequently

8 for the next passage to President Santerre in the

9 construction of the peace and reconciliation packages

10 which you were provided.

11 Q. Being back to the early 1970s, you were

12 involved with the SDLP; is that right?

13 A. I was not when I joined the civil rights

14 movement and, even when I joined the Northern Ireland

15 Civil Rights Executive, that I became more and more

16 involved -- yes, I was a member of the first Executive,

17 which, I think, was by 1972.

18 Q. In 1973 did you stand and be elected to the

19 National Assembly on behalf of the SDLP?

20 A. I was, yeah.

21 Q. In 1974 did you stand as a Parliamentary

22 candidate for Westminster in the United Kingdom general

23 election?

24 A. For the SDLP.

25 Q. As an SDLP candidate?


Page 46


1 A. I did, yeah.

2 Q. I assume from that period you had close

3 association with John Hume?

4 A. John Hume was the first person to mention to

5 me that I might seek a nomination for the SDLP.

6 Q. It was, presumably as a result of that period

7 of time, in the early 1970s, that you acquired the

8 great admiration for him which you expressed earlier?

9 A. Respect, I think, for him and over the years,

10 yeah.

11 Q. Can I now ask you to look at GEN5.29? This

12 is the second of the two January meetings which were

13 held by the Executive Committee at which you attended.

14 That is the one for 14th January?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You see your name there?

17 A. Yes, indeed.

18 Q. Would you then turn to page 30 and you will

19 see there a discussion, the first item on the agenda;

20 that is 29. Over on page 30 there was a discussion

21 about the disruption day; that would have been 9th

22 February, would it not?

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. And there were arrangements there for some

25 demonstration to take place and you were responsible,


Page 47


1 I think it looks as if you are responsible for

2 arranging matters in Tyrone; is that right?

3 A. My primary responsibility is, I think, a

4 little lower where -- Derry county as well, yes.

5 Q. Would you turn over the page to 31: you will

6 see there a decision by the Executive Committee not to

7 meet with the Northern Resistance Committee again.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Am I right in assuming that you were one of

10 the six?

11 A. I suspect I was, insofar as I had agreed to

12 meet them once, and had met them once and had been

13 disillusioned by the direction that they were going.

14 Q. Would I be right in inferring from that, as a

15 demonstration of NICRA's determination to maintain its

16 independence and not to be associated with any

17 organisation, which did not in fact promote peaceful

18 non-violence?

19 A. If I may take a moment on that --

20 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, Mr Logue,

21 I would certainly like you to give a little bit of

22 explanation as to what direction you thought at the

23 time they were going?

24 A. Well, Chairman, the prospect of dealing with

25 them, the Northern Resistance Committee or Movement --


Page 48


1 I think, NCM -- any attraction that it had essentially

2 was a geographic attraction because they were much

3 better based in South Tyrone, the Dungannon area; they

4 were much better based in Fermanagh. The

5 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was very

6 poorly organised in those areas and had some difficulty

7 mobilising, so from a geographic reason there would

8 have been an interest in spreading our effectiveness

9 had we been able to reach an accommodation.

10 My sense of them -- that is where I wanted to

11 pick up on what Sir Louis Blom-Cooper was saying --

12 I never had any sense of them being pro-violent, but

13 I had a sense of them being ex-sectarian. Coming back

14 to the issue of concentration on rights exclusively for

15 Catholics and discrimination against Catholics and, as

16 I said earlier, I do not have a sectarian bone in my

17 body and I do not believe I ever encountered, outside

18 of NRC, any sectarianism within the Civil Rights

19 Association.

20 That was where the alienation or the

21 disaffiliation would have been at its most -- at its

22 sharpest.

23 Q. Would I be right in assuming that that

24 demonstrated that NICRA was constantly on the lookout

25 for any association with other organisations in the


Page 49


1 field, in the general field of civil rights?

2 A. We were constantly on the lookout --

3 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure I understood the

4 question.

5 SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER: I will rephrase it:

6 that NICRA was always concerned that any association

7 with any other body outside its own organisation should

8 be in conformity with the precepts of the civil rights

9 movement?

10 A. Yes, NICRA was an umbrella body, rather loose

11 umbrella body, but it was an inclusive body that

12 embraced anyone who was prepared to sign up to a

13 culture of non-violence and a means of protesting,

14 vigorous protesting, I have to say, but so long as it

15 was non-violent.

16 Q. Would you turn to KL2.10, paragraph 27? You

17 will see there that you assumed that the NICRA

18 Executive would have formally told the police of the

19 arrangements for the march. Where did you get that

20 assumption from?

21 A. We would have done so for the Magilligan

22 one. I think the Chief Inspector in the area at that

23 time may have been a policeman called Irwin and we

24 would have given him notice that we were doing it, and

25 I think it was a matter of course that you told the


Page 50


1 police that you were going to march, or that you were

2 applying to march. They clearly were not going to give

3 you permission, but -- it was a formal thing rather

4 than anything else of telling them.

5 For example as regards Magilligan, I do not

6 think we gave the exact route to them at any stage, but

7 we would have informed them that we were going to.

8 Q. We have heard that from time to time

9 Brigid Bond had certainly informal talks with

10 Chief Inspector Lagan; did you know about those?

11 A. No, but it would not surprise me.

12 Frank Lagan was an outstanding policeman, working in

13 very difficult circumstances, who kept his ear to the

14 ground and had good relations with a wide range of

15 people as a matter of knowing what was going on.

16 I came to respect him a great deal.

17 Q. Did you yourself know Chief Inspector Lagan?

18 A. Very well.

19 Q. Did you have discussions with him from time

20 to time on policing matters?

21 A. More particularly after I became elected, say

22 1973. At that stage he was more in the city and I was

23 in the county and -- but I would regularly have had

24 discussions with him.

25 Q. How did you regard him?


Page 51


1 A. Very highly.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 Questioned by MR LAWSON

4 MR LAWSON: Mr Logue, my name is Lawson and

5 I represent some of the soldiers.

6 Can I ask about a couple of matters, please,

7 concerning your evidence in relation to Bloody Sunday

8 itself before asking for your help on some slightly

9 more general issues. If we have on the screen, so that

10 you can see where my question comes from, KL2.11,

11 paragraph 29?

12 You indicated in your statement, which

13 I assume you adopt, that there was no sense of

14 foreboding about the march and that, for your part at

15 least, you did not know that the Paratroop Regiment

16 would be in Derry?

17 A. That is right, yes.

18 Q. It had not been suggested to you, I take it

19 in terms that the paras were going to be there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I am not being pedantic, but you say "I did

22 not know they were going to be there"; it had not been,

23 so far as you were aware, rumoured that they were going

24 to be there?

25 A. I had not heard it.


Page 52


1 Q. It is just the Tribunal has heard from some

2 others that there was talk of the paras being there.

3 That, if it happened, did not reach your ears at least?

4 A. I think what I say is, in the context of the

5 previous week at Magilligan, there was the Green

6 Jackets, I think they were called, and the paras, and

7 the paras were an entirely different, of an entirely

8 different nature to the Green Jackets on that day and

9 I think had I realised that the paras were coming from

10 Magilligan to Derry, I would have been much more

11 apprehensive.

12 Q. The only other matter I want to ask you

13 about, is this: in relation to what you saw and heard

14 of shooting on Bloody Sunday -- I will not go over all

15 the ground that has been covered already, or I hope any

16 of it in repetition -- you were aware of APCs, of

17 Armoured Personnel Carriers stopping somewhere near the

18 end of block 1 of the flats, let us not worry about

19 precisely where, and soldiers jumping out?

20 A. That is right.

21 Q. At that stage there was no firing?

22 A. I had not heard any shooting at that point,

23 but it is a matter of instantaneous -- a matter of

24 instance, minute seconds until that first shot I hear

25 and, as I say, someone already had said there was


Page 53


1 shooting, but I had not heard.

2 Q. But you were a matter of feet away, a few

3 feet away, from where the APCs pulled up?

4 A. Yards.

5 Q. All right, yards, but you were not far away?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And you were certainly not aware of any

8 substantial immediate firing?

9 A. I was aware that the soldiers were

10 disembarking from the vehicle and they were

11 disembarking in a manner which permitted them to use

12 their guns very promptly.

13 Q. Yes. Is my question a very difficult one for

14 you?

15 A. Can you repeat it?

16 Q. You, being a matter of yards away, you were

17 not aware of any substantial immediate firing; that is

18 true, is it not?

19 A. By whom?

20 Q. By the soldiers?

21 A. By those soldiers?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. The soldiers that was disembarking from --

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. That is right.


Page 54


1 Q. That is right.

2 MR TOOHEY: Mr Lawson, can you clarify one

3 matter: you put to Mr Logue a question in form that

4 suggested he had said that soldiers had disembarked

5 from the Saracens plural. I took his evidence to be

6 that they had disembarked, so far as he could see, from

7 one of the Saracens; could we clarify that.

8 MR LAWSON: Certainly, sir. Was it one

9 Saracen or more than one Saracen? It is right to say

10 in your statement to the Inquiry at the foot of page

11 KL2.12, you refer to soldiers jumping out of the

12 Saracen in the singular, but you also refer to more

13 than one Saracen stopping.

14 Can you help Mr Toohey in relation to that?

15 A. I think, again, it is the third Saracen

16 arriving in that I thought the soldiers were

17 disembarking from and the member of the Tribunal's

18 recollection, I think, is correct in this.

19 Q. It is one Saracen, as you recall?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That stopped very close to where you were,

22 looking through the slats?

23 A. Yes, there was three Saracens and it was the

24 third of them.

25 Q. As you have said in your statement, and


Page 55


1 doubtless will confirm, the first shot of which you

2 were aware occurred after you had entered into the

3 flat, whether it be the first or second along the first

4 floor balcony?

5 A. Can I say that -- can I see what I said

6 because I thought I said the first shot on the

7 balcony?

8 LORD SAVILLE: Paragraph 37, the next

9 paragraph on the next page.

10 MR LAWSON: Top of page 13, if you want to

11 look at that:

12 "As I proceeded south along the balcony

13 [which you told the Chairman was the first

14 balcony] I tried to enter the first door. I opened it

15 and as I entered the flat I heard a single shot."

16 A. That single shot may well have been, as

17 I say, "as I entered the flat"; it may have been a

18 split second in advance of that.

19 Q. That is the first shot you were aware, at

20 least, whatever others may have been saying about other

21 shooting?

22 A. That is right.

23 Q. That is right. Without trying to put a

24 precise time upon it, is it also right, then, that a

25 short time later there was further shooting that you


Page 56


1 heard?

2 A. That is right.

3 Q. Not many shots, as you recall?

4 A. If that is what I recall, sorry, where is

5 it?

6 Q. I am sorry?

7 A. I am looking for what I recall here.

8 LORD SAVILLE: Can we have the next paragraph

9 up, then?

10 MR LAWSON: You certainly can, paragraph 38,

11 where you say in the anti-penultimate line:

12 "It did not seem to be many"?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Is that your current recollection?

15 A. That is my recollection.

16 Q. It is. It was after those relatively few

17 shots, then, that you looked out of the window.

18 I want your assistance with this: you have

19 described seeing a soldier in a prone position with the

20 gun pointing upwards towards Free Derry Corner. You

21 have the hard copy of the statement in front of you,

22 I need not go to every passage, need I?

23 As I understood the evidence you have given

24 to the Tribunal this morning, you have no recollection

25 of seeing any other soldier when you looked out of the


Page 57


1 window?

2 A. But you recall my correction as well, that

3 I would not have had a full view of all of

4 Rossville Street. I would have from my point only have

5 been able to see across on to that pavement.

6 Q. Into the road as well?

7 A. Well, not more than, um, one-third of one

8 side of the road.

9 Q. Were you aware, for example, of a soldier

10 walking or running down that road at about that point,

11 shooting his gun willy-nilly from the hip?

12 A. Well, you take it -- if you even look at this

13 desk now and I have a much higher view than I had of

14 the windowsill, I cannot see what is down in front of

15 me here. I can see across -- the trajectory of my

16 sight does not permit me to see what is on this side

17 (indicating) or contiguous to the building.

18 Q. The answer is no?

19 A. You asked me what I saw?

20 Q. I asked you if you saw or were aware of a

21 soldier walking or running down past where you were in

22 the flats shooting from the hip?

23 A. Which side of the road would that have been

24 on?

25 Q. On the side of the road that you were


Page 58


1 overlooking?

2 A. On the side of the road --

3 Q. On Rossville Street itself. I cannot give

4 you a precise position, I want you to know, if you can

5 assist the Inquiry, whether you saw or whether you

6 heard what apparently was, more particularly whether

7 you saw a soldier walking or running down and about the

8 area you have indicated where the man was prone, and

9 shooting from the hip?

10 A. On that side I did not see -- I cannot say if

11 it was in the middle of the road, if someone was doing

12 it on the middle of the road or on the side of the

13 road, Rossville Street, contiguous to the

14 Rossville Flats, I would not have had a view of that,

15 so I cannot comment.

16 Q. Can I ask you, please, about a few other

17 matters arising from your earlier evidence? Could you

18 have on the screen KL2.2, please, paragraph 5, about

19 which you were asked some questions by Mr Clarke -- I

20 shall not repeat a single one of those.

21 Do you see four lines from the foot of the

22 passage that is on the screen is reference to, in your

23 words "the few mal contents" in the North Derry CRA who

24 belonged to the Official Republicans?

25 A. Yes.


Page 59


1 Q. Who were the few mal contents?

2 A. There I am referring to a small group who

3 were more concern -- they would probably have been more

4 of the Republican Clubs and they were more concerned

5 with petition signing, holding seminars or collective

6 ownership of wealth and such matters and -- whereas we

7 were, insofar as we held seminars, much more keen on

8 issues pertinent on identity where we sought to engage

9 the Protestant community and the community relations

10 commission on their sense of identity, whether they

11 were British, whether they were Irish, whether they

12 were Ulster, whether they were both. So that was the

13 kind of mal contents I was talking about.

14 Q. My question was: who were the few mal

15 contents?

16 A. This is in North Derry Civil Rights

17 Association?

18 Q. Yes?

19 A. Do you want names?

20 Q. Please.

21 A. I would need to, again, have some recall of

22 those names, and I think it would be unfair from this

23 authority to have the name "mal content" around anyone

24 30 years later when they are perfectly civilised

25 citizens and they were only expressing a different


Page 60


1 point of view from the point of view that was at our

2 meetings. They had nothing whatever to do with any

3 attempt -- they had never any advocation of violence.

4 Indeed, sir, if I was to recall any one occasion on

5 North Derry's CRA where there was an occasion where

6 anyone proposed violence, it was the two, what we would

7 call "agents provocateurs" that the Security Forces had

8 within our organisation.

9 They brought, at one stage, to us a map of

10 the army barracks at Ballykelly, its water supply; they

11 had a ready supply, they said, of strychnine and they

12 would have made that available to us. We dismissed it

13 out of hand. We could see it a mile away; it was a

14 setup by the Security Forces to try to implicate the

15 North Derry CRA in a violent act and we would have no

16 part of it.

17 Q. Mass murder, putting strychnine in the water

18 supply?

19 A. That was what those who were in the

20 organisation at the behest of the Security Forces were

21 proposing to is. If you call that mass murder, I am

22 prepared to agree with you.

23 Q. That is what it sounds like, putting

24 strychnine in the water supply is what you are saying

25 they were procuring you to do. These are the people


Page 61


1 you refer to in paragraph 14 of your statement, are

2 they, at KL2.5?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I do not want you to name them at the moment;

5 do you remember who they were?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. You say there "they were allowed to remain as

8 members of the association"?

9 A. They were, where do I say -- I would be of

10 the view that, long before John Major, that having them

11 in the tent rather than outside the tent was the best

12 way to deal with them.

13 Q. And they remained, what, through 1972, did

14 they, in the organisation?

15 A. I think so, yeah.

16 Q. Are you prepared privately to identify them

17 to the Inquiry?

18 A. One is now dead.

19 Q. And the other?

20 A. I have no idea where he is.

21 Q. Are you prepared to identify them privately

22 to the Inquiry? I presume you do not want publicly to

23 declare their identity and I do not ask that you do so;

24 will you give the Inquiry their names in private?

25 A. If the Inquiry can persuade me that it is


Page 62


1 useful to the Inquiry, then I am ready to do that, yes.

2 Q. You seem fit, Mr Logue, have you not, to make

3 the allegation and now to allege that these people in

4 fact sought to incite, amongst other things, mass

5 murder. We have no way and the Inquiry has no way of

6 verifying that unless you are prepared to give the

7 names?

8 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Logue has said he

9 is prepared to give the Inquiry the names if the

10 Inquiry thinks it is worth pursuing this matter; did

11 I understand you correctly, Mr Logue.

12 MR LAWSON: Well, he said even if the Inquiry

13 persuades him to do so.

14 MR TOOHEY: I have to say, Mr Lawson, I think

15 Mr Logue was rather led into this by the line of

16 questioning. That is not to suggest the questioning

17 was any way unfair or improper, but I think it has

18 developed through the questioning.

19 MR LAWSON: Sir, you are absolutely right.

20 I was going to come to that passage of his statement in

21 due course, but Mr Logue mentioned these people in the

22 context of another topic I was exploring with him. Be

23 that as it may, I am sorry if I interrupted Mr Clarke

24 who, I think, was about to say something.

25 MR CLARKE: I was about to say it is slightly


Page 63


1 academic. We do know who the names of these people are

2 as they were in what we know from Eversheds discussions

3 with this witness who they are.

4 MR LAWSON: You have already told the

5 Inquiry?

6 MR CLARKE: Yes.

7 MR LAWSON: Sorry, I would not have wasted

8 time had I known that.

9 Can I ask you this, sir, generally about

10 NICRA. It is right, is it, there was somewhat of a

11 lull in the activities of NICRA after 1969 and before

12 internment?

13 A. Well, I only joined NICRA in 1970 and I think

14 there was a lull prior to internment.

15 Q. Do you agree that the introduction of

16 internment gave what has been described as "a real shot

17 in the arm" to the civil rights movement, enabling it

18 to come back with a bang; you may not agree with the

19 precise words, but do you agree with that sentiment?

20 A. I believe that it was unthinkable for

21 something like internment to have been introduced and

22 for one not to confront it as NICRA did. There was a

23 real anger in the community and it was important that

24 that anger was channelled into non-violent means and

25 the complete withdrawal of consent by the citizens from


Page 64


1 the institutions was assisted in a non-violent manner

2 and NICRA provided an useful means of doing that.

3 Q. I am seeking your comment on what someone

4 else has said, but I will move on. Let me ask you

5 about this: Magilligan, and the march at Magilligan.

6 Was that a NICRA or NICRA approved demonstration?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You indicated in your evidence today that

9 your, that is the North Derry CRA's assurances to NICRA

10 would have been fully accepted?

11 A. That is right.

12 Q. So the march was approved by NICRA itself?

13 A. They were aware of it, and given endorsement

14 -- would have given an endorsement.

15 Q. So the march was held, was it, in accordance

16 with NICRA guidelines?

17 A. NICRA guidelines, in terms of the selection

18 of speakers, the stewarding, yes.

19 Q. Can you help as to this from your local

20 knowledge, the Andersonstown Civil Resistance Movement,

21 what was that?

22 A. I have no idea.

23 Q. No idea?

24 A. In terms of local knowledge, Andersonstown is

25 70, 80 miles away. It is the west of Belfast; we are


Page 65


1 in the north of Derry.

2 Q. They were invited to the march?

3 A. Were they?

4 Q. At Magilligan?

5 A. No-one was invited. There was ads placed in

6 the newspapers and everybody was encouraged to turn up.

7 Q. I just wonder as the Tribunal has a video

8 with a very, very large banner of that organisation;

9 you do not know who they are, though?

10 A. People were invited to bring their banners

11 and identify themselves and people regularly walked

12 behind their own banner.

13 Q. It was not just civil rights banners?

14 A. There were all banners, there were civil

15 rights banners. You said the Andersonstown Civil

16 Rights --

17 Q. Civil Resistance Movement; I just wondered if

18 you knew what it was?

19 A. No, I do not.

20 Q. Two other matters, then, in relation to

21 Magilligan: you indicate in your statement, if we

22 highlight the bottom part of page 8 at KL2. I will not

23 ask you to go back to it, having earlier in the

24 statement perceived the imperative nature of having to

25 get to Magilligan soon after it opened you remember


Page 66


1 telling the Tribunal about, you there say on the

2 penultimate paragraph on the screen:

3 "Our intention was to get as close to the

4 prison as possible"; do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. To do what?

7 A. To allow the internees to be aware of our

8 presence.

9 Q. What were you going to do when you got there?

10 A. We would probably have handed a letter of

11 protest and returned, like we did on our previous

12 occasions.

13 Q. That was all you wanted to do: turn up at the

14 prison, give them a letter of protest and go away

15 again?

16 A. Having demonstrated clearly public support

17 for -- public opposition to the introduction of

18 internment. I think you must understand, sir, at that

19 point Magilligan had to be confronted because not only

20 was it internment, but the setting up of Magilligan

21 indicated that for the Government it was their

22 intention to continue with internment; internment was

23 there to stay, it was not a short-term policy, so that

24 had to be confronted.

25 Q. Can I ask you about one further matter in


Page 67


1 relation to Magilligan: It arises in this way: if you

2 remember my learned friend Mr Clarke, Counsel for the

3 Inquiry, asked you about -- for your comment on the

4 suggestion of people seeking to get around the barbed

5 wire fence or barricade by going into the sea; do you

6 remember?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Your reaction was to say, well, that might be

9 what the army say?

10 A. I think I gave your learned friend Mr Clarke

11 and comprehensive answer on that in terms of the wire

12 coming down to the water -- the high water mark and

13 people trying to turn around, get beyond that point,

14 indeed into the water to do so.

15 Q. Can I ask for your assistance and your

16 commentary upon some contemporaneous material; it is

17 the last thing I want to ask you about. Would you

18 look, please, on the screen with me at L9, which, as

19 you can see is an article entitled "The Brutal

20 Soldiery" written by somebody called Simon Hoggart.

21 I can tell you it comes from the Guardian newspaper of

22 25th January 1972.

23 The passage I draw your attention and which

24 I invite your comment, can we look at the first column

25 on the left and start from, I think it is the third


Page 68


1 paragraph:

2 "The march at Magilligan ...".

3 By all means take your time to read it to

4 yourself. You will see the first two of the paragraphs

5 on the page refer to a suggestion that Colonel Welsh

6 offered tea and buns, rejected by Mr O'Kane, who led

7 the demonstrators along the muddy track three miles up

8 the beach.

9 Do you see that; does that ring a bell?

10 A. Yes, as does the massive foam generating

11 machine.

12 Q. Then, it continues:

13 "Here troops had unrolled a long roll of

14 barbed wire across the beach to stop the crowd getting

15 within view of the huts and watch towers"; is that

16 right?

17 A. That is right, as far as I recall.

18 Q. "Behind the wire were ranged a company of

19 Green Jackets, about 80 men of the First Battalion of

20 the Parachute Regiment, as well as about 80 police."

21 There were certainly Green Jackets, paras and

22 police there, were there not?

23 A. Yes, my recollection was that the

24 Green Jackets were in front and the paras were behind;

25 I cannot be sure.


Page 69


1 Q. Then this in particular:

2 "Trouble started when a small portion of the

3 crowd took advantage of the low tide to try to sneak

4 round the seaward end of the barbed wire coils. As

5 they did so paratroopers opened fire with volley after

6 volley of rubber bullets, hitting several demonstrators

7 who buckled up into the seawater, causing the crowd to

8 charge over to their help ..."

9 Then there is reference to hand-to-hand

10 fighting and batons, rubber bullets, et cetera being

11 used.

12 That is how that particular reporter

13 described the trouble starting. You were there; do you

14 agree with that?

15 A. I agree with a great deal of what is there.

16 The rubber bullets -- what he has left unsaid is that

17 the volley of rubber bullets that were fired were fired

18 as the people who ran towards the sea began to run from

19 the march towards the sea. They had not got to the sea

20 and they had not got round the wire or anything else.

21 Your soldiers panicked and started firing right away,

22 so that those people would be prevented from ever

23 getting round that side.

24 Q. Sir, the violence, if you like, began, you

25 agree with this, when some of the demonstrators


Page 70


1 indicated they were going to try to get round the

2 barrier?

3 A. They went into the sea to try to circumvent

4 the barbed wire.

5 Q. I think that is, yes, is it not?

6 Questioned by MR ELIAS

7 MR ELIAS: Mr Logue, would you accept that,

8 leaving aside the question of infiltration by the IRA

9 -- I do not suggest it in the sense of --

10 A. Can I ask who are you?

11 Q. My name is Elias and I act for a number of

12 former soldiers and military personnel. Leaving aside

13 the question of infiltration by IRA members of NICRA,

14 in the sense that they may have influenced the

15 organisation, either at Executive level or at any local

16 level, would you accept that within NICRA, either at

17 its Executive level or locally, there could have been

18 at the time we are discussing persons on committees and

19 active within NICRA who in fact were active IRA

20 members?

21 A. I really have to say to you, sir, that

22 I cannot believe that you say you leave aside

23 infiltration, I cannot believe that you are still

24 peddling this line, that there are IRA people or IRA

25 sympathisers on the Executive or holding any authority


Page 71


1 within the civil rights movement.

2 As I recall, the Cameron Commission said, and

3 I have written it down because I have seen this so

4 often:

5 "There was no sign that they were dominant or

6 in a position to control or direct the policy of

7 NICRA. There were no signs that the IRA were members

8 of the association."

9 Q. I peddle no line, sir, at all, I ask you a

10 question: you were not aware, you have told the

11 Tribunal a little earlier, if it be the case, that

12 Liam McMillen was active and a senior man in the IRA;

13 that is correct, is it not?

14 A. I said -- you have again said "if it be the

15 case". No-one has yet proved to me that Liam McMillen

16 -- I said to you that he signed up to -- I took

17 everyone at face value, I was inclusive and that

18 Liam McMillen was a signed-up person of the Civil

19 Rights Executive, committed to non-violence.

20 If Liam McMillen had at any stage or at any

21 time either acted violently or proposed violence,

22 I would have confronted him, I can assure you of that.

23 Q. By what means, to take that example, did he

24 sign up to non-violence?

25 A. By being a member of the Northern Ireland


Page 72


1 Civil Rights Executive, I assume, that he accepted the

2 constitution of that Executive.

3 Q. That assumption would have been made in any

4 case, would it, without further investigation of the

5 individual concerned or his or her background?

6 A. I think people's word was taken, yes.

7 Q. May I ask you about paragraph 48 of your

8 statement, quite a different matter, and about the shot

9 that you believe to have been, perhaps the duller sound

10 coming from the Free Derry Corner side. You were in

11 the ambulance at the time you hear that shot, were you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you have any idea of where that shot came

14 from, apart from saying the Free Derry Corner side of

15 the Rossville Flats?

16 A. None.

17 Q. Did you have any idea of how far away from

18 you the shot appeared to have been fired?

19 A. None, other than that I assume the sharper

20 shot was probably closer. I mean, I have no knowledge

21 of arms at all, so I cannot say, no.

22 Q. Could the shot, for example, have been from,

23 talking of the lower, of the duller sound shot, could

24 it for example have been from the Rossville Flats

25 itself?


Page 73


1 A. I think I made clear a number of times that

2 I do not believe for one second that there was anyone

3 firing from the Rossville Flats, otherwise the soldier

4 mentioned in my statement would have been a sitting

5 target, so I do not -- it never crossed my mind for a

6 second, I have never contemplated and I have never

7 accepted General Ford's and other agencies' suggestion

8 that there was anyone firing from Rossville Flats. It

9 would have been so easy to have shot the soldier that

10 I saw if that had been the case, so I do not think, in

11 relation to the ambulance, that it could have been

12 anywhere near there because the ambulance was right

13 beside Rossville Flats.

14 Q. So, apart from saying that it was south of

15 the ambulance, you cannot assist us further?

16 A. I said Free Derry Corner or beyond.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR CLARKE: Just two matters.

19 Could we have hotspot 11, please? This is a

20 picture taken recently of Glenfada Park North and you

21 can see that there is, on what is now the right-hand

22 side of the screen, a pram ramp. If I zoom slightly

23 you can see that in front of Glenfada Park itself there

24 is a low wall about five bricks high which runs

25 parallel to the block as it goes down towards Free


Page 74


1 Derry Corner.

2 As I understand your evidence, the soldier

3 whom you saw was somewhere just at the north of this

4 block, and you mentioned something, which I am afraid

5 I did not quite pick up, about his position in relation

6 to what I think you may have been referring to as this

7 small wall we see here; have I understood that

8 correctly?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. He was lying on the ground; was he close to

11 the wall, was any part of him on the wall?

12 A. The wall was a backdrop to him. I would not

13 have thought that he was more than a metre from the

14 wall and he was lying on the ground. My impression,

15 Mr Clarke, is that he had his elbows on the ground.

16 His head would have been higher, if you know what

17 I mean.

18 Q. But the wall was, as you say, a backdrop to

19 where he was?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The last matter I wanted to ask you --

22 LORD SAVILLE: I am wondering, if we take the

23 artist's panorama of the virtual reality, -- this,

24 Mr Logue, is partly modern photographer, but also

25 superimposing on the other side of the street an


Page 75


1 impression of the Rossville Street Flats. If we did a

2 complete 180 degrees swing round, you may or may not be

3 able to help us a little further on this question. It

4 was only an idea. There they are, they are the flats.

5 Swing on round. We can come back to the view that you

6 were shown. That is an impression of the barricade,

7 coming on round we come back to the picture Mr Clarke

8 showed you. I do not know whether that assists you in

9 any way to help us any more on the position of the

10 soldier who you say you saw?

11 A. Thank you, Chairman. What I think would be

12 of assistance would be to know, the diagonal across

13 from -- I think it is the second rather than the first,

14 the second flat on the first road where that came

15 across, was that the first or second balcony there,

16 that is what I really --

17 LORD SAVILLE: A photograph might possibly

18 show that. I was thinking of a general photograph

19 looking down on the Rossville Street Flats from which

20 one might be able to see across to the Glenfada side.

21 MR CLARKE: Yes, there is one somewhere.

22 There is a photograph taken from the flats, I cannot

23 for the moment remember where it is.

24 A. My recollection, Chairman, is that the flats

25 begin a little bit further down and are not directly


Page 76


1 opposite.

2 LORD SAVILLE: Perhaps, while we are looking

3 for the photograph, if we look at KL2.38, we have the

4 map. We have the map up at the moment, Mr Clarke. You

5 see where you have put your "C" on the map?

6 A. Yes.

7 LORD SAVILLE: The low wall we have just seen

8 in the photograph starts more or less immediately

9 behind that letter "C" and runs southwards down to the

10 rubble barricade as marked?

11 A. May I -- if we begin with the letter "A",

12 the top of block A, and you come down, still staying

13 within that box and you go directly across, then

14 diagonally across, comme ca, yeah, I think we are a

15 little further north than that. We are clearly not

16 talking of the soldier being under the first parapet,

17 therefore, of Glenfada Park, we are talking of either

18 the second or the third.

19 MR CLARKE: Yes, I follow. The best I can do

20 --

21 LORD SAVILLE: By "parapet" you mean balcony?

22 A. Balcony.

23 MR CLARKE: The best I can do is EP35.18:

24 this is a photograph that has been taken from the

25 Rossville Flats itself, though I suspect from a little


Page 77


1 further south to the position where you were, but it

2 does show the sort of view you get from a flat in --

3 A. But I think it is either the second or third

4 that we are looking at here, because first -- it is too

5 far north to be directly -- to be diagonally across

6 from Rossville.

7 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Hoyt has a couple

8 of suggestions for photographs.

9 MR HOYT: P204, P209.

10 LORD SAVILLE: P209 is possibly, looking at

11 the hard copy, a good one. That is the sort of

12 photograph I had in mind that may or may not help.

13 Does that help you at all, do you think?

14 A. Yes, well you take -- let us come down there

15 and come directly across, so I think we are looking

16 at -- yes, I would be looking more at the second.

17 LORD SAVILLE: That, I think, looking at the

18 second possibly, second balcony, that is to say. We

19 all appreciate you cannot necessarily be too exact, but

20 would the arrow you put on the screen here indicate as

21 best you can the position?

22 A. Where is Glenfada? This is Glenfada, or

23 this?. (Marked with a blue arrow).

24 LORD SAVILLE: The tip of your arrow is just

25 up against the eastern wall of Glenfada Park North?


Page 78


1 A. The second, the second balcony.

2 LORD SAVILLE: It might be worth keeping that

3 one.

4 MR CLARKE: Can we save that, please, and

5 give it the number KL2.42?

6 The only last thing I wanted to ask you,

7 Mr Logue, is this: in relation to Civil Rights

8 Associations, we see in the papers sometimes a

9 reference to North Derry and sometimes a reference to

10 Derry county.

11 Are they the same in this context?

12 A. They should not be, but as it turned out,

13 North Derry was much more active than South Derry and

14 we worked together and we tended to be, as I say, more

15 responsive and prompt. South Derry, insofar as it

16 operated, was much more Maghera, Magherafelt,

17 Castledawson, that part --

18 Q. Was there a North Derry Civil Rights

19 Association and a South Derry Civil Rights Association?

20 A. There was.

21 Q. If we see in the papers Derry county in the

22 context of civil rights, which one would it mean, or

23 would it be ambiguous?

24 A. I am not sure obviously, I cannot.

25 Q. If you cannot be sure, we cannot be sure


Page 79


1 either?

2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Logue, thank you very much

3 indeed for coming here to assist the Inquiry. Thank

4 you very much. It is mid-day, Mr Clarke, I think we

5 will stop now until ten to one, and I understand it is

6 Mr Morrison.

7 MR CLARKE: Yes.

8 (12.05 pm)

9 (The luncheon adjournment)

10 (12.55 pm)

11 MR CHARLES COLUMBA MORRISON, sworn

12 Questioned by MR RAWAT

13 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Morrison, if you look to

14 your right you will see who is addressing you. I am

15 the Chairman. The questions will come in the main from

16 the barristers who sit in front of me. I say this to

17 all the witnesses -- you have no doubt heard me say it

18 -- could you remember to keep your face reasonably

19 close to that microphone.

20 One other thing I would like to say, you

21 kindly supplied us this morning with a document you

22 have written. We have read it. We have decided to

23 treat it as part of your evidence, so it will appear,

24 in effect, as a further statement from you, attached to

25 your evidence. We have of course distributed copies of


Page 80


1 it to all the interested parties, and of course to the

2 media.

3 MR RAWAT: Mr Morrison, do you have a copy of

4 your statement to this Inquiry which you signed on 18th

5 July 1999?

6 A. Yes, I have.

7 Q. There was also a supplementary statement you

8 made which was signed on 23rd March this year?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. We have also seen the statement you have made

11 of today's date?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are the contents of all these statements true

14 to the best of your knowledge and belief?

15 A. Yes, they are.

16 Q. As you can see on the screen in front of you,

17 the first page of the first statement, which is

18 AM427.1, is now just there on the screen. We have all

19 had an opportunity to read through all three of your

20 statements. I today just want to ask you some

21 questions about some aspects of those statements.

22 Looking at the page that is on the screen,

23 paragraphs 1 and 2, what you say there is at the time

24 of Bloody Sunday you were both on the Executive of the

25 Derry Civil Rights Association and also on the


Page 81


1 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And you had joined the Derry CRA in 1968 on

4 your return to this city and following your meeting

5 Brigid Bond and in your time after joining you say you

6 had been involved in helping to organise a lot of the

7 earlier civil rights marches?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Acting mostly as a steward?

10 A. Steward.

11 Q. We know in your supplemental statement of

12 March of this year, you make the point that internment

13 represented the rebirth of Derry CRA. Are we to take

14 from that that there had been a period prior to

15 Bloody Sunday when no marches had been put on?

16 A. Yes. I worked locally with Brigid mostly on

17 housing issues and normally just affecting the people

18 in the area, and would have helped out doing these

19 particular things. When the violence came about,

20 everybody was quite concerned and scared, including

21 myself, and there was the general feeling that it would

22 have been foolish to take people on the streets at that

23 particular time.

24 Q. So, had it been a period of about 18 months

25 before Bloody Sunday when there had been no marches


Page 82


1 organised by the Derry CRA?

2 A. I remember a march in Magilligan, not the big

3 march, you talked of one -- the very small, or meeting,

4 a very small one. On recollection I just could not be

5 specific, but I do not think the activity was of any

6 significance.

7 Q. If we could now go to that supplemental

8 statement, AM427.15 -- highlight paragraphs 1 to 4,

9 please. This statement was made to deal, as you say at

10 the top, specifically with the organisation of NICRA

11 and the organisation of stewards on the day and I hope

12 that I do not unfairly summarise it if I say that the

13 point you make is that you have very little

14 recollection of how the march was organised and you

15 also make the point that you did not attend many of the

16 meetings because you were at work?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. What you do say in paragraph 4, in response

19 to the statement of Michael Havord, is that you were

20 not lead steward on Bloody Sunday?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. I do not know -- Mr Havord gave evidence

23 yesterday and he corrected that aspect of his

24 statement?

25 A. No, I did not.


Page 83


1 Q. He confirmed that you were not the chief

2 steward. What you say is that the chief steward was a

3 Mr Durey, who has now passed away?

4 A. Yes, in the section of the march that I was

5 on that day --

6 MR ELIAS: May I interrupt for a moment?

7 Sir, we do not have, I think it is true of all those on

8 this side of the room, the supplementary statement.

9 LORD SAVILLE: The one that is on the screen

10 at the moment?

11 MR ELIAS: Yes.

12 LORD SAVILLE: I do not know what has

13 happened, Mr Elias, it is certainly in our bundles.

14 MR ELIAS: Could we perhaps, while the

15 witness is giving his evidence, be provided with

16 copies?

17 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, and please let me know if

18 this omission is causing you any difficulties.

19 MR RAWAT: Perhaps what I will do is go back

20 to Mr Morrison's first statement and deal with that

21 aspect of his evidence.

22 If we could go back, please, to AM427.1 and

23 paragraph 4. In that statement, which is the first

24 statement you made to the Inquiry, you deal there with

25 what contact there may have been between Brigid Bond


Page 84


1 and first of all the IRA and secondly the RUC. If we

2 deal with the IRA, you say that:

3 "I know that prior to the march on

4 Bloody Sunday, Brigid received assurances from both the

5 Provisional and Official IRA that they would not be

6 attending the march."

7 You say later -- you were not actually

8 present at any meetings. Were you told by Brigid Bond

9 before Bloody Sunday that she had received assurances?

10 A. With the passage of time, it is difficult to

11 be accurate, but I was there when these comments were

12 passed, yeah, and I am sure that, possibly it did come

13 from Brigid.

14 Q. Were they comments made at a Derry CRA

15 meeting?

16 A. It would have been probably in the house,

17 Brigid's house, because I was always calling in there,

18 to the house, you know. There was a general feeling

19 that the civil rights people were just going on their

20 own to the march and --

21 Q. If I could ask you to speak up a little bit?

22 A. Very sorry.

23 Q. You say it was a general feeling?

24 A. Yeah, that there would be no paramilitaries

25 around the march.


Page 85


1 Q. Did Mrs Bond say she had spoken to both wings

2 of the IRA directly?

3 A. I cannot be specific that she actually said

4 those words, as I say, because of the passage of time,

5 but I am aware that that was the general comments that

6 were going about at that time.

7 Q. Although you had not organised, or the CRA

8 had not organised a march for some time, they had

9 organised marches in the past. Would this Derry CRA

10 have tried to obtain assurances from the IRA in

11 relation to those previous marches?

12 A. I have no knowledge of that, no.

13 Q. Let us go on to the dealings with the RUC

14 Chief, you say a person to whom Brigid Bond was quite

15 close. This was Chief Superintendent Lagan, was it

16 not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You say there:

19 "... it was agreed to move the meeting at

20 the end of the march to Free Derry Corner in order to

21 try and avoid a confrontation with the army on

22 William Street."

23 Was that decision to move the meeting made

24 before Bloody Sunday?

25 A. It is difficult to really answer that,


Page 86


1 because I cannot refer to a specific meeting, but the

2 opinion was -- certainly my opinion was -- if the army

3 had a barrier there was no chance of getting into the

4 city centre. Free Derry Corner was the logical place

5 to go and to direct the people there.

6 I certainly can say that NICRA was a

7 profoundly peaceful organisation and if there would

8 have been any possibility of serious confrontation,

9 I certainly would have had no part of that, or

10 encouraged that in any way.

11 Q. Although we cannot see it in the highlighted

12 part, it is a point that you make in paragraph 5 of

13 your statement. That is a paragraph we have all had

14 the chance to read.

15 Can I move on to Bloody Sunday itself. If we

16 could have AM427.2 and highlight, please, paragraphs 6

17 to 8. We are moving now to the actual day,

18 Mr Morrison?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Picking up paragraph 6, you say there:

21 "I think that one of the reasons why the

22 march on Bloody Sunday was so big was that the

23 population of Derry was angered by the policy of

24 internment."

25 Can we take it that the CRA expected a large


Page 87


1 turnout of people?

2 A. Yes, I would assume, given the feelings, even

3 personal friends of mine and many people talked in the

4 community, internment had a terrible effect on the

5 people, they were so angry about it.

6 Q. And you joined the march up in the Creggan,

7 as you say in paragraph 7. Had you been asked to be

8 a steward prior to the day itself?

9 A. As far as I can recall, yes. I normally

10 would have taken up roles like that.

11 Q. When you were up -- not Creggan, I think in

12 Bishop's Field, did you see Kevin McCorry up there?

13 A. I cannot specifically recall seeing him,

14 again because of the passage of time, but I have no

15 doubt Kevin was there organising with the loudhailer.

16 I reasonably could say yes, that would be correct.

17 Q. If it helps, we do have some video footage

18 which shows Mr McCorry using a loudhailer at the start

19 of the march and he has accepted that he was chief

20 steward on the march. What I want to ask you about is

21 where you say in paragraph 7:

22 "It was a point of principle to always try to

23 get to the Guildhall, but we fully expected that

24 William Street and the surrounding area would be

25 blocked off. As I have explained, the stewards on the


Page 88


1 march were under instruction to try to direct the crowd

2 to Free Derry Corner and away from the barrier on

3 William Street."

4 As a steward, did you get those instructions?

5 A. I know there was a general feeling we would

6 not be going to the Guildhall and I was somewhat into

7 the march, I was not at the very start of the march, so

8 I would not be aware of the instructions the stewards

9 got at the very front of the march. I am sure they

10 were --

11 Q. As far as you were concerned, it was simply

12 that you were not likely to go to the Guildhall and

13 would end up at Free Derry Corner?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Let us move on, in that case, to paragraph

16 10. If we could have paragraphs 8 to 10, please. And

17 you say in paragraph 8, picking up the last two

18 sentences, where you were particularly close to the

19 front and you were with your wife Kathleen:

20 "I was wearing a steward's armband and trying

21 to keep the crowd orderly and moving."

22 If I pick it up at paragraph 10, what it says

23 there is:

24 "As the lorry turned [this is turning into

25 Rossville Street from William Street] I could see that


Page 89


1 not all of the crowd were following it south on to

2 Rossville Street. A small group of youths had decided

3 to continue east along William Street.

4 "As a steward, I decided to make my way down

5 to the barrier to try to persuade them to turn around

6 and go to Free Derry Corner."

7 Was that a decision you made yourself at that

8 time?

9 A. No, on reflection I remember Kevin McCorry

10 with the loudhailer calling for stewards to come down

11 to the area, I remember that on reflection now.

12 Q. How many stewards can you remember going down

13 to William Street and the barrier?

14 A. I cannot be specific, but I left meself to go

15 down.

16 Q. It was only Kevin McCorry that was using

17 a loudhailer?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Picking up on the next page, paragraph 11,

20 you describe there what was happening at barrier 14, as

21 we call it, when you arrived. We have already had

22 quite a bit of evidence about what was going on,

23 I really want to ask you what stewards were doing.

24 If I summarise this paragraph: you believe

25 that there were 100 to 150 people down there and that


Page 90


1 by the time you arrived with Kevin McCorry, a small

2 riot had already broken out. You describe that as "not

3 particularly aggressive" and simply throwing stones and

4 shouting and Mr McCorry began using his loudhailer.

5 Can I show you a photograph, P1033? Do you

6 recognise anyone in that photograph?

7 A. I think I recognise one person.

8 Q. Sorry, I did not hear you?

9 A. I think I recognise one person here, who ...

10 Q. Who is that?

11 A. Brigid Bond's son, Freddy.

12 Q. Would you like to mark the screen and point

13 him out?

14 A. (Marked with blue arrow).

15 Q. That is the person with the grey jacket?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. Could I have control of the screen, please?

18 Do you know who this person is? (Marked with yellow

19 arrow).

20 A. That is Kevin McCorry.

21 Q. You do not see yourself in that photograph at

22 all, do you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you arrived at the barrier and there was

25 a small riot, what were the soldiers doing?


Page 91


1 A. The soldiers were standing behind the barrier

2 which was across William Street and there was sort of

3 a buffer zone between the soldiers and the crowd.

4 Q. Was that buffer zone the stewards?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. If we could go back to your page AM427.3,

7 highlighting paragraphs 11 to 14, please, you have told

8 us, I think initially when you arrived, if my recall is

9 right, that the soldiers were not actually doing

10 anything in response to the shouting and the

11 stone-throwing; is that right?

12 A. That would be correct.

13 Q. Then they did start, as you say in paragraph

14 12, firing rubber bullets?

15 A. Rubber bullets or gas.

16 Q. You say at 13 that shortly after you arrived

17 the army brought in water cannon with dye in the

18 water. Was it at this point that the stewards left the

19 scene?

20 A. I think when the water cannon was actually

21 put into use, and that included me personally, I had no

22 desire to get soaked, it sorta just neutralised the

23 situation, people just filtered away after that.

24 Q. Just before the water cannon came on to the

25 scene, how many people were there at the barrier, how


Page 92


1 many civilians were there at the barrier?

2 A. I would say round about 100 to 150 again.

3 Q. After the water cannon had been used, how

4 many were left?

5 A. Well, I think most people, including meself,

6 had just decided to go back to Free Derry Corner, you

7 know, it just dispersed the crowd, basically, you know.

8 Q. As you say, you made the decision to go back

9 to Free Derry Corner. If we could pick up paragraph 15

10 and 16, you say there that you turned into

11 Rossville Street and you got as far as the start of the

12 wasteground, which you mark as point B on your map, and

13 then you heard a commotion behind you, the revving of

14 engines, and you looked back to see a number of army

15 vehicles driving very quickly towards you and you

16 noticed a Pig at the front of the line of vehicles.

17 You began to run and the rest of the crowd

18 also began to run at the same time?

19 A. Yeah, yeah, very quickly running, yeah.

20 Q. How big was the crowd at the time?

21 A. When I came into Rossville Street I assume it

22 was the tail end of the march, or people were mostly on

23 looking. There would have been a few hundred people

24 running into the Bogside area.

25 Q. If we could just move over to AM427.4, you


Page 93


1 say there in paragraph 16, which continues that:

2 "The first Pig seemed to stop and I heard

3 the screech of the metal as the back doors flew open

4 and a number of soldiers jump out."

5 In the next couple of paragraphs you discuss

6 both where the army vehicles went and what the soldiers

7 did. If we can first of all take what happened to the

8 vehicles and deal with that. If we could actually

9 highlight the top of the page, including paragraph 18.

10 What you say, Mr Morrison is:

11 "That first Pig seemed to stop and soldiers

12 jumped out."

13 In paragraph 18 you also mention that you saw

14 another vehicle, "which I believe was a jeep". Are you

15 sure that it was a jeep?

16 A. Again, with the passage of time I am not

17 100 per cent sure. Throughout all of this I have tried

18 to keep away from watching the TV footage to let it

19 influence me, and that is the difficulty that I have,

20 I did not want to be influenced just by any footage

21 that I had seen.

22 Q. Perhaps I could try and shorten things by

23 asking you this: in terms of where the army vehicles

24 turned up, are you certain in your recollection?

25 A. Could you repeat that again, please?


Page 94


1 Q. Let us go to your map, AM427.13. If I could

2 have control of the screen, please. You have marked on

3 this map point B, which was the point at which you had

4 arrived in Rossville Street when you heard the revving

5 of engines. Point C is when you reached -- it is in

6 the area of Eden Place. That is when the first Pig

7 reached you and you ran off across the wasteground.

8 You say in relation to that Pig that it seemed to stop

9 and you heard the screech of the metal as the back

10 doors flew open.

11 Where did it stop?

12 A. Can I actually touch the screen?

13 Q. Yes, please.

14 A. I would say it stopped round about here

15 because I was running at the time, I was running in

16 tandem with it, but I was going at an angle.

17 (Indicating).

18 Q. If we could remove my arrows that I have

19 marked and if Mr Morrison could have control, if you

20 could mark where you say that first vehicle ended up?

21 A. (Marked with mauve arrow).

22 Q. If we take the second vehicle that you

23 mention, that was the jeep or a vehicle you believe was

24 a jeep, which you have marked on the map as being at

25 point D. What I want to ask you is whether, given the


Page 95


1 passage of time, you are certain about where these

2 vehicles ended up?

3 A. Yeah, in that general area there.

4 (Indicating).

5 Q. The reason I ask is because we have had quite

6 a lot of evidence and we have some photographs which

7 show where the army vehicles were and the evidence is

8 that in the line of vehicles there were two Pigs at the

9 start and the first one, if I could show you a

10 photograph. If I could have control of that screen,

11 the first one turned off Pilot Row. That ended up

12 somewhere around here. The Pig behind that ended up

13 just at the mouth or just into the Rossville Flats car

14 park. You did not see any army vehicles there, did

15 you? (Marked with turquoise, blue and yellow arrows).

16 A. I have seen footage of army vehicles here in

17 the blue section, the light blue section.

18 Q. That does not accord with your recollection?

19 A. When the army vehicles came, I ran into the

20 back of the sector flats and kept looking back as they

21 were coming and my recollection was, yes, the light

22 blue area, the vehicle did end up eventually there,

23 because I was behind the flats at that stage.

24 Q. Where I have marked with a sort of turquoise

25 arrow your recollection now is that one of the army


Page 96


1 vehicles could have ended up there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Perhaps I can shorten it by showing you one

4 photograph, if we could have P281. Mr Morrison, if you

5 see the first Pig there, that is the one that was in

6 the car park of the Rossville Flats and just behind --

7 it is a little difficult to work it out on this

8 photograph, there is the second Pig that was at the

9 Eden Place/Chamberlain Street junction.

10 Can we turn back to your page AM427.4, and go

11 back now to what the soldiers were actually doing.

12 Again, if we could have highlighted the top half down

13 to paragraph 19, please. That first Pig that you saw,

14 you say in that top paragraph that you are sure that at

15 least two soldiers jumped out; is that right?

16 A. Yes, yes, that is right.

17 Q. You go on to say that "the soldiers were

18 panning out all over the place"; are you referring to

19 soldiers from other army vehicles?

20 A. Trying to get my thoughts back to the day,

21 I can recall soldiers panning out, but I would not be

22 too sure if it was from this exact vehicle.

23 Q. So it could have been from other vehicles?

24 A. It could have been, yeah.

25 Q. These soldiers who were panning out, what


Page 97


1 were they trying to do?

2 A. I noticed that they were in the firing

3 position, they were taking up firing positions.

4 Q. Did you see any soldiers who seemed to be

5 trying to arrest people?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you conscious of any soldiers firing

8 rubber bullets?

9 A. No.

10 Q. If we go back to the two soldiers that you

11 were sure jumped out of that first Pig, in reference to

12 the first one, you say:

13 "I focused on one in particular. This

14 soldier moved to the east side of the Pig. He dropped

15 down on one knee and took up a full firing position,

16 aiming his rifle south along Rossville Street. I am

17 not sure whether he was aiming at the rubble barricade

18 which ran across Rossville Street between

19 Glenfada Park North and block 1 of the Rossville Flats,

20 or actually into the Rossville Flats car park."

21 You then mention another soldier was standing

22 with his gun to his shoulder. You are sure that

23 soldier who was on one knee and in the firing position

24 was aiming in that direction?

25 A. Yes, I got the impression that he was


Page 98


1 sighting that direction, yeah.

2 Q. Although you were running in the direction of

3 the car park at this time, were there still people,

4 ordinary people on the wasteground running behind you?

5 A. Oh, there would have been people behind me,

6 yeah.

7 Q. The other soldier standing with his gun to

8 his shoulder, where was he?

9 A. From my recollection I clearly seen the man

10 to the left of the vehicle and I would not be exactly

11 sure if the other soldier joined him or he was looking

12 round the other side of the vehicle.

13 Q. That other soldier was also by that first

14 Pig?

15 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

16 Q. He was standing with his gun to his shoulder?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. What kind of gun are you referring to?

19 A. It was the army issue at that time, I think

20 they were called SLRs.

21 Q. It was not a rubber bullet gun?

22 A. No, no.

23 Q. You go on in paragraph 17 to talk about the

24 first live shot that you heard that day, and you say

25 you saw the first soldier, the one on his knee, take up


Page 99


1 his firing position and as the shot rang out, you heard

2 a cracking noise and saw the soldier's rifle kick back

3 and knew it was him who fired the shot.

4 Can we be clear, you looked back and you saw

5 that soldier's rifle jerk?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Was it aimed above the heads of the crowd?

8 A. Um, from his position I could not say if he

9 was aiming up or down, but he was in the general

10 direction of the sight of his rifle, if you take my

11 point.

12 Q. You did not actually see anybody fall at that

13 time?

14 A. No, no, no, I went to the back of the flats.

15 Q. It was fired at the fleeing crowd and with

16 other soldiers panning out?

17 A. In the general direction of the crowd.

18 Q. You go on in paragraph 19 to say that as you

19 ran towards the car park and the first shot rang out,

20 people threw themselves on the ground and others dived

21 for cover, but after that first shot the shooting

22 seemed to be continuous. That continuous shooting,

23 when it started, had you already reached the car park?

24 A. I first went to the opening between the

25 sector flats to the left, which would be to the, the


Page 100


1 Derry wall side.

2 Q. Had you already actually got into the car

3 park when that continuous shooting started?

4 A. I was running very quickly, yes.

5 Q. How many shots did you hear?

6 A. It just appeared to me to be continuous and

7 I was concentrating on getting through the flats to

8 safety on the other side.

9 Q. You go on in your statement -- we will get to

10 it in a moment -- to say where you went whilst in the

11 car park and how you got out of the car park, but did

12 the firing continue all the time you were in the

13 Rossville Flats car park?

14 A. Yeah, I heard continuous shooting, yes.

15 Q. You say:

16 "All the shots I could hear were being fired

17 from behind me to the north, in the area of the

18 Rossville Street and the wasteground. All the shooting

19 I heard was SLR army fire and having lived in Derry

20 throughout that time I was fully able to pick out the

21 sounds which the different weapons made."

22 So, the shooting is coming from behind you,

23 were you able to tell how far away the shooting was?

24 A. I knew it was in the general direction where

25 the vehicles were and on the Rossville Street area,


Page 101


1 around there, I could tell.

2 MR RAWAT: If we could highlight paragraphs

3 20 and 21 --

4 MR TOOHEY: Just before you do, Mr Rawat,

5 could I ask you, Mr Morrison, you have just answered

6 some questions about the firing that you heard. I am

7 not clear where you were at that point: were you still

8 in Rossville Street?

9 A. No, I was in behind the flats, running.

10 MR TOOHEY: When you say "behind", in the

11 courtyard side?

12 A. Yeah, inside the courtyard and running.

13 MR TOOHEY: You entered the courtyard and you

14 were running; in which direction?

15 A. I was running to the left-hand side, there

16 was a big opening there to escape, to get on the other

17 side of the flats.

18 MR TOOHEY: Would you mind clarifying

19 "left-hand side" by reference to the map, please?

20 MR RAWAT: Perhaps we could try and do it

21 with a photograph. Before we do that, you describe in

22 these two paragraphs the route you took. You say you

23 decided to make your way towards the biggest gap, the

24 one between blocks 2 and 3. Then in paragraph 21, when

25 you reached that gap, it was full of people and so you


Page 102


1 started crawling to a small wall in the flats car park,

2 which ran parallel to block 2 and started to move

3 towards the gap between blocks 1 and 2. Keeping that

4 in mind, could we have P205 on the screen, please.

5 That is the Rossville Street car park. If

6 I could have control. There is the gap between blocks

7 2 and 3; there is the gap between 1 and 2 and there is

8 a small wall running parallel to block 2. If we could

9 now remove those arrows and if Mr Morrison could be

10 given control.

11 Mr Morrison, remembering you have told us you

12 heard a first shot and that was, if I remember rightly,

13 before you actually reached the car park?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. You then heard a continuous set of shots.

16 Can you mark on that photograph where you were when you

17 heard those shots, those continuous shots?

18 A. I would have been in this area running

19 towards here. (Indicating).

20 Q. As you say, am I right in then thinking that

21 finding you could not get through blocks 2 and 3, that

22 was the small wall that you crawled behind?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If we could go back to AM427.4, in paragraph

25 21, you say that you saw Bishop Daly crouching down


Page 103


1 somewhere in the middle of the car park "although I do

2 not remember exactly what he was doing". Your

3 recollection, you cannot help with whether Bishop Daly

4 was with anybody at that time?

5 A. No, there was a lot of people -- when I got

6 to the first opening of block 2, there was so many

7 people, it was like a corkscrew, everybody had just

8 stopped and it would have been in -- behind the flats

9 or quite a lot of time, because I was afraid to get out

10 or to get up. So I would have been there for, not

11 exactly long, but I am sure it was quite a time, in

12 that area.

13 Q. You say at the tail end of that paragraph:

14 "I think I also saw Mickey Bridge."

15 Was that in the car park itself?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Perhaps if I quickly show you a photograph,

18 P518. The figure on the left-hand side of the screen

19 is Mr Bridge; would that have been the kind of area you

20 would have seen him in?

21 A. It would have been further in towards the

22 flats and there would have been other people around

23 when I seen Mickey Bridge, yes.

24 Q. When you say further in towards the flats?

25 A. Closer.


Page 104


1 Q. Closer to the block 1?

2 A. To the wall area, yeah.

3 Q. To block 1 that we see on the screen?

4 A. No, the central block.

5 Q. Block 2, closer to where you were?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. If we could go back again to 427.5, highlight

8 the top part, including paragraph 22. You say:

9 "My main attention was focused on the

10 soldiers who were by now standing at the northern

11 entrance to the car park with their guns raised and

12 I saw the kick-back impact of firing."

13 You actually saw soldiers at the car park

14 entrance firing?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. You then say in paragraph 22:

17 "A number of people on the balconies of the

18 three blocks of flats shouting down ..."

19 Did you see anything being thrown from the

20 balconies?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No bottles, no stones?

23 A. No.

24 Q. If we go back now to P205, when you saw the

25 soldiers at the northern end of the car park you would


Page 105


1 have been behind the small wall?

2 A. I would have been in that general area.

3 Q. Would you like to mark on this screen, if you

4 are given control, where those soldiers were?

5 A. It would have been around this area. (Marked

6 with blue arrow).

7 Q. Can you recall how many soldiers there were?

8 A. Not specifically, numberwise. I am sure that

9 there was three or four perhaps, but I could not be

10 100 per cent.

11 Q. And you cannot say where they were

12 distributed?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So, the blue arrow that you have marked

15 simply shows --

16 A. The general area.

17 Q. -- the general area, so that is really just

18 three or four soldiers at the mouth of the car park; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes, that is correct, sorry.

21 Q. I do not think there is any need to save

22 that. If we go back to AM427.5, paragraph 23 down to

23 the bottom, please. What happened then was that you

24 say you managed to get through the gap between blocks 2

25 and 3; did you mean blocks 2 and 3 or blocks 1 and 2?


Page 106


1 A. To the original block that I tried to get

2 through.

3 Q. So you went back on yourself and got out

4 through that way?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. What you then did was ran south to

7 a passageway which runs along the eastern side of

8 Joseph Place?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There were quite a lot of people in that

11 passageway. Were they all trying to move south up

12 towards Free Derry Corner, along the passageway?

13 A. Yeah, and a lot of people were crouching and

14 staying there, they were not moving on.

15 Q. You say there that people told you to keep

16 down because there was shooting coming from the walls?

17 A. Yeah, some people were saying that, yeah.

18 Q. You then made your way along that passageway,

19 did you not?

20 A. Yeah, and I stayed there for some time as

21 well.

22 Q. How long did you stay there?

23 A. I cannot be specific, but until I felt

24 reasonably safe to move.

25 Q. Did you feel safe when all the shooting had


Page 107


1 stopped?

2 A. Yes, yes, yes.

3 Q. In the time you were in that passageway

4 crouching, did you yourself hear any shots that

5 appeared to come from the city walls?

6 A. No.

7 Q. To finish off, what you did was then exit

8 between the two blocks of Joseph Place and make your

9 way to Brigid Bond's house?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. If I could now go back to paragraph 5 of this

12 statement, which is an AM427.1, what you say in that

13 paragraph was that subsequently to this, to

14 Bloody Sunday, you were active in collecting witness

15 statements from people who had been on the march. We

16 have a number of statements in the bundle of papers

17 distributed to the parties which show that you

18 witnessed a number of statements.

19 We also have had quite a bit of evidence

20 about how those statements were taken. Would it be

21 right to say that Brigid Bond was the main organiser

22 between the taking of statements?

23 A. Yes, that would be correct.

24 Q. Was it Derry CRA that really did all the

25 work?


Page 108


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was NICRA involved at all?

3 A. Um, I remember Brigid giving instructions to

4 go down and take the statements of the people coming in

5 and they were, they were for collection by NICRA and

6 the NCCL to eventually get all the statements, that is

7 what I was told.

8 Q. I wanted to deal with one of the statements

9 that you took, which is that of a Mr Meehan. If we

10 could have on the screen side by side, pages AM389.4

11 and then AM389.6. What we have there is on one side

12 the handwritten version of Mr Meehan's statement, which

13 we see at the bottom says:

14 "Witness: Charles Morrison"; is that your

15 signature?

16 A. It is, yes.

17 Q. But the handwriting that forms the body of

18 that statement, is that your handwriting?

19 A. It is, yes -- no, no, it is not, it is not,

20 no.

21 Q. Can you help us with how this statement would

22 have been taken?

23 A. I write to a similar fashion of this, as what

24 is on the screen. What happened: people came in to the

25 room and they sat down and whatever the people said


Page 109


1 I would have taken down. I would not have been an

2 experienced statement-writer, I must admit, at that

3 time, but I would just have taken down what the people

4 said to me.

5 Q. In that case what seems to have happened is

6 that somebody else wrote it and you simply witnessed

7 it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So were there some statements that you

10 witnessed where the witness themselves wrote out their

11 recollection of the events of the day?

12 A. My recollection at the time, that I would

13 have written most of the statements coming in that were

14 taken.

15 Q. The reason I have shown you this,

16 Mr Morrison, was out of fairness, because Mr Meehan has

17 come along and given evidence to the Inquiry. For the

18 transcript, it was on Day 77. He disputed the contents

19 of his statement which you had witnessed, and in

20 particular what he disputed was the first part of it,

21 where it says that he was in the car park before they

22 moved in and the soldiers jumped out and opened fire

23 for no particular reason. He said he had not said

24 anything of the sort. I wanted to give you a chance to

25 comment on that particular aspect of this statement?


Page 110


1 A. If it appeared in the statement, Mr Meehan

2 had written the statement and I had witnessed it.

3 Q. Were you, as a statement-taker, ever given

4 instructions to leave anything out?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. Sir, I understand that the supplementary

7 statement has now been distributed. I hope my learned

8 friends have had a chance to read through it. What

9 I really want to do is simply go back to the Derry

10 CRA. I can deal with that, I hope, very quickly. Can

11 we have on the screen GEN5.22.2.

12 If I can explain, Mr Morrison: what this is

13 is a page from a magazine or pamphlet called "New

14 Reality", which was the organ of the Derry Civil Rights

15 Association. This pamphlet is dated 25th September

16 1971. The only reason I have put it up on the screen

17 is because it gives the officer board of Derry CRA. We

18 have confirmed most of the individuals who were on the

19 committee of Derry CRA. I want to read out a portion

20 of it to you. It is not legible on the screen, so --

21 the sentence which begins:

22 "Today the fight continues with the release

23 of the internees and the abolition of the Special

24 Powers Act and today's Committee of Chairman Mr Gerry

25 Doherty ..."


Page 111


1 Do you remember Mr Doherty at all?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. That was Gerry "The Bird" Doherty, was it

4 not?

5 A. They called him "Gerry the Bird", yeah.

6 Q. "Vice Chairman, Mr Johnny Bond; secretary,

7 Mrs Brigid Bond."

8 Do you remember Mr Bond as Chairman?

9 A. Johnny Bond, yes.

10 Q. At the time of Bloody Sunday was he the

11 Chairman?

12 A. I would assume so. I have no definite

13 recollection of times and meetings and things like

14 that.

15 Q. The secretary is there listed as Mrs Brigid

16 Bond. But then it also says the "Treasurer, Mr C

17 Morrison", we take that to be you; were you the

18 treasurer?

19 A. I would have been, yeah.

20 Q. Were you still the treasurer at the time of

21 Bloody Sunday?

22 A. I cannot definitely say that, I do not know.

23 Q. Finally, if I could have GEN5.7 and 5.8 on

24 the screen side by side. What you have on the screen

25 in front of you, Mr Morrison, is a document which is


Page 112


1 actually a NICRA document. It is from the Vice

2 Chairman of NICRA to the NICRA organiser and it is

3 dated 1st December 1969. Why it is of interest is

4 because it gives a list of new membership applications

5 from the Derry area. It mentions Gerry O'Doherty as

6 "the moving spirit in Derry".

7 Although we know who was on the committee at

8 the time of Bloody Sunday, it would be helpful to know

9 how many people were actually just ordinary members of

10 Derry CRA. Before we go through this document, do you

11 have any recollection of how many people there were who

12 were just ordinary members?

13 A. No, I would have no specific numbers in my

14 head. I find it really hard to remember how many

15 ordinary members there were.

16 Q. Looking at the document, bearing in mind it

17 is 1969, are there any names there of people who were

18 still involved in Derry CRA at the time of

19 Bloody Sunday?

20 A. (Pause). I think the name Tony O'Doherty

21 means something to me.

22 Q. As someone who might have been involved?

23 A. Who might have been a steward on

24 Bloody Sunday.

25 Q. A steward on the march itself?


Page 113


1 A. And McMenamin, 13 Milroy Gardens. I am not

2 sure it is Mr McMenamin or his wife Suzy.

3 Q. It looks as though Suzy has been scratched

4 out, I think "Mrs" may have been written in manuscript?

5 A. Yeah, Suzy, yeah.

6 Q. Was she a steward on the march?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was her husband a steward on the march?

9 A. I think he may have been, I think he may have

10 been.

11 Q. To try and summarise it, the two names that

12 you recollect from this document are Tony O'Doherty and

13 then a Mr McMenamin, and the reason you recall them is

14 because they might have been stewards on the march?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. Thank you, those are all the questions

17 I have.

18 Questioned by MR KENNEDY

19 MR KENNEDY: Mr Morrison, my name is Kennedy

20 and I represent Michael Bridge and Michael Bradley.

21 You have indicated to the Tribunal that you were

22 involved in NICRA from about October 1968. You have

23 indicated also that at an early stage when you were at

24 a NICRA meeting in Belfast you were arrested and

25 detained for that day; is that right?


Page 114


1 A. What happened, I remember I had driven Brigid

2 up to the meeting and after it we went to Ann Hope's

3 house for a cup of tea and the house was raided and we

4 were taken to a police station or barracks.

5 Q. Were you told why you were arrested?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever find out why you were arrested

8 on that occasion?

9 A. (Inaudible).

10 Q. Between 1968 and Bloody Sunday, would you

11 have attended many marches with NICRA or on behalf of

12 NICRA?

13 A. Most marches in the city, I would have went

14 along, yeah.

15 Q. Can you give us an estimate of how many or

16 how often?

17 A. No. I can tell you that most marches in the

18 city I would have went to.

19 Q. Was there a march every week or a march every

20 month; how regular were they?

21 A. There would have been a lot sorta street

22 corner meetings and things like that which were not

23 marches I would have attended, but I just do not have

24 the figures of marches or --

25 Q. But they were regular marches?


Page 115


1 A. I was interested in what was going on and

2 I would have went and listened to the people who were

3 speaking.

4 Q. You have indicated in paragraph 3 that in

5 1969 there was a change and a new generation of

6 Catholics who were more interested, with a strong

7 desire for justice and demanding their basic civil

8 rights. Did that mean a change in direction at that

9 time, did you feel?

10 A. It was the general feeling of the younger

11 people that, you know, they wanted a better life and

12 they just were not going to take discrimination any

13 more. They wanted house, they wanted jobs.

14 Q. Did they become in any way more aggressive?

15 A. Aggressive in the sense that they wanted to

16 protest.

17 Q. Did they condone violence in any way with

18 that increase in aggression?

19 A. Obviously there were a number of young people

20 who would have got involved in stone-throwing, but as

21 regards people like myself and close friends we were

22 just totally opposed to violence, we did not see any

23 purpose for it.

24 Q. So the movement remained opposed to violence?

25 A. Absolutely.


Page 116


1 Q. In paragraph 5 you refer to the armband, and

2 you were concerned it would make you a target; had you

3 any grounds for that belief, did you believe as a NICRA

4 steward you would be singled out as a target?

5 A. Well, when you are wearing something so

6 significant you would obviously stand out in a crowd

7 and I was getting concerned for my own safety, so

8 I took it off.

9 Q. In all those marches and meetings you

10 attended up until Bloody Sunday, did you ever come

11 across on any occasion gunmen using the civilians as

12 cover for firing at the army or the Security Forces?

13 A. No.

14 Questioned by MR COYLE

15 MR COYLE: Mr Morrison, my name is Coyle,

16 I appear for the family of Bernard McGuigan. I have

17 three matters I want to ask you about. Could I have on

18 the screen, please, EP27.9. Mr Morrison, if I could

19 orientate you to what that photograph is of. It is

20 looking up Rossville Street, northwards towards

21 William Street and across into the mouth of

22 Sackville Street. Are you orientated as to what it

23 shows?

24 A. Yes, it is showing army vehicles.

25 Q. Could I have control of the screen, please?


Page 117


1 What I want to direct your attention towards is the

2 army vehicles and particularly at the tip of the arrow

3 which I have drawn there appears to be a soldier

4 kneeling. (Indicating).

5 In your answers to my learned friend

6 Mr Rawat, you indicated the soldier de-bussed from the

7 armoured vehicle and went down on his knee as you were

8 moving away. Was that the position of the soldier who

9 went down on his knee?

10 A. It would have been in the general area, yeah,

11 in this general area.

12 Q. The second matter I want to ask you about --

13 it really is for the sake of completeness, I think --

14 Mr Rawat asked you were there any bombs or anything of

15 any nature thrown from the Rossville Flats, any

16 bottles, and you said no to that. In consequence, did

17 you see any acid bombs thrown from the Rossville Flats?

18 A. No.

19 Q. The third and last matter I want to ask you:

20 did you see anything that any of the civilians were

21 doing that justified the use of lethal force by the

22 army?

23 A. I seen absolutely no civilians in any

24 aggressive mode, physically or otherwise.

25 Questioned by MR O'HANLON


Page 118


1 MR O'HANLON: My name is Paddy O'Hanlon,

2 I represent the Northern Ireland Civil Rights

3 Association. There is one matter I would like to ask

4 you about that you might be able to assist the Tribunal

5 further on. Could we have AM427.8 up on the screen.

6 This particular paragraph, Mr Morrison,

7 paragraph 10, deals with the situation at the bottom of

8 William Street when you had first heard that there was

9 a difficulty at the lower end of William Street. Do

10 you recollect that situation?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 MR O'HANLON: You indicate in the paragraph

13 itself you decided to make your way down to the

14 barrier. Was that of your own initiative or had you

15 received some communication.

16 LORD SAVILLE: I thought, Mr O'Hanlon,

17 Mr Morrison already told us it was as a result of what

18 Ken McCorry said, or did I misunderstand you?

19 A. Yes, Kevin McCorry was in the area calling

20 for stewards to come.

21 MR O'HANLON: The point I was really making,

22 did McCorry come up the line to say that or did you

23 just hear a loudhailer in the distance?

24 A. I actually seen him to my left, coming up the

25 line.


Page 119


1 Q. Did you accompany him back towards the bottom

2 of William Street?

3 A. I followed him down, yeah.

4 Q. Did you go down at the same time or were you

5 behind him?

6 A. Behind him.

7 Q. Could I have on the screen EP4, 16.001,

8 please. There actually is a photograph without names

9 on it but this is sufficient. Is there anybody in that

10 photograph you recognise?

11 A. I think in the centre that again may be

12 Freddy Bond.

13 Q. Do you see Kevin McCorry in the photograph?

14 A. Yes, I do, with his back just here.

15 (Indicating).

16 Q. When you arrived at that location, which is

17 at the junction of William Street, Chamberlain Street,

18 just back from the barrier; what was happening?

19 A. There was sort of a stand-off, a situation,

20 and there was a buffer zone between the stewards and

21 the army barrier on the screen.

22 Q. At the forefront?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I would like to show you one other photograph

25 and then I would like to ask you a question. Could we


Page 120


1 have EP4.17.001. You indicated that there was a line

2 of stewards at that location. That is also short of

3 the barrier, if I can put it in that regard. Now,

4 there has been a lot of evidence in relation to

5 stewards at the barrier itself. Do you recall stewards

6 at the barrier itself?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. There is no evidence as to what happened in

9 the intermediate stage, if you follow me, Mr Morrison.

10 How did the crowd and the stewards get to the situation

11 short of the barrier as they are there, to the barrier;

12 do you recollect anything happening?

13 A. Well, I knew -- there was a lot of

14 stone-throwing had taken place, um, and there may have

15 been a bit of pressure from the crowd, you know.

16 Q. Is that a clear recollection, or is it a

17 supposition afterwards; do you think it was pressure

18 from the crowd forced them down the street?

19 A. I cannot be 100 per cent sure, because I was

20 sited just round the corner there at the Lion Bar,

21 I was somewhat back -- I was not at this interface,

22 I was behind.

23 Q. You recall the stewards at the barrier. Were

24 the stewards at the barrier when the water cannon came

25 in, in your recollection?


Page 121


1 A. Yes, they were holding a line, yeah.

2 Q. And stones were still being thrown at that

3 stage?

4 A. Yeah, over.

5 Q. Where were they being thrown from?

6 A. From behind, from about Quinn's fish shop

7 there and the corner of Chamberlain Street.

8 Q. Would it be fair to say, what you are saying

9 is they were coming behind the stewards and behind the

10 front row of marchers?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. In the circumstances, when the water cannon

13 came in you have indicated that the street cleared and

14 you returned to the Rossville Street area; is that

15 correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 MR O'HANLON: Thank you.

18 Questioned by MR GLASGOW

19 MR GLASGOW: Mr Morrison, my name is Glasgow,

20 I represent many of the soldiers, I have a very few

21 questions for you on the statements that were taken

22 from you, but I should say that, as the Chairman says,

23 of course we have read the statement you wrote yourself

24 and I understand and accept, and I do not wish you to

25 think, or anyone else, that in the questions I am


Page 122


1 asking I am ignoring that, indeed I accept that you are

2 clearly a man who has been committed to a peaceful

3 solution to these problems, and I am not implying

4 anything to the contrary, but I do not have any

5 questions on that statement.

6 Could you help the Inquiry a little bit more,

7 please, first of all on the build-up to Bloody Sunday.

8 If you want to go back to your statement, of course

9 I will take you. I think you may be able to help me

10 without us going to the documents again.

11 You have a recollection of Mrs Bond telling

12 you of assurances she had received from whoever it was

13 that she was able to talk to who could assure her about

14 paramilitary activity on Bloody Sunday; that is what it

15 boils down to?

16 A. Yes, I have heard the comment, yeah.

17 Q. And you were satisfied, particularly coming

18 from her, the lady that she was, that that was

19 a sensible assurance that she had been given?

20 A. Yes, I would not have had any part of the

21 march if I had thought there was going to be any

22 violence.

23 Q. That is why I accepted what I said about your

24 statement. I wholly accept that. Had you yourself

25 been interested to know that, did you want to have that


Page 123


1 reassurance personally yourself, or was that something

2 she wanted?

3 A. I never thought about it until I heard the

4 comment said, it did not cross my mind.

5 Q. Could I ask you what you say about the

6 supplementary statement which we were just given. If

7 you would like to look at this, I think you should have

8 it on the screen, AM427.15. You tried to recall,

9 I think at paragraph 2, the names of the members of the

10 committee, do you remember, at paragraph 2?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. My learned friend Mr Rawat, who asked you

13 questions right at the start, showed you some documents

14 with other names on them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you tried to recall who was on the

17 committee, did you have the documents in front of you

18 or was that just you trying to recall from memory?

19 A. These particular ones on the screen?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. That is from memory.

22 Q. Later on in this statement it is apparent

23 that you were asked about a whole series of names of

24 people generally involved?

25 A. Yes.


Page 124


1 Q. Again to take it shortly, we heard on your

2 own list, three lines from the bottom, Mavis Sheerin,

3 who became Mavis Hyde, did she not?

4 A. So I understand. I have not seen her in many

5 years.

6 Q. She was very good and came yesterday, despite

7 her condition, and gave the Tribunal help as to who

8 they were. She was, I think, the secretary and took

9 the minutes of the meetings, was that right?

10 A. I understand that was correct.

11 Q. You say you understand that, I am not being

12 critical, I think you yourself did not go to any of the

13 meetings?

14 A. I was in full-time employment. As

15 I explained earlier, there was a lot of activity in

16 Brigid's house all day long.

17 Q. Did you ever actually attend many of the

18 committee meetings yourself?

19 A. Not to any great -- not to the level, for

20 example, Michael Havord or people like that, no.

21 Q. Or indeed Mrs Hyde?

22 A. She would have been there.

23 Q. Would it be right that her recollection of

24 memberships of the committee and that kind of thing is

25 likely to be more accurate than yours?


Page 125


1 A. No, I would not -- I was in the house daily,

2 that would have been later in the afternoon, but

3 I would not just --

4 Q. Can I look at the list that you put in your

5 paragraph 2 because there were names that you included,

6 for example: Laura Glenn. You recall that Laura Glenn

7 was a member of the committee?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That was a name that I do not think came up

10 yesterday. Ms Hyde gave us some other names from the

11 document that was shown to her. For the record it is

12 the GEN5.7. I do not ask for it because it is the one

13 you looked at with my learned friend in the two

14 halves. The other names she picked out, just yes or

15 no: Norman Walmsley, she thought he was on the

16 committee?

17 A. Norman Walmsley would have been a man who was

18 around while in the house.

19 Q. Gerry Doherty, I think you said to my friend

20 you overlooked his name in this list, he was a

21 prominent personality?

22 A. Gerry Doherty, yes.

23 Q. Eamonn Melaugh?

24 A. Eamonn Melaugh I do not recall being around

25 Brigid's house too often.


Page 126


1 Q. Len Green?

2 A. No, definitely while -- I never met Len

3 Green.

4 Q. I was not suggesting whether they were around

5 the house or not, these were names she said were on the

6 committee; whether they attended or not I do not know?

7 A. I do not recall Len Green.

8 Q. Do you remember Reg Tester?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You do not remember him?

11 A. No.

12 Q. The last matter, Mr Morrison, again in

13 fairness to you, on the question of taking of

14 statements: did you, in your recollection always take

15 statements in the same way?

16 A. Yes, whatever people said, I just put down.

17 Q. Your recollection is that usually you would

18 write it down while they spoke?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember ever taking multiple

21 statements, more than one person at a time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You have no recollection of that at all?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I wonder, would you mind, please, looking at


Page 127


1 a statement which was produced by two witnesses earlier

2 to the Tribunal. I think its best form is in the

3 manuscript at AO55.10, although I confess that is a

4 memory, I hope it is right. I know there is a typed

5 version, 55.8. This is the second part of it.

6 Mr Morrison, is it your writing -- I do not

7 think it is your signature?

8 A. That is my writing, yes.

9 Q. Your writing is at the top?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At the bottom where it says "witnessed by

12 Charlie Morrison", that is your writing as well?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember anything about this? There

15 is no trick in this, Mr O'Loughlin and Mr McMenamin

16 told the Tribunal that they believed the statement had

17 been made together. One of them actually believed he

18 had written it down, or written some of it down, and

19 the other one had agreed with what was written. Do you

20 have any recollection of taking a statement in that

21 way?

22 A. That is my recollection, there could have

23 been two people in the room. When you said multiple

24 people, I thought you meant five or six people in the

25 room.


Page 128


1 Q. If that was the case that would be unique, it

2 was the only double statement, if I can put it in that

3 shorthand?

4 A. I would say that is probably correct, again

5 I do not know.

6 Q. The last matter, very shortly, is simply your

7 recollections of what you saw on Bloody Sunday. So you

8 have them in front of you, if we go to the fourth page

9 of your statement which we have at AM427.4, so that you

10 can refresh your memory, the middle paragraphs 17 to 19

11 inclusive, of you seeing the shooting as you recall

12 from the Pig to the north of the wasteground and then

13 you see a Pig at the entrance to the car park and later

14 on some soldiers at the northern end -- towards the

15 entrance, as my learned friend put it very fairly, the

16 mouth of the car park; do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR GLASGOW: I wanted you to have the

19 opportunity of dealing with a statement that we have

20 been given which was said to relate to you, which we

21 have at AM427.14. While it comes up on the screen,

22 I can help you to this extent: Mr Morrison, we

23 understand that this would be a typed-up version of a

24 note made by a newspaper journalist by the Sunday

25 Times. Do you have any recollection at all --


Page 129


1 MR RAWAT: Sorry to interrupt, it is actually

2 a note from a Praxis interview and we think it is Tony

3 Stark who is the reporter.

4 MR GLASGOW: Sorry, I have done that before.

5 It is the journalist, the television journalist from a

6 company called Praxis. Do you remember talking to

7 anybody like that at all?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could we have a quick look at it, in that

10 case. It has your name at the top, "Civil rights

11 activist involved in organising the march". That would

12 seem to be right, would it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What it says is:

15 "Saw soldiers firing towards the barricade

16 from the gable end of block 1 of the Rossville Flats."

17 So that you can deal with it together, in the

18 third paragraph, the last sentence, it repeats that:

19 "... Block 1, and was firing on one knee

20 towards the barricade."

21 If it does relate to a conversation with you,

22 can you recall some years ago telling anybody that that

23 was your recollection of what you had seen?

24 A. I do not recall this document.

25 Q. You do not recall it at all?


Page 130


1 A. I was quite surprised when I seen it in the

2 papers.

3 Q. You have had the opportunity of looking at

4 that before, I am not taking you totally by surprise?

5 A. No, it was included and I thought it was just

6 an assessment from someone here.

7 Q. It did not ring any bells at all?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Might I, out of sequence, take you back to

10 the meetings that you did attend of the Derry CRA, as

11 I think you all called it, the NICRA branch, the Derry

12 branch of NICRA: did you ever have any minutes of those

13 meetings yourself?

14 A. I did not have any minutes of these meetings,

15 they were to be kept in Brigid Bond's house.

16 Q. There was only the one set?

17 A. I understand that to be correct.

18 Questioned by MR ELIAS

19 MR ELIAS: Mr Morrison, could we look again

20 at AM427.14? Appreciating what you say about the

21 document, about having no recollection of the

22 conversation, could I take you to paragraph 2. What is

23 said is:

24 "He did not witness anything of great

25 consequence. He definitely saw soldiers shooting as he


Page 131


1 ran to get between the gap between the

2 Rossville Flats."

3 You did, as you have told us:

4 "He remembers seeing the guns jerk upwards as

5 the soldiers fired. One soldier was standing at the

6 gable end of block one and was firing on one knee

7 toward the barricade."

8 Do you in fact have any recollection of

9 seeing that?

10 A. I do not have any recollection of a soldier

11 standing at a gable end.

12 Q. You do not have any recollection now of any

13 soldier standing at the gable end?

14 A. No, I do not have any recollection of that

15 incident.

16 Q. Can I be clear about this: as you came down

17 Rossville Street and you were aware of the revving of

18 engines, the crowd started to run and you started to

19 run with them?

20 A. I did, yeah.

21 Q. You veered off to the left, as you believe

22 the first vehicle came more or less alongside you in

23 Rossville Street; is that it?

24 A. I was running and the vehicle was coming

25 parallel.


Page 132


1 Q. From then on you ran across what we have been

2 calling the wasteground, Eden Place and Pilot Row into

3 the gap of the Rossville Flats, the car park there?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. As you ran across that wasteground, was there

6 ever any Pig or any army vehicle, if you like, in front

7 of you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you see any army vehicle come on to the

10 wasteground?

11 A. I actually think they veered in towards that

12 as I was running away from them.

13 Q. Did you see that?

14 A. When I was in the car park I looked back and

15 seen the vehicles. I did not actually see it, I kept

16 looking as they were coming and I just kept, because

17 I was in a panic to get away.

18 Q. It was not until you were in the car park

19 that you were first aware of some army vehicle or

20 vehicles on the wasteground; is that the position?

21 A. To the centre of the opening of the car park

22 would be correct, yes.

23 Q. Do you think it might be, with the passage of

24 time, that your recollection of a soldier or soldiers

25 getting out of a Pig and taking up a firing position


Page 133


1 relate to Pig on the wasteground, as opposed to being

2 on Rossville Street?

3 A. It is possible with the passage of time.

4 I have tried all through this to ignore what I have

5 seen on the television and what pictures I have seen,

6 you know, I did not want to be --

7 Q. It is difficult to know whether it is your

8 recollection or what you may have imported from what

9 you have seen or been told?

10 A. Well, I was there on the day, you know.

11 Q. Let me leave that and ask you this: you were

12 there on the day and you were involved with the CRA.

13 You did not make a statement, did you, at the time?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. Was there any reason for that?

16 A. I think it was because of the shock I was in,

17 the shock of the events of Bloody Sunday, and then when

18 I started getting into taking the statements of others,

19 it seemed more appropriate to take statements from

20 people who had seen much worse than I had seen on the

21 day. But it never crossed my mind at that time to make

22 a statement.

23 Q. There was not any instruction from the

24 Executive or anything of that kind?

25 A. Oh absolutely not, no, no. I would be


Page 134


1 opposed to that.

2 Q. You have mentioned a number of names,

3 particularly in the supplementary statement that you

4 made in March, of those who were involved with NICRA,

5 the Northern Ireland and the Derry dimension, if I can

6 put it that way. Did you know or did you hear of Billy

7 McMillen?

8 A. Most of those people, I would have read about

9 them in the newspapers, about civil rights activities

10 all over the north. I do not think I personally ever

11 met any of those people. I knew -- I mean the names

12 were quite common around the place, but I have no

13 recollection of ever --

14 Q. You lived in the Creggan?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. You were aware, were you not, of IRA activity

17 in the Creggan?

18 A. Well, I worked in the area, yeah.

19 Q. Did you know members of the IRA?

20 A. No, the IRA. As you will appreciate, it is

21 a secret organisation and I, I am totally opposed to

22 violence. As I say, I went about my business in the

23 area, but I did not -- it would be conjecture.

24 Q. I understand, it would be conjecture. So you

25 did not know who was in the IRA?


Page 135


1 A. No.

2 Q. And unless they declared so, you could not

3 know, is that what you are saying?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So whether there were active members of the

6 IRA involved locally with the Derry CRA, you would not

7 know?

8 A. I would not have known.

9 Q. Whether there were active members of the IRA

10 present on the march on Bloody Sunday, you simply would

11 not know?

12 A. No.

13 MR RAWAT: Sir, I have no further questions.

14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Morrison, the Chairman

15 again. Thank you very much indeed for coming here to

16 assist the Inquiry, thank you.

17 LORD SAVILLE: I think we have Mr Duffy.

18 I understand Mr Duffy will be our last witness today;

19 is that right?

20 MS McGAHEY: Yes, sir.

21 MR GAVAN DUFFY, sworn

22 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY

23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, if you look to your

24 right you have possibly heard me say this to other

25 witnesses, I will say it to you: I am the Chairman.


Page 136


1 The questions will come this the main from the

2 barristers who sit in front of you and I would ask you

3 to keep your face reasonably close to the microphone in

4 front of you and then we can all hear what you have to

5 say.

6 MS MCGAHEY: Mr Duffy, do you have in front

7 of you a copy to the statement you made to this Inquiry

8 and signed on 15th November 1999?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do you have a copy of a further statement

11 that you made on 30th January last year?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are the contents of those statements true to

14 the best of your knowledge and belief?

15 A. They are, yes.

16 Q. Everybody here has had a chance to read your

17 statement, so I am not going to ask you about

18 everything contained in them. If we look at the first

19 page, which is on the screen at the moment, you tell us

20 that you were on the march with your friend

21 Paul McGeady. You must have been, I think, about

22 18 years old at the time; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. If we look at paragraph 4 you say that you

25 could hear some trouble in William Street, you could


Page 137


1 hear rubber bullets and saw that some people were wet.

2 But you, and particularly your friend, Mr McGeady,

3 wanted to stay away from the trouble and you decided to

4 go down to Free Derry Corner.

5 At paragraph 6 you tell us you had gone down

6 Rossville Street and reached Free Derry Corner. Your

7 recollection is at that stage the speeches had started;

8 is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you remember who was speaking?

11 A. I have no idea.

12 Q. Can you remember who was on the platform?

13 A. No.

14 Q. We know from other evidence that

15 Ms Bernadette Devlin was among those on the platform;

16 she was a well-known figure at the time, was she not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember seeing her on the lorry?

19 A. I do not, I do not know.

20 Q. Your friend Mr McGeady has given to statement

21 to the Inquiry and for the record it is AM219. His

22 recollection is that you cut across the Eden Place

23 wasteground from William Street, reached the rubble

24 barricade, heard a rumour there had been shooting in

25 William Street and went back up?


Page 138


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does that sound right?

3 A. That sounds --

4 Q. Your recollection is you did not get as far

5 as Free Derry Corner?

6 A. I think my statement was towards Free Derry

7 Corner. I did not say we actually reached it, but we

8 were heading in that direction.

9 Q. Do you remember while you were in that area

10 between the rubble barricade and Free Derry Corner

11 hearing any shots being fired?

12 A. The only thing I can recall is maybe rubber

13 bullets and gas cannisters, but no actual shots.

14 Q. At the time you could tell the difference

15 between rubber bullets and live fire?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In any event you decided, paragraph 7, to

18 return. You went back up William Street, the

19 disturbances were still going on, there was still

20 shouting and the noise of rubber bullets in that area

21 and you both decided to walk back towards Free Derry

22 Corner?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You tell us you went through the wasteground

25 on the side of Kells Walk?


Page 139


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And looked into William Street from the point

3 that you have marked "A" on the map that we have all

4 seen, an alleyway leading out of Kells Walk into

5 Rossville Street?

6 A. Rossville Street, yeah.

7 Q. At paragraphs 7 and 8, your recollection is

8 from that alleyway you could see three or four Pigs

9 flying up Rossville Street at great speed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you say "up Rossville Street", does that

12 mean towards Free Derry Corner?

13 A. Yes, it does, yeah.

14 Q. And your recollection is still that they were

15 going at some considerable speed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were there people in the way of these Pigs?

18 A. I only had a view of -- through an alleyway,

19 so I could not say.

20 Q. If we go to paragraph 8, you came out of

21 Rossville Street to the south of the rubble barricade,

22 having gone through Glenfada Park North; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You came out at the eastern entrance to

25 Glenfada Park North. You saw a crowd of people on


Page 140


1 Rossville Street, some running past towards Free Derry

2 Corner and you do not remember at that stage seeing the

3 Pigs?

4 A. That is correct, yes.

5 Q. Did you look for them?

6 A. I expected them to be there right at the

7 barricade or somewhere close, yeah.

8 Q. At paragraph 9 you go on to say that "there

9 were people around the barricade, some throwing stones

10 and empty bottles. The majority were just watching."

11 If we could have on the screen, please,

12 EP35.4. You have seen this photograph before, I think,

13 Mr Duffy?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You have told us that you do not recognise

16 yourself in that photograph?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Does this photograph show the sort of numbers

19 of people who were at the barricade when you arrived

20 there?

21 A. They would do, yes.

22 Q. If we go on to EP35.3, you have also seen

23 this photograph before?

24 A. I have, yes.

25 Q. Do you believe the person there may be you;


Page 141


1 is that right?

2 A. It may be, yeah.

3 Q. The person in the middle. You tell us that

4 you were not throwing anything; that is right?

5 A. That is correct, yes.

6 Q. But others were?

7 A. Yes, yeah.

8 Q. Others, presumably to the left and right of

9 you were throwing things?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So why did you go right to the middle of this

12 activity?

13 A. I was just drawn towards it, I just wanted to

14 see what was happening.

15 Q. At what or at whom were the people at the

16 barricade throwing missiles?

17 A. There were soldiers making their way up

18 through Kells Walk on the side, they were throwing the

19 stones at them.

20 Q. And at anyone else?

21 A. Not really, no.

22 Q. You have told us earlier in your statement,

23 if we go back to AD155.2, paragraph 8, at the time you

24 arrived there was a crowd of people on

25 Rossville Street, some running past?


Page 142


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does that mean that crowd of people has to

3 run through those who were throwing stones and bottles?

4 A. No, no, no, they were running past. There

5 was a crowd throwing stones as well, though.

6 Q. Had the crowd running past gone by the time

7 the stone-throwing started?

8 A. No, there was still people running past, but

9 there was not that many people throwing stones. It was

10 not a massive crowd of people throwing stones. There

11 was more people making their way up to get out of the

12 way.

13 Q. Did those people have to go past those who

14 were throwing the stones?

15 A. I am sure they must have, some of them, yeah.

16 Q. You have told us that you saw soldiers at

17 Kells Walk and that they were firing rubber bullets in

18 paragraph 9?

19 A. Mmm.

20 Q. And you are certain those were rubber

21 bullets?

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. How did you know that?

24 A. As I say, I have lived in the area for a

25 length of time, I know what rubber bullets looked like,


Page 143


1 and the sound.

2 Q. Mr McGeady has told us that those rubber

3 bullets were at the far end of their range and were not

4 reaching those at the barricade; is that your

5 recollection?

6 A. I would agree with that, yes.

7 Q. Going on to paragraphs 10 and 11, you saw a

8 youth running along the wasteground to the north of the

9 Rossville Flats?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you did not recognise him, but you have

12 seen a photograph.

13 If we could have a look at EP24.5A you think

14 this may be the boy that you saw?

15 A. I think it may be, yes.

16 Q. Do you recognise him from that photograph?

17 A. I do not, no.

18 Q. Is it simply a scene similar to the one that

19 you saw?

20 A. It is a scene very similar, yes.

21 Q. But you could not tell us whether that is in

22 fact the boy that you saw?

23 A. Not from that photograph, no.

24 Q. If we go back to your statement, back to

25 paragraphs 10 and 11 on AD155.2, you say:


Page 144


1 "A soldier appeared from the back of the

2 Rossville Flats and hit the youth with his rifle butt.

3 The youth fell to the ground and at the sight of him

4 being hit with a rifle a lot of people at the barricade

5 surged forwards and some threw stones and others joined

6 the crowd."

7 Again I am only asking you to give us a rough

8 estimate: what was the sort of number of people who

9 surged forwards towards the soldier and the boy?

10 A. I would say there was about 80, 80 people.

11 Q. About 80 people?

12 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, when you say "surged

13 forward", you mean got on to the, beyond the

14 William Street side of the barricade?

15 A. No, most of the people were in -- round about

16 Glenfada Park on the opposite side of the barricade and

17 as they seen the youth being attacked by the soldier,

18 they surged forward towards the barricade.

19 LORD SAVILLE: The Free Derry Corner side of

20 the barricade?

21 A. Yes.

22 LORD SAVILLE: That they came up towards the

23 barricade?

24 A. Yes.

25 LORD SAVILLE: That is what you are saying?


Page 145


1 A. That is what I am saying, yes.

2 MS McGAHEY: Thank you, sir. Did any of

3 those people that you saw go in front of the barricade

4 further towards the soldier?

5 A. Yes, there was a few people in front of the

6 barricade, yes.

7 Q. Again, can you tell us roughly how many?

8 A. I would say maybe between 20, 30 people.

9 Q. Were those people throwing missiles?

10 A. Some of them were, yes.

11 Q. At whom?

12 A. At the soldiers. By this time more soldiers

13 appeared from round the flats, at the wasteground and

14 out of Kells Walk.

15 Q. Did you see any people approach the soldier

16 in an effort to rescue the boy?

17 A. No, I did not notice that, no.

18 Q. You have told us in paragraph 11 that the

19 soldiers emerged. You then tell us that you heard a

20 shot fired and can you now recall hearing that shot?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was it a live shot?

23 A. It was a live shot, yeah.

24 Q. And the boy to your left who had been either

25 on the barricade or slightly to the south of it was


Page 146


1 blown backwards with his arms outstretched?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. From which direction, first of all, do you

4 think that that shot had been fired?

5 A. The shot came from round the bottom end of

6 Kells Walk/Glenfada Park side.

7 Q. Did you see any soldier in that area firing

8 at that time?

9 A. There was five or six soldiers in the area,

10 but I did not see the soldier firing the shot at that

11 time.

12 Q. Was that the first live shot that you heard

13 that day?

14 A. That is the first live shot I recall, yes.

15 Q. You said:

16 "The boy fell backwards with his arms

17 outstretched"; did you see anything in his hands as he

18 fell?

19 A. No, there was nothing in his hands.

20 Q. You tell us in paragraph 12, you having

21 focused on him before he was shot, but you think he was

22 surging forward with the crowd?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In his statement Mr McGeady says he believes

25 the boy had been moving forwards to rescue the youth on


Page 147


1 the wasteground; can you help at all with that?

2 A. Well, you could say everybody was sorta

3 moving forward maybe to give assistance to the person

4 that was being arrested, so ...

5 Q. If we could have on the screen, please, P637;

6 you have seen this photograph before, I think?

7 A. I have, yes.

8 Q. We can see in the middle of the photograph a

9 boy lying on the ground. You have told the Inquiry you

10 think this may be the boy who fell backwards?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Does he appear familiar to you from looking

13 at that photograph?

14 A. No, he does not, but the scene seems to be

15 the one that I have described, yes.

16 Q. Do you believe this may be the boy you saw,

17 simply because of the position he is in on the ground?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It is possible, although not certain, that

20 there is a further person on the ground there to the

21 left of the photograph. Do you recall seeing anybody

22 there when you were there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. He was the only person that while you were at

25 the barricade you saw at this time?


Page 148


1 A. He was the first one, yes.

2 Q. If we go back to your statement to AD155.2,

3 paragraph 12: in the middle of that paragraph you say

4 that "shots then began to ring out from all over".

5 Can you give the Inquiry any idea of the

6 direction or directions from which you think these

7 shots were coming?

8 A. The shots were coming from Kells Walk, the

9 soldiers at Kells Walk.

10 Q. Is that the only direction you think from

11 which they were coming?

12 A. Yes, that is the only direction.

13 Q. When you said in your statement that "the

14 shots began to ring out from all over", what was it

15 that you meant?

16 A. I meant from that area.

17 Q. And you refer to "one soldier being somewhat

18 in front of the others at the little walk of the wall

19 at Kells Walk firing two or three shots directly up

20 Rossville Street."

21 By "up Rossville Street", again is that the

22 direction towards Free Derry Corner?

23 A. Yes, towards the barricade.

24 Q. You could see the sparks from his gun. He

25 seemed to be crouching and lunching, as if moving


Page 149


1 forward, shooting at the same time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That is your recollection now of what he was

4 doing?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we could have a photograph of P261,

7 please, on the screen. Again, you have seen this

8 photograph before?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you have drawn attention to the soldier

11 here?

12 A. Uh-huh, yes.

13 Q. Does that soldier look, from his posture and

14 his location, to be the one to whom you are referring?

15 A. It does indeed, yes.

16 Q. What makes you think that is the soldier who

17 was lunging and crouching and firing?

18 A. I cannot be certain because there is no

19 actual crowd at the barricade at this time, but that

20 was the position he was in; he was standing out from

21 the rest, he was moving forward.

22 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, that does lead to

23 asking if you can help me a little bit more. You have

24 told us about how this boy got knocked down on the

25 wasteground, quite a lot of people surging up to the


Page 150


1 barricade because of that, a few going over the

2 barricade and throwing stones. Then, as I understand

3 it, the shot --

4 A. Yes.

5 LORD SAVILLE: -- and this boy falling

6 A. Yes.

7 LORD SAVILLE: -- you think backwards, and

8 then you have been asked about other shots. We are

9 just talking about this soldier, but in that sequence

10 of events, I have the picture in my mind from your

11 evidence at the moment of quite a lot of people at the

12 barricade who have come surging forward and then the

13 shot; what happened to those people?

14 A. It took a long time for people to determine

15 whether -- because people were not really certain that

16 they were live shots they were firing. You see people

17 were looking at each other, it was only when they

18 realised that everybody sort of dispersed in all

19 different directions. I was not too clear at the start

20 that the soldier was actually firing.

21 LORD SAVILLE: The first shot that you heard

22 did not disperse --

23 A. Did not, no.

24 LORD SAVILLE: -- the crowd. Then you talk

25 about the other shots. Is it at that stage the crowd


Page 151


1 cottoned on to what seemed to be happening and started

2 getting out of it?

3 A. It certainly was when I caught on anyway,

4 yes.

5 LORD SAVILLE: Your memory is that other

6 people appeared to cotton on at about the same time?

7 A. I would say so, because people then started

8 to crouch behind the barricade.

9 MS McGAHEY: If we go back to your statement

10 at AD155.2, highlight paragraphs 12 and 13. At the

11 bottom of paragraph 12, you say that as the soldier was

12 firing you were trying to make your way back across the

13 road towards Lisfannon Park where you lived, but you

14 could not because of the firing at the people on the

15 barricade?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Thinking back now, it is your recollection

18 that that soldier was aiming at the people at the

19 barricade; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Going on from the question the Chairman has

22 just asked you, if you think of seeing that soldier

23 firing at the people on the barricade, how many people

24 were there in that area as he did that?

25 A. Maybe 20 or 30 people crouched down behind


Page 152


1 the barricade on both sides of the road.

2 Q. "On both sides of the road", do you mean on

3 the side of the barricade nearest to William Street and

4 nearest to Free Derry Corner, or do you mean nearest to

5 Kells Walk and nearest to the Rossville Flats?

6 A. Nearest Free Derry Corner. The barricade had

7 been split. There was a gap in the barricade, I am

8 talking of both sides in the actual barricade on the

9 Free Derry Corner side.

10 Q. All the people you recall were on the Free

11 Derry Corner side?

12 A. Most of them, yes, there was some people on

13 the other side, but most of them were behind the

14 barricade.

15 Q. What were the people on the other side doing?

16 A. They were running towards the barricade

17 trying to get over the barricade.

18 Q. As you recollect it, were those people

19 running as the soldier fired?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many people, again roughly?

22 A. Again there would be 10 or 12 at the far

23 side, I would say.

24 Q. You then say in paragraph 13 that at least a

25 few shots came from the three or four soldiers at the


Page 153


1 northern gable end of block 1; is that your

2 recollection now?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You have told us a few moments ago that when

5 shots came, as you said initially from all over, in

6 fact you meant from Kells Walk?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was it, in the sequence of events, that

9 the shots came, you thought, from block 1?

10 A. When I was running across from the barricade

11 back towards the flats, the main entrance to the flats

12 it was the only time I actually seen the soldiers at

13 the corner of the flats firing. I did not even know

14 there were soldiers there at that time.

15 Q. It was only after you were making your way

16 away from the barricade that you were aware of that

17 shooting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If we go over the page, AD155.3, paragraphs

20 13 and 14, you say that you made your way towards the

21 entrance to block 1 of the Rossville Flats?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you tried to get in through the doorway

24 but you could not because of the number of people who

25 were blocking it?


Page 154


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You say that there was a crowd of people

3 running in the direction of Free Derry Corner. Again,

4 at this stage, roughly how many people were running?

5 A. There was not that many people there, but

6 anybody who was at the back of the barricade was trying

7 to get past or into the flats or just get out of the

8 way.

9 Q. Was the shooting continuing as you did this?

10 A. No, there was shooting at that stage, yes.

11 Q. You say that you saw two men fall who just

12 lay on the ground and did not get up, but you do not

13 know whether they fell or were shot.

14 Where were you when you saw this happen?

15 A. I was running. I was running and crouching,

16 trying to get cover from the barricade, running towards

17 the flats, the flat entrance.

18 Q. How close were you to the flat entrance?

19 A. About 10 feet away.

20 Q. 10 feet away?

21 A. 10 feet away.

22 Q. You were obviously heading towards the flat

23 entrance?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How was it that you were able to see what was


Page 155


1 going on behind you?

2 A. I was looking -- I was looking, I was looking

3 towards the soldiers that were on the far side of the

4 barricade. Everybody else was doing the same.

5 Q. Were you standing, lying, crouching?

6 A. No, I was crouching and trying to run at the

7 same time.

8 Q. Thinking of those two men, one, you say, was

9 on the barricade near the middle of the road and he

10 seemed to fall forwards. He was standing on the

11 barricade itself; is that right?

12 A. I would say he was trying to make his way

13 past the barricade or towards.

14 Q. Which way was he facing?

15 A. He was probably facing as he turned -- he

16 seemed to fall as he turned to face me, faced towards

17 the Free Derry Corner side.

18 Q. When you first saw him, was he facing up

19 towards the soldiers?

20 A. I would say he was, yes.

21 Q. What was he doing?

22 A. Again he was just trying to get out of the

23 way, as I was.

24 Q. If he was facing towards the soldiers and you

25 say also trying to get away?


Page 156


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was he running backwards?

3 A. Not really, no, because I was more or less

4 facing the soldiers and I was trying to get away, I was

5 running sideways, I was looking at the soldiers and

6 I was trying to get away at the same time.

7 Q. And is that what he was doing?

8 A. I would say he was doing the same.

9 Q. Can you remember, for example, roughly what

10 age this man was?

11 A. I would say about the same age as myself.

12 Q. About 18?

13 A. Yes, about that.

14 Q. Can you give us any description at all of the

15 clothes that he was wearing?

16 A. He would have been wearing a lighter coat,

17 but that is, a jacket, I would say.

18 Q. Anything else at all?

19 A. Not really, no.

20 Q. Did you see any injuries on him?

21 A. No, I would not have been close enough to see

22 any injuries on him, no.

23 Q. The second man, you say, he fell to his left,

24 slid forwards towards you, towards block 1 of the

25 flats?


Page 157


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Again, can you remember anything at all about

3 the age of this man?

4 A. Not really, no.

5 Q. Anything at all about the clothes he was

6 wearing?

7 A. Just that he would have been wearing dark

8 clothes, there was nothing standing out, there was

9 nothing --

10 Q. He was wearing dark clothes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Going on to paragraphs 15 and 16, you say

13 that you realised you were not going to be able to get

14 into the flats, so you went around the corner towards

15 the telephone box. People were crouched down and

16 taking cover. The shots at this time were more severe

17 and fairly steady and seemed to be all around. You

18 have told us the echoes were very confusing.

19 Do you have any idea at that point where the

20 shots were coming from?

21 A. I still thought the shots were coming from

22 Rossville Street.

23 Q. You have told us other people were saying

24 that the army might be firing from the walls; did you

25 have any impression of that?


Page 158


1 A. I did not, no, but there were people there

2 saying that the army was firing from the walls.

3 Q. Was this all live fire?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. You have told us, going on, that you ran

6 along the block 2 shops and then into the alleyway

7 behind Joseph Place?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And took shelter in a garden. At that time

10 the shooting was still going on?

11 A. There was a few shots, yes.

12 Q. Can you give us any idea of how long it took

13 from the moment that you heard that first shot at the

14 rubble barricade to the time that you ended up in

15 Joseph Place?

16 A. I am sure it would have been no more than a

17 minute and a half.

18 Q. A minute and a half?

19 A. I am sure. When I was crouching down at the

20 shops, I was there not for very long, say a minute and

21 a half, it really was.

22 Q. For how long did you stay in Joseph Place?

23 A. I stayed there until all the shooting stopped

24 and I was sure it was all stopped and this was then the

25 people started coming out and moving about, so


Page 159


1 I thought it was safe then.

2 Q. Roughly how long was that?

3 A. I would say it was at least maybe four, four

4 minutes.

5 Q. Four minutes?

6 A. About four minutes, aye.

7 Q. Paragraphs 17 and 18 you tell us that

8 eventually you went to Free Derry Corner when the

9 shooting was over?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you looked up towards William Street and

12 saw there were soldiers still there, but further up

13 Rossville Street than you had originally seen them

14 before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That is all I would like to ask you about

17 those immediate events. You have told us in your

18 supplemental statement, which is at AD155.13, that you

19 found a bullet?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Which is now in the possession of the

22 Inquiry. I believe it is right that you are the

23 brother of John Duffy?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Who has already given evidence to this


Page 160


1 Inquiry?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Your brother told us that the day after

4 Bloody Sunday he went with his brother around the

5 Bogside area and found further bullets.

6 Were you the brother who was with him?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Finally, you must also be, I think it is

9 right, the son of Barman Duffy?

10 A. That is correct, yes.

11 Q. Could I show you a photograph, please, if we

12 could have P347 on the screen? If you could maximize

13 the left hand half of that photograph, please, does

14 that gentleman look like your father?

15 A. Yes, it is, yes.

16 Q. Thank you very much, those are all the

17 questions I have.

18 Questioned by MS SMYTH

19 MS SMYTH: Mr Duffy, my name is Patricia

20 Smyth and I represent the family of Michael Kelly who

21 was the first boy who was shot at the barricade.

22 I have some questions for you, Mr Duffy: you have told

23 the Tribunal that the majority of the people behind the

24 barricade were not throwing stones?

25 A. That is correct, yes.


Page 161


1 Q. I wonder could I ask you to look at a couple

2 of photographs you have not been shown as yet. If we

3 could look at P635. I wonder if I could have control

4 of the first screen, please? Mr Duffy, what I am going

5 to show you now, I am going to point out Michael Kelly

6 to you shortly before he was shot; do you see

7 Michael Kelly bending over slightly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know where you would have been at the

10 time that photograph was being taken, would you have

11 any idea?

12 A. I would say I would have been the middle of

13 the road somewhere.

14 Q. Would that have been close to Michael Kelly?

15 A. It would have been fairly close, yeah.

16 Q. A matter of a few feet?

17 A. Well, maybe yards.

18 Q. I wonder could we look at another photograph

19 of Michael Kelly before he was shot, 635. Again, if

20 that photograph could be lightened, please. Can you

21 see, Mr Duffy, that is another photograph of

22 Michael Kelly taken just shortly before he was shot?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It is clear from that photograph and from the

25 preceding photograph that Michael Kelly is simply


Page 162


1 standing with his arms down looking down

2 Rossville Street?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that would suggest, would it not, that

5 Michael Kelly was one of the majority of those people

6 who was not throwing stones or doing anything at that

7 barricade?

8 A. That is correct, yes.

9 Q. I wonder if I could show you an account,

10 Mr Duffy, an account that was given to the

11 Widgery Tribunal, by a soldier whose name is

12 Soldier F. That is at B140, if that could be put on

13 the screen, please.

14 Mr Duffy, Soldier F is the soldier who we

15 know from other evidence is the soldier who was

16 responsible for the death of Michael Kelly. What

17 I want you to look at is the account he gave to the

18 Tribunal in 1972 about what was going on at the

19 barricade before he opened fire. I wonder if

20 question 8 and question 9, if they could be

21 highlighted, please.

22 Mr Duffy, if you see three questions down,

23 what Soldier F is being asked is this:

24 "Question: As soon as you left the vehicle

25 in that position, what did you do or what came to your


Page 163


1 notice?

2 "Answer: As I left the vehicle, I heard

3 firing. I immediately cocked my weapon.

4 "Question: In which direction was the sound

5 of firing?

6 "Answer: The Rossville Flats."

7 Can I ask you this, Mr Duffy, did you hear

8 any firing from the Rossville Flats?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you hear any firing from the

11 Rossville Flats at any time that day?

12 A. No.

13 Q. If we could go to the bottom five questions

14 on that page, please, if they could be highlighted.

15 Soldier F has just explained that he took cover at

16 Kells Walk, Mr Duffy. What he is being asked is this:

17 "Question: Did you see anything further

18 happening then or hear anything?

19 "Answer: I saw two explosions just in front

20 of the barricade.

21 "Question: In front of this Rossville Street

22 barricade?

23 "Answer: Yes.

24 "Question: What sort of explosions were

25 they?


Page 164


1 "Answer: Nail bombs.

2 "Question: How far in front of the barricade

3 were they?

4 "Answer: About 40 metres."

5 Can I ask you, did you see or hear any nail

6 bombs being thrown or exploding in front of the

7 barricade?

8 A. No, definitely not.

9 Q. This is before Michael Kelly was shot,

10 Mr Duffy. If we could go to B141, please. If the top

11 half of the page could be highlighted. Halfway down

12 that highlighted piece, there has been a discussion

13 about the sounds et cetera made by nail bombs.

14 Soldier F is then asked this:

15 "Question: What did you do after that?

16 "Answer: After that, I was observing the

17 barricade when I saw a person attempting to throw what

18 looked like a nail bomb. It was fizzing in his hand.

19 I took an aimed shot and then the man with the bomb

20 fell to the ground."

21 Can I ask you this: did you see anyone with a

22 fizzing object in his hand before Michael Kelly was

23 shot?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How close were you to Michael Kelly at the


Page 165


1 time he was shot?

2 A. I would say I would have been at the middle

3 of the road and Michael would have been at the

4 barricade.

5 Q. A few yards. Do you think if Michael Kelly

6 had had a fizzing object in his hand that is something

7 you would have seen?

8 A. I am sure it would have been, yes.

9 Q. Soldier F was questioned again:

10 "Question: How did you know it was a nail

11 bomb which he was attempting to throw?

12 "Answer: I have seen nail bombs before,

13 I have been quite familiar with them.

14 "Question: Which hand had he got it in?

15 "Answer: Right hand

16 "Question: How was he throwing it when you

17 fired?

18 "Answer: At an angle, a side throw."

19 Did you see anything like that, Mr Duffy?

20 A. No, I did not, no.

21 Q. Can I ask you one further question: if we

22 look at photograph 636, please. In the middle of that

23 photograph on the ground we can see the body of

24 Michael Kelly, Mr Duffy; can you see that?

25 At the time of Bloody Sunday did you know a


Page 166


1 man called Danny Craig?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know him well?

4 A. Not really well, no.

5 Q. Do you recognise Mr Craig in that photograph?

6 A. Yes, I do, yes.

7 Q. Can you point him out; is he the man at the

8 front of the photograph?

9 A. (Marked with a blue arrow).

10 Q. Can I ask you, at the time you saw

11 Michael Kelly being shot and thrown backwards, did you

12 see Danny Craig anywhere near Michael Kelly that you

13 recall?

14 A. I do not recall that, no.

15 Q. Thank you very much for your help.

16 Questioned by MR COYLE

17 MR COYLE: Mr Duffy, my name is Coyle and

18 I appear for the family of Barney McGuigan. I want to

19 ask you about one matter: could I have Mr Duffy's

20 statement AD155.2, paragraph 11, please.

21 Mr Duffy, I want to ask you specifically

22 about one sentence in your statement. You see the last

23 sentence in that paragraph:

24 "More soldiers came out of the alleyway just

25 to the south of Kells Walk ...".


Page 167


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If I could take you to AD155.11, it is the

3 attachment I believe my learned friend Ms McGahey

4 showed you a few moments ago and you identified

5 yourself.

6 You see the photograph, looking northward:

7 in terms of time, when you say you saw the soldiers

8 coming out of the area south, or an alleyway south of

9 Kells Walk, is that the position you would have been

10 in?

11 A. The angle of the photograph, I would not be

12 too familiar with, but I just would not be totally

13 sure, no.

14 Q. Perhaps I could assist you with this --

15 LORD SAVILLE: Before you do, I notice,

16 Mr Duffy, right at the end of your statement when you

17 are dealing with this photograph, you are saying "I am

18 surprised that the barricade seems so close". We do

19 have in mind this is a very foreshortened photograph,

20 probably taken with a telephoto lens. I can understand

21 your comment if your recollection is you were not that

22 close, the photograph may well make you look closer to

23 the barricade than you in fact were?

24 A. It seems to be that the soldiers and the army

25 vehicles seem very, very close. I mean, I was not too


Page 168


1 sure about it.

2 LORD SAVILLE: I noticed that in your

3 statement, we all appreciate that you have to be quite

4 careful with this photograph because it is so

5 foreshortened.

6 MR COYLE: To assist you perhaps further,

7 mindful of the Chairman's comments, can I have

8 photograph P411.001.

9 Mr Duffy, this was an aerial photograph of

10 Rossville Street and you see the various areas marked

11 there, again Glenfada Park North and Kells Walk towards

12 the centre, and you will remember the Rossville Flats

13 block 1 is shown. This was not taken on the day, it is

14 an army photograph.

15 Can I point out to you the rubble barricade

16 being there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You see the area at Kells Walk where you

19 discuss with Ms McGahey in terms of the soldier coming

20 out from the wall.

21 In terms of your own location and the

22 intervention the Chairman made to assist, I wonder

23 could Mr Duffy be given control of the screen, please.

24 Mr Duffy, is it possible for you, with the

25 assistance of that photograph, give a better view to


Page 169


1 the Tribunal of where you were south of the rubble

2 barricade, in other words on the Free Derry side of the

3 rubble barricade?

4 A. (Marked by a light blue arrow).

5 Q. If you again could retain control of the

6 screen and mindful of the first portion of the

7 statement that I directed your attention back to, when

8 you say the soldiers came out of an alleyway south of

9 Kells Walk, you have marked that on your own

10 attachment.

11 Using that photograph, are you able to say

12 what part of Kells Walk or what alleyway they did come

13 out of?

14 A. I thought the soldiers initially were here

15 (marked by a light blue arrow), round this way.

16 Q. Coming out of there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. With reference to that, perhaps that could be

19 saved --

20 LORD SAVILLE: We could take the blue arrows

21 off and leave the white arrows on and save it. I am

22 afraid I do not know the number.

23 MS McGAHEY: AM155.15, sir.

24 MR COYLE: Could I refer you then back to an

25 attachment to your own statement, AD155.7. You see the


Page 170


1 soldiers moving southward along Rossville Street; were

2 they the soldiers to which you referred or were there

3 other soldiers who came out of another portion of

4 Kells Walk?

5 A. I think that is the soldiers I have seen move

6 forward.

7 Q. The soldiers who came out of Kells Walk, were

8 you able to say from where you were staying whether

9 they were in Kells Walk or whether they had moved along

10 the various walls as they run parallel to

11 Rossville Street?

12 A. I could not actually say exactly where they

13 come out of, but they seemed to be moving along the

14 wall and moving forward.

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Duffy.

16 Questioned by MR P CLARKE

17 MR CLARKE: Mr Duffy, my name is Peter Clarke

18 and I appear on behalf of a number of soldiers. Just

19 two matters really: when the crowd got angry at the

20 arrest they witnessed, were you one of the people who

21 were angry as well?

22 A. I probably was, yes.

23 Q. Most of the people who were angry at what was

24 happening were shouting?

25 A. Some of them were, yeah.


Page 171


1 Q. One would expect them to. They regarded what

2 was going on as outrageous?

3 A. That is correct, yes.

4 Q. Was there any way they were trying, that you

5 remember, to intimidate the soldiers in any way?

6 A. Not "intimidate" as such because I do not

7 think the soldiers could have been intimidated.

8 Q. You could intimidate a soldier with a nail

9 bomb, could you not?

10 A. You could probably, but there was not nail

11 bombs.

12 Q. It would probably make a soldier run away,

13 would it not?

14 A. I am sure it would, yeah.

15 Q. It would, would it not?

16 A. It would, yeah.

17 Q. So if you pretended to throw a nail bomb, the

18 soldier probably would not wait to see whether it was a

19 real one or not, would he?

20 A. I would have no idea how you would pretend to

21 throw a nail bomb.

22 Q. Had you not, no idea at all?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know what a nail bomb is?

25 A. I am sure I do, yes.


Page 172


1 Q. Could you help us, what is it?

2 A. It must be some sort of bomb with nails in

3 it.

4 Q. In it or round it?

5 A. Well, in it, round it, whatever.

6 Q. The explosive is in the middle, is it not?

7 A. I am sure it would be, yeah.

8 Q. Mr Duffy, come, in the Bogside in 1972 every

9 self-respecting young man of 18 would know how a nail

10 bomb worked, would he not?

11 A. It explodes and all the nails go all over the

12 place, yeah.

13 Q. Had you actually ever seen one at that time?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Never?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you seen photographs of them?

18 A. I am sure I have, yes.

19 Q. So, having seen photographs of them --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- would you not recognise one when it was in

22 someone's hand?

23 A. I am sure I would, yeah.

24 Q. How?

25 A. I am sure it would be big and bulky, there


Page 173


1 would be nails.

2 Q. Do you remember, as other witnesses have,

3 certainly one, that there was a chant of "hey, hey,

4 IRA" from the barrier?

5 A. I do not recall that, no.

6 Q. Do you not?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Are you sure?

9 A. I am sure, yeah.

10 Q. Do you think you missed that?

11 A. I may have, but ...

12 Q. And the second thing really as far as topics

13 are concerned: Hugh Gilmore you knew well?

14 A. I knew Hugh Gilmore, yeah.

15 Q. Certainly you waved to him at the beginning

16 of the march. We know -- I have no doubt you do --

17 that he was shot and died on the corner of the south

18 gable of block 1?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I am not going to show you photographs unless

21 you need to, Mr Duffy, it is not necessary. I want you

22 to help us about timing: you could not get in the door,

23 could you, of block 1?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So you had to flee southwards past the


Page 174


1 telephone box?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. We know that that is where Hugh Gilmore

4 collapsed and we have seen many photographs of people

5 seeing to him at that spot?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Have you actually seen any of those sort of

8 photographs in the past?

9 A. I have seen some of those photographs, yes.

10 Q. When you went past that corner, was there a

11 crowd over a body or was it free of anyone on the

12 ground?

13 A. I did not recall any body there, you know, at

14 that time, no.

15 Q. And probably not something you would have

16 missed?

17 A. Probably not, no.

18 Q. Because you knew what Hugh Gilmore looked

19 like?

20 A. I certainly would have seen a body there.

21 Q. And, to the best of your recollection,

22 Hugh Gilmore was there not as you went past?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Yes, thank you.

25 Questioned by MR ELIAS


Page 175


1 MR ELIAS: One matter, Mr Duffy, if you could

2 help us about it: the back of Joseph Place, you have

3 told the Tribunal, you went into the gardens and

4 skipped through a couple of gardens?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You could see the walls yourself from those

7 gardens?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you left the gardens, do you remember

10 now which way you made your way to Free Derry Corner,

11 by which route?

12 A. I continued along the alleyway and then

13 crossed over the bottom of Fahan Street.

14 Q. You went the whole length of the Joseph Place

15 houses, did you, before crossing down into

16 Fahan Street?

17 A. Initially, no, I probably stopped at the

18 first block and stayed there for a few moments or

19 whatever and then after the shooting had stopped I made

20 my way out of the alleyway and continued then towards

21 Free Derry Corner.

22 Q. So you went behind Joseph Place, the whole

23 length of it?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS McGAHEY: Sir, one further matter which


Page 176


1 has been brought to my attention: I understand,

2 Mr Duffy, that you believe that your father on

3 Bloody Sunday was slightly injured when a rubber bullet

4 was aimed at him; is that right?

5 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

6 Q. Did he tell you of the circumstances in which

7 this had occurred?

8 A. He told me the soldiers had tried to come

9 into the flats and he tried to prevent them because he

10 told them there was only women and children in the

11 flats and he was actually hit with a rubber bullet. He

12 grabbed the gun and pushed it down and hit him in the

13 leg. He had this in his pocket, you know, and the mark

14 of the rubber bullet is still there clearly to be seen.

15 Q. That is a snuff box; is that correct?

16 A. That is a snuff box, yes.

17 Q. You can make that available to Inquiry and to

18 the parties to the Inquiry?

19 A. Yes, I can, yes.

20 LORD SAVILLE: Did anyone want to ask any

21 further questions in relation to that, because it is a

22 separate matter from that with which Mr Duffy has been

23 dealing with today?

24 MR ELIAS: Sorry, sir, I do not want to ask a

25 question, I wanted to know whether this was information


Page 177


1 that the witness had given to the Tribunal before

2 today?

3 LORD SAVILLE: Not as far as, I think, the

4 Tribunal members are concerned, no, perhaps Ms McGahey

5 can help us.

6 MS McGAHEY: It was passed to me from the

7 solicitors, who I believe may have represented Mr Duffy

8 at the statement-taking stage, about 30 seconds ago.

9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Duffy, as I was about to

10 say: thank you very much indeed on behalf of the

11 Tribunal for coming here to assist the Inquiry, thank

12 you.

13 (The witness withdrew)

14 LORD SAVILLE: We seem to have timed today

15 quite well and, as I said earlier today, we will resume

16 here at 9.30 on Tuesday morning.

17 MS McGAHEY: Sir, one matter if I may on next

18 week's batting order. Two witness schedules have been

19 distributed today. The earliest one had a Mr Rigney as

20 the final witness of the week. A revised schedule has

21 now been distributed. Instead of Mr Rigney, the last

22 witness of the week will be Ms Teresa Cassidy, who is

23 at AC51. We apologise for any confusion we have

24 caused.

25 (3.05 pm)


Page 178


1 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on

2 Tuesday, 19th June 2001)

3 MR HUGH LOGUE, sworn

4 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 1

5 Questioned by SIR LOUIS BLOM-COOPER................. 44

6 Questioned by MR LAWSON............................. 51

7 Questioned by MR ELIAS.............................. 70

8 MR CHARLES COLUMBA MORRISON, sworn

9 Questioned by MR RAWAT.............................. 79

10 Questioned by MR KENNEDY........................... 113

11 Questioned by MR COYLE............................. 116

12 Questioned by MR O'HANLON.......................... 117

13 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 121

14 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 130

15 MR GAVAN DUFFY, sworn

16 Questioned by MS MCGAHEY........................... 135

17 Questioned by MS SMYTH............................. 160

18 Questioned by MR COYLE............................. 166

19 Questioned by MR P CLARKE.......................... 170

20 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 174