1 Thursday, 22nd June 2000
2 (9.32 am)
3 LORD SAVILLE: There are three matters we
4 should mention before I ask Mr Clarke to continue. The
5 first of those relates to the matter of employing a
6 military expert. It will be recalled that last week
7 the Tribunal indicated that it would consider this
8 matter after receipt of any questions which any
9 interested parties thought should and could properly be
10 put to a military expert, bearing in mind what I said
11 about not seeking to usurp the function of the Tribunal
12 by asking questions of the military expert which are
13 really questions for the Tribunal to answer.
14 We have received a list of questions from two
15 of the interested parties, which we will of course
16 distribute to all concerned. But in order to progress
17 this particular matter, we must require that anyone
18 else who wishes to put questions to a military expert
19 should formulate those questions and provide them to us
20 by noon on 28th June.
21 The second matter relates to the ruling we
22 made on 15th June in relation to the provision of
23 soldiers' signed statements. It will be recalled that
24 we ruled, in effect, that those soldiers who had had
25 statements for signature or for possible amendment for
1 more than a month before 15th June would have to
2 produce their signed statements by 30th July, failing
3 which the Tribunal proposed to distribute the draft
4 statement.
5 We should like to make clear that that must
6 be regarded as a rolling ruling. So, for example,
7 those soldiers who had statements for signature or
8 amendment for more than a month before today's date
9 will have to produce them by 6th August, and so on.
10 The final point relates, again, to the same
11 subject matter: the ruling was made in respect of
12 soldiers. We do today make a similar ruling in respect
13 of those statements from members or ex-members of the
14 RUC that have been outstanding for more than a month.
15 They are to be returned to us in a signed form by 30th
16 July, failing which we propose to distribute the
17 drafts. That ruling must also be regarded as a rolling
18 ruling.
19 Yes, Mr Clarke.
20 MR CLARKE: I spent quite a lot of time
21 yesterday referring to evidence which showed, or tended
22 to show, that Bernard McGuigan was shot from the west
23 of block 2. There are, however, other witnesses who
24 say or believe that he was shot from the walls. That,
25 as we saw yesterday, was Geraldine Richmond's original
1 view, and other witnesses give evidence in terms that
2 they believe that the shot which killed him came from
3 there.
4 Thus, if we take AM210.2, we will find the
5 second page of the statement of Bernard McFadden, who
6 was one of those at the south of block 1. The second
7 half of the page, please. He says at paragraph 13:
8 "After a while, the shooting stopped and
9 everything was very quiet. I do not know how long the
10 shooting had lasted as I have no precise concept of the
11 passage of time during the whole of Bloody Sunday.
12 Someone who I now know to be Bernard (Barney) McGuigan
13 had been crouching down to my left and slightly in
14 front of the wall against which I was sitting. He then
15 stood up and stepped away from the wall, taking a
16 couple of paces in a southerly direction. He did not
17 say anything at all as he stepped out. In fact
18 everything was very quiet as he did this. As he
19 stepped out, I noticed that he had a white handkerchief
20 wrapped around one of his hands, although I cannot
21 recall which one. I cannot now recall what clothes he
22 was wearing.
23 "14. I could not tell in which direction he
24 was heading and do not know why he stepped out. He
25 then stopped after a couple of steps, perhaps to look
1 around him, although I do not know. I then heard a
2 shot ring out. I was not looking at Barney McGuigan
3 when the shot rang out, so I immediately looked towards
4 him. I could see him through the gap between the
5 people in front of me. He had fallen to the floor.
6 "15. It was the first time I had seen a man
7 who had been shot. It is my recollection that his head
8 was nearest to me with his feet towards Free Derry
9 Corner. I have since seen photographs of Barney
10 McGuigan, all of which show his head pointing towards
11 Free Derry Corner and his feet nearer to the Rossville
12 flats. These photographs contradict my recollection of
13 the events. It is nonetheless my recollection that his
14 head was nearest to me. In particular, I recall seeing
15 his blood oozing out of his head. I remember being
16 quite surprised by this as I expected the blood to
17 spurt from his head which I thought it would do if
18 there was a head wound. It was clear that he had been
19 shot in the head.
20 "16. Although I did not know it at the time,
21 I later discovered that the army had been positioned
22 further north in Rossville Street. I do not believe
23 that the soldiers in Rossville Street could have seen
24 him to shoot him from where he was standing.
25 I believe, therefore, that he was shot from the city
1 walls."
2 That is in fact, as one can see from those
3 paragraphs, a process of deduction. He was not in fact
4 looking at Barney McGuigan when the shot rang out, as
5 appears in the second line down from the top of the
6 page. His belief that he was shot from the city walls
7 is based upon a belief that the soldiers in
8 Rossville Street could not have seen him. That would
9 be true unless they were very far down
10 Rossville Street, but that would not eliminate shots
11 coming from Glenfada Park North.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Does this witness say
13 precisely where he was?
14 MR CLARKE: Yes, he does somewhere, I think.
15 He was at the south of block 1. If we go back to the
16 previous page, paragraph 12:
17 "I was sitting on the ground with my back
18 against the south side of block 1 ..."
19 We saw yesterday the account of Brian McCool
20 who gave an account of Bernard McGuigan taking a couple
21 of steps backwards and then being shot, which would be
22 consistent with his being shot from the south and from
23 the walls. But, as the medical report indicates, the
24 mobility of the head is such that it can be facing not
25 quite in a 360 degree range, but it can be facing in
1 a different way from that of the rest of the body at
2 any material time.
3 Another account which is consistent with
4 Bernard McGuigan being shot from the walls appears at
5 AM247.3. It is the account of Patrick Michael
6 McGlinchey, who was 15 at the time, and was sheltering
7 behind the south side of the threepenny bits. At
8 paragraph 13, he says this:
9 "My attention was drawn to some men who were
10 running up the entranceway of one of the first three
11 houses (I am not sure which) in the north block of
12 Joseph Place, each of which I have marked with an X on
13 the map. They had their backs to me. I am not sure
14 where they had come from. As one of the men was about
15 seven or eight yards from the front door to the house,
16 he called out 'I am hit' and seemed to reach around to
17 his back. I believe he had been shot in the back. He
18 had black or brown hair. I believe he was wearing a
19 jumper, rather than a coat, and trousers of some sort.
20 At this time I could not see any soldiers but could
21 still hear shots being fired."
22 That is a reference to somebody being hit who
23 is presently unknown and unidentified. I think this is
24 the only evidence that relates to it:
25 "14. My attention then turned to a group of
1 about four or five men who were standing around the
2 gable end wall at the south of block 1 of the Rossville
3 flats. All of them, except one who I now know to be
4 Bernard McGuigan, were keeping down. Mr McGuigan was
5 standing up. He had his back to me and seemed to be
6 facing through the gap between blocks 1 and 2 of the
7 Rossville flats. He was waving a white handkerchief,
8 which I think he was holding in his right hand. There
9 is no way this could have been mistaken for a gun or a
10 bomb. I remember the hanky hung straight down because
11 there was no wind at all. I could not see his face.
12 He was wearing a half-length dark coat. I do not
13 remember whether he was wearing a scarf. He said two
14 or three times 'Do not shoot'. I could see it very
15 clearly. I heard a bang. Mr McGuigan crumpled and
16 fell sideways. I knew he had been shot.
17 "15. As soon as I saw that he was shot
18 I panicked and ran into one of the houses in
19 Joseph Place marked with an X."
20 So on that account he was shot whilst
21 apparently facing through the gap between blocks 1 and
22 2, crying "Do not shoot". But that account is markedly
23 at odds with other accounts of Mr McGuigan going out,
24 either to the southeast or the southwest, before he was
25 shot.
1 One possibility which the Tribunal will have
2 to consider is whether Bernard McGuigan could have
3 been, and, if so, whether he was, killed by a shot that
4 passed through the gap between blocks 1 and 2. As to
5 that, may we look at P312? This is a photograph of the
6 position at block 2. We can see the little building to
7 the right of the telephone box which appears to have in
8 front of it two men. We can see one in the immediate
9 foreground in light trousers bending down with either a
10 sheet or a banner. It is not clear to me whether or
11 not Mr McGuigan is under it, but what it seems to show
12 is that if that is the spot where he fell, or if the
13 spot where he fell is marked by that dark patch in the
14 very immediate foreground, it appears to show that it
15 would be difficult for him to have been shot through
16 the gap between blocks 1 and 2, but not perhaps
17 impossible.
18 If you look at another photograph, P824, this
19 is one of Mr Peress's photographs. That shows the
20 position of his body vis-a-vis the little building.
21 What the photographs may not make clear is the extent
22 to which any shot coming over the top of the
23 building -- or coming down from above the top of the
24 building -- could possibly have shot him. Obviously a
25 shot fired at ground level would meet the building in
1 front of which the three men are standing, but if we go
2 back to the previous photograph, 312, that building
3 itself has above it the open space between blocks 1 and
4 2. I am not sure that one can deduce that it is
5 impossible for a shot to have come from that direction;
6 except that if you look in that direction you see the
7 roofs -- what I assume are the chimney breasts -- of
8 the houses in Chamberlain Street, and nothing else from
9 which somebody could have shot.
10 There is, however, some civilian evidence
11 which tends to suggest that he was shot by a shot that
12 came from the car park. Included in that evidence is
13 the evidence of Kevin Barrett, which we will find at
14 AB26.3, in which he says at paragraph 18:
15 "As I came through the alleyway [that is
16 between blocks 1 and 2] I saw a man lying with blood
17 oozing out of him approximately at the point marked F
18 on the map. I assumed he had been shot perhaps a
19 minute or so before I saw him because there was a lot
20 of blood. He was obviously dead when I saw him.
21 I cannot remember hearing any shots being fired from
22 behind me as I went through the alleyway, but when
23 I saw the dead man I think I assumed that he had been
24 shot by the soldier I have just described, i.e. the
25 soldier in the courtyard. I could not understand why
1 the soldier had fired because he was in no danger.
2 People were extremely scared and trying to move away."
3 The soldier he has just described is the
4 soldier referred to in paragraphs 15 and 16, where he
5 had described seeing the door of the Saracen burst open
6 and one soldier come out. Two lines below that:
7 "As he stood at the back of the Saracen he
8 panned the rifle around towards the people trying to
9 make their way out of the car park through the alleyway
10 between blocks 1 and 2, but he did not shoot.
11 "16. He was a very tall soldier wearing
12 camouflage and a round hat. I think that he was a
13 coloured soldier as opposed to a soldier wearing black
14 face paint."
15 His evidence only goes so far as to
16 constitute an assumption that the man whom he saw had
17 been shot by a soldier in the courtyard. At paragraph
18 20 he says:
19 "I have seen video footage of the man I saw
20 lying at point F. I think I was standing next to the
21 person who was filming the video. It is my voice that
22 can be heard on that video. As I turned round,
23 I called back to the black soldier I had seen in the
24 car park 'You murdering bastard'.
25 "21. The dead man at point F was heavily
1 built, stocky but not fat, and wearing a dark coat and
2 trousers. He appeared to be in his fifties and was
3 lying with his arms by his side as though somebody had
4 laid him to rest. He was not sprawled out as I would
5 have expected him to be if he had been shot whilst
6 running. I think that his head was facing towards the
7 alleyway I had come through, but I cannot be sure.
8 I have since seen the attached photograph of this man
9 [that is one of the photographs of Bernard McGuigan].
10 This photograph shows him lying in a different position
11 to the position I remember. When I saw him there was
12 only about half the amount of blood around him as shown
13 in the photograph."
14 If, however, you go to AB26.7, the position
15 that he ascribes to Bernard McGuigan is at F, which is
16 at the southwest corner of block 1. It would seem an
17 impossibility that Bernard McGuigan could have been
18 shot whilst there by a soldier within the car park of
19 the Rossville flats.
20 Another witness is Hugh Barber, whose
21 evidence appears at AB10.5. He was just under the
22 veranda at the south side of block 2, just under the
23 canopy, when he saw Bernard McGuigan shot. He says at
24 paragraph 27:
25 "It was then that I saw Barney McGuigan
1 shot. I have a very clear recollection of Mr McGuigan
2 standing in the gap between block 1 and block 2, at the
3 point marked K [which is just between block 1 and block
4 2]. He was very animated standing up and waving his
5 arms. I think he was holding and waving a white
6 handkerchief, but I may have got this memory confused
7 with pictures that I have seen of Father Daly doing the
8 same. Mr McGuigan was shouting to somebody through the
9 gap who I could not see. He was shouting 'Please,
10 please, help -- do not shoot me'. I cannot remember
11 his exact words but I remember the pleading tone in his
12 voice. He was showing himself in clear view and was
13 not trying to hide. He had nothing in his hand except
14 for the handkerchief and was wearing a coat that came
15 just below his waist. I do not remember him wearing a
16 scarf. He was perhaps three yards away from me to the
17 northwest. I have a very animated vision of him
18 standing there.
19 "28. It seemed to me that Mr McGuigan was
20 shot in the face. I have a recollection that he was
21 shot in his left cheek and I remember seeing blood
22 there. The next clear picture that I have in my head
23 is of Barney McGuigan lying on his back on the ground
24 and his body shaking."
25 On that account he would have been facing to
1 the gap between block 1 and block 2. If he was shot in
2 the left cheek he would have been shot by somebody from
3 the north, if he was facing northeast -- if he was
4 facing that way. The difficulty with that account is
5 that, as we now know, Barney McGuigan was not shot in
6 the left cheek; he was shot in the back of the head on
7 the left-hand side by a bullet that passed through into
8 the right eye.
9 If we go then to AG39.3, we will find the
10 evidence of Floyd Gilmore, who was in 23 Garvan Place,
11 the flat of his parents, in block 2, approximately in
12 the middle. He says at paragraph 18, the bottom half
13 of the page:
14 "As I looked out of the south side of the
15 flat I was unable to see any soldiers. However,
16 I could see the small stone structures which we called
17 the threepenny bits. They have now been knocked down,
18 but used to stand on the south side of block 2, between
19 Rossville Street and the northern end of Joseph Place
20 at the point marked C. There were lots of people
21 crouched down behind the east and south sides of the
22 threepenny bits and I noticed that there were bullet
23 holes on the northern side. I could also see the
24 occasional puff of dust flying up from the northern
25 side of the threepenny bits as if they were being hit
1 by something hard. I assumed at the time that the
2 soldiers who were standing at the northern entrance to
3 the Rossville flats' car park were firing towards the
4 crowd in the gap between blocks 1 and 2 and that the
5 bullets were coming out the other side and hitting the
6 threepenny bits. I do not think that the soldiers on
7 Rossville Street were hitting the threepenny bits
8 because, if this had been the case, then the bullet
9 holes would have been on the west side of the
10 threepenny bits and not the northern side. I did not
11 see anybody else who appeared to have been shot or
12 injured while I was looking south out of the flat
13 towards Joseph Place."
14 That is not of course any evidence directly
15 relating to Bernard McGuigan, but it is evidence of
16 shots hitting the northern side of the threepenny bits
17 which he thinks can only have come from blocks 1 and
18 2. If we look at P310 we can see a picture of one of
19 the threepenny bits; indeed that threepenny piece
20 closest to the junction between blocks 1 and 2. To my
21 eye it seems possible that a shot could in fact have
22 come from Rossville Street, at least to the south and
23 west of it, and hit what could be described as the
24 north side of the threepenny bits; though, since they
25 are hexagonal, the expression "north side" is
1 ambiguous. But a shot fired from somebody on the
2 ground, at least in the angle shown by this photograph,
3 could hit a threepenny bit, coming through the gap we
4 can see on the photograph. Though it would appear to
5 stand a fair chance of hitting the brick structure --
6 I cannot remember whether it is an incinerator or waste
7 disposal unit -- which stands to the south of block 1.
8 What this photograph does confirm is that if
9 you look through the gap -- not at ground level, but
10 look upwards -- what you get to are the chimney pots of
11 the back of Chamberlain Street.
12 What you also get further to the north is the
13 Embassy building. If one assumes a shot from the top
14 of the Embassy building it could come the way I am now
15 showing in yellow and could hit the threepenny bits.
16 Whether or not it could come the opposite way is a bit
17 difficult to tell from the photograph, but it may be
18 so.
19 May we then look at AH39.5, which is a
20 portion of the statement of Thomas Harrigan, who
21 remembers a Mr Devlin being hit in the temple by
22 masonry which fell off the south gable end of block 1,
23 apparently on its eastern side. What he says at
24 paragraph 26, is this:
25 "The only other thing which happened whilst
1 I was standing close to the telephone box was that
2 Mr Devlin (his family nickname at the time was 'Ding')
3 was hit in the temple by masonry which flew off the
4 south gable end of block 1. This occurred just before
5 the other two men fell. I believe Mr Devlin was
6 standing in the alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 behind
7 the telephone box, looking out at me at point Z on the
8 attached map. I am not sure which direction the bullet
9 which hit block 1 came from, but I think he was hit in
10 the temple at the same time as I heard the bullets
11 fired and saw the two men fall."
12 The two men are, as appears from paragraph 25
13 at the top, Barney McGuigan and, on the previous page,
14 Hugh Gilmore. If we go to the map at AH39.9 point Z is
15 in between blocks 1 and 2.
16 The bullet that killed Bernard McGuigan, as
17 we have seen, passed through his right lower eyelid and
18 a piece of that eyelid embedded itself in a wall, which
19 was either the gable end wall of block 1 or that of
20 block 2. If we may have AM191.2, we will find the
21 statement to this Tribunal of John McDevitt, paragraph
22 11, where he says this:
23 "I walked from St. Columb's Wells north
24 towards the area to the south of block 2 of the
25 Rossville flats where I saw the body of Barney McGuigan
1 between the south gable end of block 1 and the western
2 gable end of block 2. A few people were around his
3 body weeping. I noticed a red patch on the gable end
4 wall of block 2 of the flats, above the shops, with a
5 trickle of blood running down. I looked at the wall
6 and saw something that looked like either an eyebrow or
7 an eyelid with eyelashes on it. It was five and a half
8 feet up on the wall on my right. I took the
9 eyebrow/eyelid down and put it in a match box.
10 I thought that it must be Barney McGuigan's
11 eyebrow/eyelid. I saw that Barney had a black coat on
12 and I put the match box in one of Barney's coat
13 pockets. I do not know what happened to the
14 eyebrow/eyelid after that."
15 Evidence to similar effect is given by John
16 Patrick Friel, AF32, paragraph 31; Bernard Gallagher at
17 AG3; Noel Moore at AM417; Sarah Moore at AM420; and
18 James Toye at AT13; we need not look these up. There
19 is also a lot of evidence, not all of it consistent, as
20 to what happened to the eyelid thereafter. But there
21 are a number of different accounts of where the eyelid
22 was found and what happened to it, not consistent with
23 the one I have just read or, necessarily, with each
24 other. I simply tabulate the nature of the evidence.
25 Some witnesses speak of the eyelid being on
1 the gable end of block 1 or that there was a blood mark
2 where it had been. They include Eileen Doherty at
3 AD64; Noel Joseph Doherty, AD92; Gerald Oliver
4 McEleney, AM197; and Charles McGill, AM230. Other
5 witnesses say that the eyelid was found on the gable
6 end of block 2, but that it was they who found it.
7 That is John Duffy, AD160 and Mickey Rooney, AR28.
8 Others say that the eyelid was found, but at neither of
9 the two gable ends. Thus Eileen Collins at AC72.4 says
10 in paragraph 22:
11 "Early the next morning some children were
12 playing near the seating area which was near the
13 northwest corner of block 2 of the Rossville flats.
14 I have marked the approximate position at K on the
15 map. The seating area, which was built of concrete was
16 in the shape of five threepenny bits. A small boy was
17 picking bullets out of the side wall of one of the
18 concrete seats that was facing block 2 of the Rossville
19 flats. He came to me because he had found something
20 else stuck to the wall. When I looked I saw that it
21 was part of an eyelid. It was stuck on the side, about
22 half a yard down from the top of the seat. I realised
23 that it must have come from somebody who had been shot
24 and so I put it into a match box."
25 I then come to the position in relation to
1 the scarf. When Bernard McGuigan fell he did not have
2 upon him the scarf, that later covered his face, which
3 was heavily impregnated with lead particles. That that
4 was so is apparent from a number of photographs.
5 Before we come to them, can we just look at
6 D2.414, which is the Department of Industrial and
7 Forensic Sciences report in relation to Bernard
8 McGuigan. It will be seen from that that there was
9 received for examination item 3, which is a blue and
10 yellow scarf. That is not the one of importance. Item
11 12 "maroon/yellow/light green scarf"; under the heading
12 "Examination: clothing", the report records that:
13 "Lead particle density on the scarf was very
14 high".
15 There are then details about the hand swabs.
16 The conclusion:
17 "The nature and distribution of lead
18 particles on the hand swabs and anorak is similar to
19 that produced by exposure to discharge gases from
20 firearms. These gases, containing minute particles of
21 lead, issue from openings at the breech and also from
22 the muzzle."
23 In relation to that we have seen the report
24 from Dr Lloyd as to the view he takes of those
25 findings. In the last paragraph, it reads this:
1 "Lead particle density and distribution
2 similar to that found on the scarf was produced in
3 tests on a piece of fabric by using it to wrap up a
4 revolver which had been fired several times."
5 In relation to the scarf in question, if we
6 look at EP26.18 we will find the beginning of a
7 sequence of Mr Grimaldi's photographs. If we go to 19,
8 the next one in the sequence shows Patrick Doherty.
9 Then 20; we can see there Mr McGuigan without a scarf.
10 21 is the same, as is 22 and 23.
11 Similarly it is a convenient moment to look
12 at Mr Peress's photographs in sequence. If we take
13 P813 there is a series of photographs. This is the
14 sequence in which they were taken by Mr Peress. Can
15 you go through 813 until 839, please?
16 It is plain from those photographs that when
17 Mr McGuigan fell there was not upon him the scarf with
18 which we are concerned. If you could now go to P731,
19 you can see just in this photograph that a scarf has
20 been placed on the body, and a blanket is being placed
21 on top of the body with the scarf upon it. The man who
22 is bending over who is bearded, as one can see in the
23 photograph in hard copy but not on the screen, is
24 Patrick Anthony Clarke(?). If you go to P458 you will
25 see what appears to be the position moments later when
1 the man with the beard, Patrick Clarke, is kneeling
2 down to the right-hand side of the body. If you go to
3 459, the next photograph, that is said by Mr Clarke in
4 fact to be immediately before 458 and he is, I think,
5 in the act of placing the blanket on the body and
6 somebody has what looks as if it is the banner on the
7 left-hand side. If you go to 460 there is another shot
8 of the same scene. Thereafter there are a series of
9 pictures, if you can go from 462 to 465, showing ...
10 The scarf in question, is referred to in the
11 report as being "maroon, yellow and green stripes". A
12 photograph we need not look at, which shows the scarf
13 in colour, can be found in bundle P2 at page 175.
14 Where that scarf came from and whose it was is
15 unknown.
16 Mrs McGuigan's evidence, accepted by
17 Lord Widgery, was that Bernard McGuigan did not own a
18 scarf. As we have seen, the postmortem report
19 describes both a blue and yellow scarf as having been
20 removed from the body and a maroon, yellow and green
21 scarf as having accompanied it. It is the latter with
22 which we are concerned and it is the latter that was
23 placed upon him after he had died.
24 Evidence in relation to that appears at
25 AC64.6 in the evidence of Patrick Anthony Clarke, who
1 was one of those who dragged Pius McCarron -- who was
2 hit with masonry as he went through blocks 2 and 3 --
3 into the first house in Joseph Place. He looked out of
4 a letter box and saw people at the south end of block 1
5 and heard them calling for help and then crawled
6 towards block 1 from the flat in Joseph Place. At
7 paragraph 17, he describes what happened:
8 "As I crawled out of the flat, I stayed as
9 low as I could. There was another burst of shooting
10 and I lay down still on the ground for a few minutes.
11 I was lying just outside the perimeter fence of the
12 gardens of Joseph Place, at the point marked I. There
13 was a Saracen at the junction of Glenfada Park and the
14 rubble barricade at the point marked J. It was facing
15 south towards Free Derry Corner. I could also see a
16 body on the rubble barricade, at the edge of the garden
17 wall. The approximate position of this body is marked
18 at point K."
19 If we could look at the map AC64.18 what he
20 is describing is being at the point marked I and seeing
21 a Saracen at the point marked J and a body at the point
22 marked K. This is almost certainly the Saracen that
23 came down to pick up the body at the barricade.
24 Going back to AC64.6, he says, in paragraph
25 17, four lines up from the bottom:
1 "I do not remember anything about this body.
2 I remember a soldier lying across the bonnet of the
3 Saracen aiming his gun towards me. There was another
4 soldier, who was aiming towards Joseph Place or Free
5 Derry Corner (I am not certain which). He was standing
6 at the back (to the north) of the Saracen.
7 "18. I could hear a man speaking in an
8 English accent through a loud hailer in the street. He
9 was ordering us not to move or we would be dead. I did
10 not look up at the soldier who spoke so I cannot say
11 where he was or what he looked like, but I believe that
12 the voice was coming from the direction of the Saracen
13 that I have already described at point J. I then heard
14 more shots fired. There were lulls in the shooting,
15 but I did not move as I did not know if the shooting
16 would start up again. During one particular lull in
17 the firing, I was lying prone on the ground on my
18 stomach. My head, however, was facing towards a
19 Saracen which I could see side-on. I only had eye
20 movement. I could not move any other part of my body
21 except my eyes for fear that I would be shot. I saw
22 soldiers pick up two bodies off the rubble barricade
23 and throw them head first into the back of the Saracen
24 at point J like carcasses. I am sure of this, even
25 though I only recall seeing one body on the rubble
1 barricade when I had looked earlier. With hindsight
2 I believe that the order from the loud hailer was given
3 to enable the army to move the bodies off the rubble
4 barricade and withdraw without any trouble or
5 interference.
6 "19. There was a man lying beside me to the
7 north who was dead. I did not know who he was at the
8 time. I then heard the revving of a vehicle and heard
9 doors open and shut and heard the whine of an engine in
10 reverse.
11 "20. I then peeped up and took another look
12 at the dead body next to me. It was lying at the point
13 marked L on the attached map. There were other people
14 huddled around the telephone kiosk at the south gable
15 end of block 1, and there was another body lying at the
16 point marked M on the map. I got up and went over to
17 the body lying at point L and saw that it was someone
18 I knew called Barney McGuigan."
19 Go to 64.18, the map. The map gives as point
20 M approximately the position of Hugh Gilmore, but
21 actually rather further out than the photographs show,
22 and the position of Bernard McGuigan in a different
23 spot from that which the photographs show, that is to
24 say in line with about a fifth of the way down from the
25 northwest corner of block 2.
1 Back to AC64.7:
2 "When I reached Mr McGuigan I knelt down and
3 said a prayer over him. His body was crumpled,
4 contorted with half of his face gone. I could not
5 recognise him at first. I knew Mr McGuigan to say
6 'Hello' to. His family home was only two streets away
7 from my own home. I did not know him intimately.
8 "21. Mr McGuigan was lying with his head
9 facing south towards Joseph Place. His left leg was
10 underneath his right leg, which was twisted over and
11 crumpled. He was lying on his back and was obviously
12 dead. He was wearing a car coat, which was three
13 quarter length with a collar. He was definitely not
14 wearing a scarf when I reached him. I removed
15 Mr McGuigan's shoes not for any particular reason -- it
16 just seemed like the right thing to do. I then
17 straightened up his legs. I removed my sheepskin coat
18 to place it over him. Before I managed to cover up his
19 body a man I know called Eamonn Melaugh approached
20 Mr McGuigan and started taking photographs. I told him
21 in no uncertain terms to go away. Melaugh said that
22 the world needed to know what had happened that day.
23 I replied that the world did not need to see these
24 photographs. Certainly his family did not need to see
25 how he had been killed. I hope that his family never
1 have to see them. Those photographs were in the
2 newspapers in colour shortly after Bloody Sunday but
3 I could only bring myself to look at them about two
4 months ago.
5 "22. I placed my coat over him. A lady then
6 leaned out of a window of a flat in block 2 and I spoke
7 to her about her throwing down a blanket to cover up
8 the body. Whilst I was talking to the lady, someone
9 put the scarf over Mr McGuigan to cover up his face and
10 prevent any further photographs being taken. I did not
11 see who had placed the scarf over Mr McGuigan.
12 Meanwhile, the lady I had been speaking to in block 2
13 of the Rossville flats threw a blanket out down to me.
14 I put the blanket over Mr McGuigan and took my coat
15 back. As I covered up Mr McGuigan it was getting
16 towards dusk. Attached to this statement are three
17 photographs marked as attachments, 8, 9 and 10. I do
18 not know who took photograph numbered 8, but
19 photographs 9 and 10 were taken by Eamonn Melaugh.
20 Attachment 8 is a photograph taken of the body of
21 Mr McGuigan before he has been covered up with a
22 blanket. The man on the left of that picture with a
23 camera around his neck is Eamonn Melaugh. I am
24 kneeling down by the body of Barney McGuigan and I can
25 be clearly seen there."
1 That photograph is EP26.25. This is one of
2 Mr Grimaldi's photographs. The photographer he is
3 talking about is on the left. The other two
4 photographs we saw a moment ago.
5 Back to AC64.7, please. The bottom half of
6 the page:
7 "The photograph marked as attachment 9 was
8 taken after 8. In this photograph it can be clearly
9 seen that a scarf had been placed over Mr McGuigan's
10 head and that a blanket is about to be laid over him.
11 I am standing immediately to the right of Mr McGuigan,
12 and just behind his head. My leg and arms are clear in
13 that photograph."
14 Then he simply identifies the photographs we
15 have already seen:
16 "23. From that point everything seemed to
17 happen in slow motion. I could not believe that all
18 this had happened and that people had been shot taking
19 part in a peaceful civil rights march. I was stunned
20 by it all. My mind was still working -- and I was
21 trying to comprehend why it all happened.
22 "24. Ambulances had arrived in the general
23 area by this time."
24 If you go to AC64.2, you will find his NICRA
25 statement, in which he puts the matter slightly
1 differently in the sense that in the second paragraph
2 on this page he says:
3 "I covered up the body of Barney McGuigan
4 with my jacket, removed his shoes and straightened his
5 legs from the crumpled position he was lying in. At
6 this particular point an elderly lady came towards me
7 with a blanket and, seeing that I had used my jacket to
8 cover Mr McGuigan, turned towards the gable wall of the
9 high flats where she used the blanket to cover the body
10 of young Gilmore. Another lady came with a second
11 blanket. This I then used to completely cover the body
12 of Mr McGuigan in place of my jacket. By this time the
13 army had pulled back to the William Street end of the
14 flats and had taken up a position there."
15 So the blanket is brought by an elderly lady
16 and another lady comes with a second one, rather than
17 throwing it down from a flat. There is no mention in
18 the statement of the scarf.
19 One of the persons referred to must be Ursula
20 Clifford, whose statement appears at AC68.4 at
21 paragraph 23. She has described getting to her Aunty
22 Bridie's flat which is in Glenfada Park South. At
23 paragraph 22 she says this:
24 "As we got to the door to Aunty Bridie's flat
25 to go outside I felt so afraid but my objective was to
1 get across the street to the bodies. I knew I had to
2 summon up the courage to do what I felt I ought to
3 do ...
4 "23. We crouched down and edged across the
5 street. Aunt Bridie [I should say that she is Brigitte
6 Sharkey] was in front and to my left as we huddled
7 together and edged across the street. I was using her
8 as a shield as I could not believe that anyone would
9 shoot her as she was an older woman. As we edged
10 across the street the soldiers stood and watched us.
11 They were wearing combat gear and carrying rifles. As
12 we looked at them they stared straight back at us.
13 They were not doing anything, but they looked very
14 tense. I seem to recall shouting at them, not using
15 bad language, but saying something to the effect of
16 'Why did you do it?'. The soldiers said nothing, they
17 did not even flinch. They looked tense, which
18 I believe was either their reaction to what had
19 happened or what they had done. I cannot remember
20 anything else going on around us and there was total
21 silence as we edged across. All I can remember now is
22 Aunt Bridie and I crossing the road and getting to the
23 other side. I was not aware of any shooting taking
24 place during that time but I thought it might start
25 again.
1 "24. The first body I got to was a younger
2 man (who I now know to have been Hugh Gilmore) wearing
3 jeans and a cropped jumper. Someone had taken off his
4 shoes and placed them next to him. I can remember his
5 socks, which looked like new; they had no holes in
6 them; they looked perfect. I took his pulse. I cannot
7 remember now whether there was a pulse; all I can
8 remember is that it was futile. I knew by the colour
9 of his face that he was either dead or about to die.
10 His eyes may have been open, although not necessarily
11 because he was alive. I covered his face and body with
12 one of the blankets. The blanket was a dull cream
13 colour and I arranged it neatly over his face and body
14 although it was not long enough and did not cover his
15 feet. There was no risk that I was going to suffocate
16 him because nothing more could be done for him. At
17 least he now had his dignity restored."
18 She refers to a photograph, which we have
19 already seen, with the body and the blanket placed on
20 it:
21 "25. I then went to the other man (who I now
22 know to have been Barney McGuigan). A short coat had
23 been placed over his head. The coat was dark coloured,
24 although I cannot remember the precise colour. I would
25 describe it as a man's jacket or coat, not a teenager's
1 jacket. There was blood on the pavement all around the
2 coat. I lifted the coat. Mr McGuigan's head was lying
3 with his right side down on the ground. There was a
4 large gaping wound on the side of his face. There was
5 a lot of blood all around him which had become sticky
6 and started to congeal. It was obviously a gunshot
7 wound to his head and must have happened a little while
8 earlier for the blood to have begun to congeal. I
9 cannot recall what I did with the coat once I had
10 removed it from his head. I have no memory of what
11 Mr McGuigan was wearing and, in particular, whether or
12 not he had a scarf. I think the reason I cannot
13 remember what he was wearing was because I did not have
14 a full picture of him when I first saw him properly as
15 I had to lift the coat from his head to look at him.
16 There was no one immediately around us as Aunt Bridie
17 helped me to cover him up with one of the other
18 blankets. I seem to recall people yelling at us to get
19 in as they thought we were going to get shot."
20 It looks from those statements as if Bernard
21 McGuigan's body was first covered with Mr Clarke's
22 coat, then by someone with a scarf, and then the
23 blanket replaced the coat, the blanket having come from
24 Ursula Clifford and her aunt.
25 I now want to deal with the Armoured
1 Personnel Carrier that came down Rossville Street. The
2 photographs, some of which you have already seen, show
3 the appearance and disappearance of that car. The
4 sequence of Mr Peress's photographs in this respect
5 begins at page P813.3, which we were looking at
6 yesterday, where we can see the arrival of the APC at
7 the south of Glenfada Park North. P814 -- where the
8 vehicle has got a little further south, and P815 --
9 where it has got a second or so more in time south.
10 Two of Mr Grimaldi's photographs appear to be
11 later in time. They are EP26.20, where the vehicle is
12 in the mouth of Glenfada Park North. EP26.21 may in
13 fact precede EP26.20 because the vehicle, see its
14 wheels as we were discussing earlier, appears to be at
15 this moment reversing into Glenfada Park North from
16 which it exited and went back up Rossville Street, as
17 appears from P820 where, by now, the vehicle has
18 disappeared.
19 LORD GIFFORD: We have to be a little wary,
20 do we not, in assuming that the vehicles depicted in
21 Mr Peress's photographs have moved, because it is also
22 evident that the photographer has moved and is taking
23 shots at -- if one looks at the foot of Mr Gilmore, one
24 sees that it is at a different angle in relation to the
25 upright. I just sound that as a note of warning.
1 LORD SAVILLE: 814 and 815?
2 LORD GIFFORD: The photographer has clearly
3 moved.
4 LORD SAVILLE: In those two photographs?
5 LORD GIFFORD: Yes.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I follow that.
7 LORD GIFFORD: So that whether the vehicle
8 has moved is perhaps difficult to deduce. The fact
9 that it is in a different position in relation to the
10 column of the canopy does not necessarily indicate that
11 it has actually moved.
12 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, I agree with that.
13 MR CLARKE: At some stage in the afternoon,
14 after Bernard McGuigan's body had been covered up,
15 there came from somewhere a volley of shots that caused
16 people to scatter. The event is described by Alan
17 Harkens at AH8.4. He says, bottom of the page at
18 paragraph 18, in relation to Bernard McGuigan:
19 "There were a couple of people standing
20 around him, one of whom was Jack Murray, a lad from
21 Wexford, who lived next door to me at 15
22 Harvey Street."
23 He identifies him in a photograph.
24 Unfortunately I cannot see in the photograph who he has
25 identified. Perhaps somebody will chase that up. He
1 says at 18:
2 "I remember Jack picking up Barney McGuigan's
3 eyelid and putting it into a match box.
4 "19. I cannot recall how long I was standing
5 around there, but there was then what I would describe
6 as a blather of shots. By this I mean there was a
7 rapid succession of shots, numbering at least six.
8 I do not know whether they came from an SLR or a
9 machine gun. At the time I heard the shots, I think
10 I had turned around and was facing in a northeasterly
11 direction towards the gap between blocks 1 and 2. My
12 impression was that the shots had come from the
13 direction of Rossville Street, to the north of me.
14 "20. After hearing the shots everyone in the
15 crowd seemed to scatter, trying to get into cover.
16 Most of the people headed towards the southern side of
17 block 2, trying to take cover under the canopy there.
18 However, I think that when the shots were fired
19 I stayed where I was. I remember Jack Murray standing
20 over Barney McGuigan's body and putting his hands out,
21 away from his body, ensuring that no one ran over
22 Barney McGuigan's body in the scramble to get to
23 cover.
24 "21. The blather of shots then ended.
25 People nearby were talking and saying there were other
1 bodies around."
2 That is an incident that can be seen on the
3 actuality video, where there is a shot of Bernard
4 McGuigan's body and there is a blather of shots on the
5 soundtrack. A young man can be seen kneeling down and
6 extending both his arms outwards to stop people from
7 trampling on the body of Bernard McGuigan.
8 The same incident, I think, is described in
9 the statement of Colm O'Domhnaill at AO19.5, where he
10 says this, bottom half of the page:
11 "32. The next thing I recall is an ambulance
12 drawing up. I moved round by the rubble barricade,
13 nearer the entrance to block 1 of the Rossville flats.
14 It was by now about 5.00 but it was still quite
15 bright. There was a Pig at the point marked F [the
16 point marked F is just to the northwest of block 1].
17 There were some soldiers standing there. There was
18 talk of bringing people out from the canopied entrance
19 to block 1 to put them in the ambulance.
20 "33. I recall Father Mulvey going towards
21 the soldiers at point F; I do not know what for. After
22 that someone was brought out of block 1 of the
23 Rossville flats on a stretcher and taken towards the
24 ambulance. As the body was being carried to the
25 ambulance there was a sharp volley of fire which seemed
1 to come almost casually from the direction of the Pig
2 at point F on the map. I was in shock that they were
3 firing at an ambulance. I wondered what on earth was
4 going on. It was very strange. Father Mulvey said
5 'Stop shooting you stupid bastards'. They stopped
6 shooting. Several people had dived to the ground,
7 including the ambulance men. Father Mulvey had not
8 gone to the ground, almost as if he was defying them.
9 I do not think I dived down either. It was almost as
10 if the shots were fired as a parting gesture. They did
11 not hit anyone."
12 If we look at AO19.23, we will find the map.
13 Point F is, as I said, northwest of block 1. It may be
14 that the shots here described are the last shots,
15 parting shots only in the sense that they were the last
16 ones of members of the Anti-Tank Platoon who, according
17 to their evidence, towards the end of the affair fired
18 at targets in block 1 from a position approximately
19 where point F appears on the plan.
20 There is a similar account, which there is no
21 need to read, from Michael Rooney at AR28 paragraph 20.
22 Before I leave this sector I want to draw
23 together the evidence of a number of witnesses who
24 speak of seeing bullet holes in various different
25 places attributable to the events of Bloody Sunday. We
1 have already seen one of them, Floyd Gilmore, who said
2 that he saw shots land on the north side of the
3 threepenny bit, but he is not the only one who does
4 so. If we go to AB77.2 we will find the evidence of
5 Hugh Breslin, who says at paragraph 8, the bottom half
6 of the page:
7 "I ran through the gap between blocks 1 and 2
8 of the Rossville flats towards the hexagonal shapes to
9 the west of Joseph Place known as the threepenny bits.
10 When I reached the northernmost hexagonal shape I lay
11 on my front on the eastern side of the shape with my
12 face down. I attach a further photograph to my
13 statement. I was lying at position F in photograph 2
14 with my head pointing towards Glenfada Park South and
15 my feet pointing towards the second or third maisonette
16 at Joseph Place. There were about two or three other
17 people with me in this location. I sensed that I would
18 be at great risk if shooting took place between blocks
19 1 and 2 of the Rossville flats."
20 AB77.5 shows where position F is. You can
21 see the hexagonal threepenny bits and how he is, as
22 described, on the east side of the northernmost one.
23 If we then go back to 77.3, at paragraph 9 he says:
24 "As I lay at position F, I heard the sound of
25 two ricochetted bullets bouncing off the pavement at
1 position G on the attached map and saw a puff of dust
2 rise from that position. I believe that these were
3 ricochets of bullets fired from the city walls because
4 of the direction of the bullets as they bounced off the
5 pavement. However, I did not see anyone firing from
6 the walls."
7 If we go to AB77.6 -- we do not have the
8 map. Can somebody give me Q8? Position G as described
9 is approximately where I have put the arrow, that is to
10 say in line with about a third of the way down block 2
11 from the northwest gable, and facing approximately the
12 second hexagon down from the north on that map.
13 If we go to AC33.3, in paragraph 15
14 Frank Carlin says:
15 "After Barney McGuigan had been shot, I went
16 from the telephone box towards Joseph Place. I went
17 first to the area described as the threepenny bits
18 shown marked on the photograph. I crouched down behind
19 a wall, which formed the shape of one of the threepenny
20 bits, sheltering at about the point I have marked on
21 the attached photograph. I remember seeing bullets
22 just feet from where I was. They seemed to be coming
23 down towards me from above. The wall I was sheltering
24 behind was about three feet high, but I had my back to
25 it, facing Rossville Street. I could hear the bullets
1 catch on something in front of me and therefore
2 I assumed that they had come from behind me, from the
3 direction of the Derry walls."
4 The photograph is at AC33.6. So he describes
5 himself as sheltering with his back to one of the
6 hexagonal shapes on the west side of the threepenny bit
7 complex, the set of hexagons.
8 If we go to AD15.3, we will find the evidence
9 of Eamonn Deanne. He says at paragraph 22:
10 "The next day the school was closed. Local
11 teachers had arranged to meet at a nearby school. On
12 my way to that meeting I walked through the area where
13 the shooting had taken place. I walked through Free
14 Derry Corner and up Rossville Street. I expected to
15 see a large number of bullet holes in the road and in
16 buildings and at Free Derry Corner but was surprised
17 that I did not see any at all. This did not square
18 with my impression the previous day of firing directed
19 at Free Derry Corner. I do recall seeing several
20 bullet holes in the threepenny bits to the south of
21 block 2 of the Rossville flats. These bullet holes
22 were on the northern side of the threepenny bits."
23 If we may turn to AG51.7, we will find the
24 evidence of Leonard Green who, at paragraph 13, says:
25 "The following day I went into the Bogside to
1 talk to a few people. Whilst I was there I saw what
2 I believed to be a number of fresh bullet holes in and
3 around the area of the Rossville flats. To the south
4 of block 2 of the flats there was an underground
5 telephone junction box. The telephone cable connected
6 to this ran up the side of the northeast facing gable
7 end wall of block 2. The approximate position of the
8 cable is marked with an arrow at G on the map. The
9 cable was capped by semi cylindrical casing coated by
10 galvanised steel. The casing followed the line of the
11 cable from ground level to a height of about six-foot
12 and was fixed to the wall with nails. I saw two holes
13 in the casing, both at about eye level
14 (i.e. approximately five feet off the ground)."
15 Although he describes this as being at the
16 "northeast facing gable end wall of block 2", if we
17 look at AG51.9, point G which he has indicated is at
18 the northwest facing gable end of block 2. If we go
19 back to AG51.7, he says:
20 "14. The hole on the north facing side of
21 the casing was in the form of a dent in the steel,
22 whereas the other hole on the south side of the casing
23 was slightly raised. I was able to insert my Biro
24 through the two holes. The line of the Biro joining
25 the two holes was two to three inches off the
1 horizontal, the hole on the north side being slightly
2 higher than the hole on the south side of the casing.
3 I could see that the casing had been freshly drilled or
4 punctured because of the brightness of the galvanised
5 steel. I knew from my experience as a telephone
6 engineer that galvanised steel loses its brightness
7 within a matter of hours, rather than days or weeks, of
8 being exposed to the air. I could also see by looking
9 through the holes that they were directly in line with
10 the army observation post on the top of the Embassy
11 Ballroom. There was an uninterrupted view of the top
12 of the observation post from where I was standing. The
13 thickness of my Biro, which I was able to insert into
14 both holes, was roughly the same as a 7.62 or 303
15 calibre bullet. I am able to say this because of my
16 experience of using firearms and ammunition in the
17 Royal Navy. On the same gable end wall, about two to
18 three feet to the south side of the steel casing, I saw
19 fresh gouges in the concrete. The gouges had the same
20 slight downward inclination as the line of the holes in
21 the casing. The gouges were roughly but not precisely
22 in line with the holes in the casing. I believe that
23 these had been created by gunfire.
24 "15. Just opposite to the entrance to the
25 alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 of the flats there was
1 a feature known locally as the threepenny bits,
2 so-called because of their likeness to the old coin.
3 They were made of concrete and used by the youngsters
4 to play on. I noticed what appeared to be three bullet
5 holes, approximately 18 inches to two feet above ground
6 level, on the side of the threepenny bit nearest the
7 alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 of the flats. I was
8 able to place my thumb into each of the holes. The
9 positions of these holes were also in a direct line
10 with the alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 and the
11 observation post on top of the Embassy Ballroom.
12 "16. I am aware that there has been
13 speculation that the army fired shots on Bloody Sunday
14 from the city walls. Ballistic experts from America
15 were called in to investigate this [I think that is
16 Mr Breglio] but, as far as I am aware, no one
17 considered the possibility that shots had been fired
18 from the observation post on the Embassy Ballroom.
19 I have mentioned this to a number of people over the
20 years but nobody appears to be interested. I had often
21 thought about taking photographs of the holes in the
22 metal casing on the gable end wall, but I never got
23 around to it. The wall, being part of the old
24 Rossville flats, was demolished some time ago. I do
25 remember, however, that when work was undertaken to
1 demolish the threepenny bits, the wall on which I had
2 seen the bullet holes was left standing. I believe the
3 wall is beneath the grassed area surrounding the
4 existing monument, which was erected in memory of those
5 who died during Bloody Sunday. I believe an excavation
6 would show the wall to be still standing, and the
7 existence of the bullet holes which I saw."
8 If we go back to AG51.9, the map, and see
9 what he is saying. His evidence is to the effect that
10 the place where the casing was pierced was in line with
11 the Embassy Ballroom and in line also with the nearest
12 threepenny bit to the southwest of block 2.
13 If we now go to AM238.3, we will find a
14 portion of the evidence of George McGinley, who was in
15 Joseph Place. At paragraph 16, he says:
16 "The sound of live firing outside was still
17 quite intense. Because of this, everyone in the living
18 room was crouched down. Some lay down on the floor,
19 but others, including myself, looked out of the front
20 window into Rossville Street. I crouched at the
21 left-hand corner of the window and so I had quite a
22 good view. I could see the rubble barricade and also
23 the children's playground known as the threepenny bits,
24 where the Bloody Sunday monument now stands. The
25 position of the playground is marked K. That part of
1 the playground nearest to me consisted of a sandpit
2 surrounded by a wall about a foot high.
3 "17. I have a very clear recollection of
4 seeing a volley of bullets hit this wall around the
5 sandpit. I would say that up to 16 bullets hit the
6 side of the sandpit in a series of bursts of two or
7 three round each. I could clearly hear the crack of a
8 rifle, followed by the visible impact of the bullets
9 into the wall of the sandpit, which threw up dust.
10 I saw no one near the sandpit at this time. The
11 curious thing is that, as I watched, I had quite
12 forgotten about the alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 of
13 the Rossville flats and was mystified as to where these
14 shots were coming from."
15 If we go to AM350.5, we will see the evidence
16 of Paul James McLaughlin who says, in paragraph 30:
17 "As we huddled by the telephone box, I could
18 see what I would describe as a small brick plinth
19 directly in front of me and slightly southwest. It was
20 approximately 20 feet away, point J on the attached
21 map. I believe the plinth was made of brick and had a
22 flat face at the side closest to me. It was probably
23 two or three feet high, about four or five rows of
24 bricks. As I looked at the plinth I could see puffs of
25 smoke flying off the face of it. I believe these were
1 caused by bullets hitting it. In my opinion, these
2 bullets must have been fired from the side, either the
3 area of Glenfada Park North or the area of the city
4 walls. I am sure if the bullets had been fired
5 directly at it down Rossville Street then large chunks
6 would have been coming out of the plinth rather than
7 small puffs of smoke."
8 Lastly under this heading, at AR28.6, we will
9 find a portion of the evidence of Michael Joseph
10 Rooney, in which he says:
11 "22. The next day I returned to the scene
12 where Bernard McGuigan had been shot.
13 "23. I also remember we saw three bullet
14 holes in the area of grid reference J17, which I have
15 marked R on the plan. I have also marked this on the
16 photograph at attachment 4. At that time to the south
17 of the Rossville flats there were some structures known
18 as the threepenny bits. One of these was grassed and
19 was surrounded by a low level concrete lintel in
20 a hexagon shape. The bullet holes were on the northern
21 side of the lintel, facing the gap between blocks 1 and
22 2 of the Rossville flats. The bullet holes were at a
23 level of about two inches above the ground."
24 The photograph is at AR28.10. This is not a
25 very good copy because it is a photocopy of a
1 photograph, but it looks to be the northernmost
2 hexagon. That is a body of evidence of bullet holes,
3 or bullets hitting the threepenny bits.
4 If you go to AM108.3, we will find, in
5 paragraph 13 of the evidence of William McClements the
6 following passage:
7 "When I saw Michael Bridge shot I knew that
8 I had to get away because the wall behind which I was
9 hiding would not protect me from the soldiers. I was
10 terrified. I crawled in a southeasterly direction on
11 my hands and knees behind the wall and into the gap
12 between blocks 2 and 3 of the Rossville flats. When
13 I was in between this gap I heard more shooting from
14 behind me, that is from the direction of the car park.
15 I saw at least two bullets strike the wall of the gap,
16 approximately at the point marked G on the attached
17 map. The bullets struck about a foot or so above my
18 head and about four or five feet away from me.
19 I distinctly remember the bullets chipping concrete off
20 the wall and dust flying as they hit. It seemed to me
21 that the shots were aimed and that the soldiers were
22 shooting at people they could see."
23 If we look at AM108.10 we can see where point
24 G is. It appears on the map to be at the stanchion
25 which supports the walkway between block 2 and block 3,
1 though the text describes the bullets as striking "the
2 wall of the gap". Whether he means a concrete
3 stanchion or the wall of block 3 is perhaps debatable.
4 Lastly, if we go to AO11.2, we will find the
5 evidence of John Gerard O'Connor who describes himself
6 as getting to a point on the north side of Joseph Place
7 at approximately the point marked D on his map. That
8 map is at AO11.9. Point D is outside the eighth or
9 ninth house down in Joseph Place on the northwest side
10 of it.
11 Going back to AO11.2, the bottom of the
12 previous page, he says at paragraph 10:
13 "The people around me were throwing
14 themselves down to the ground for cover. I did the
15 same. I cannot remember exactly why I did this;
16 I think it was because everyone else was and I followed
17 what they were doing. I had never been in the
18 situation where I have thrown myself down to the ground
19 before, but I felt threatened there. I went straight
20 down on to my hands and knees. I was 16 years old at
21 the time and had my Sunday best on and would have had
22 to go home to my mother with torn trousers but I did
23 not really care about that because I feared for my
24 life. When I got down to the ground my head was
25 pointing towards block 2 and I could hear the sound of
1 regular shots which were live bullets. I cannot
2 remember the number of shots I heard. The shots did
3 not sound like an exchange of shots or machine-gun.
4 I knew that the shots were not rubber bullets. I knew
5 the difference in the sound of rubber bullets and live
6 bullets ... I definitely remember the shots I heard
7 were distinct and precise. I heard one or two noises
8 which came very close past me. Years later, on
9 holiday, I heard the sound of mosquitoes near my ears.
10 I remember that the sound which came past me when I was
11 down on the ground sounded like mosquitoes. I think
12 that I remember seeing something hitting the ground in
13 front of me which took a small lump out of the ground.
14 There was no bang when this happened. I have no real
15 idea of where the mosquito sounds were coming from but
16 I thought the danger was coming from Rossville Street
17 and William Street towards Free Derry Corner -- but
18 I am not sure why I thought that."
19 LORD GIFFORD: Before my friend leaves,
20 I have been trying to find the telephone casing in
21 between blocks 1 and 2, which were referred to by
22 Mr Green. What puzzles me -- I thought it might be
23 helpful to mention -- is that one sees telephone casing
24 very clearly at a slightly different location on
25 photograph 310. Could we have P310? Sir, one sees it
1 on the wall of the brick hut to the right of the
2 lamppost, which is clearly some metal casing of some
3 telephone wires. But if one looks to the next
4 photograph, 311, and, even more, to the next
5 photograph, 312, one does not see it on the wall which
6 I understood Mr Green to be referring to on the gable
7 end of block 2. Perhaps that is something we can
8 explore in due course, but I noted it because the
9 photographs do show some casing, but not quite in that
10 position.
11 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you.
12 MS SMYTH: In relation to the issue of bullet
13 holes in the threepenny bits, there is also a witness
14 named John Duffy who in fact has made a statement to
15 the Inquiry and a supplementary statement. He in fact
16 has provided two fragmented bullet rounds which he says
17 were in fact shot into the threepenny bits. They are
18 currently being examined by the Inquiry's forensic
19 expert, sir.
20 LORD SAVILLE: How recently have we had that
21 statement, do you know?
22 MS SMYTH: I am not exactly sure. I believe
23 it was in the last two months, sir. I understand the
24 supplementary statement has not yet been signed, but
25 the bullets have been provided.
1 LORD SAVILLE: It may be that if the
2 statement has not been signed we are not using it at
3 the moment. Perhaps Mr Clarke can help on that one?
4 MR CLARKE: It depends on which Duffy. There
5 is a statement from John Duffy at AD160.3, paragraph
6 20:
7 "There was a hexagonal concrete shape to the
8 south of block 2 of the Rossville flats and I saw three
9 bullet holes in it and I was looking around for more."
10 This is I think the day after -- no, perhaps
11 it is not:
12 "I saw three bullet holes in it and I was
13 looking around for more. I saw Mickey Rooney again
14 there and we found an eyelid stuck to the wall at the
15 eastern gable end of block 2."
16 I do not know whether that is the right
17 John Duffy.
18 MS SMYTH: I understand that is the correct
19 John Duffy. He provided the supplemental statement
20 along with the issue of the bullet round, sir, in
21 January, and the bullet round has then been forwarded
22 by Madden & Finucane in March.
23 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure that has got
24 further than our experts at the moment. I have a
25 slight recollection of that statement coming in, but
1 very slight because of course we have had a lot of
2 statements. I do not know at the moment whether we can
3 help you on that.
4 MR CLARKE: I have a slight recollection of
5 it too, but it is sufficiently slight for me. But we
6 will not forget it.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you, Ms Smyth. We will
8 follow that one up anyway and, as necessary, slot it
9 into the correct place. Thank you very much.
10 MS SMYTH: Thank you sir.
11 MR CLARKE: I now deal with some evidence
12 which tends to suggest the existence of other people
13 who were shot other than those whom we know about.
14 I have drawn attention, on occasion, to that evidence
15 as we have gone along. I draw together some of the
16 evidence now, conscious of the fact that this is in no
17 way a full list.
18 Could we have P27? The evidence of Soldier U
19 was that he shot from the north of block 1 and hit a
20 man with a light jacket who had fired two pistol shots
21 from the east pavement of Rossville Street to the south
22 of block 1, and that that man was then carried back to
23 the flats by people who had come out of the flats for
24 that purpose. The identity of that individual is
25 unknown. You can actually see in this photograph,
1 quite well, the threepenny bits, and the fact that it
2 would be possible to hit the threepenny bits from a
3 shot fired from the west of block 1.
4 If we turn to AB26.4, we will find the
5 evidence of Kevin Barrett, who says, bottom half of the
6 page:
7 "27. I walked from point H [point H is
8 outside the first house in Joseph Place] towards Free
9 Derry Corner in a southwesterly direction. I kept
10 close to the line of the houses in Joseph Place just in
11 case shooting started up again from the walls.
12 I reached point I on the map."
13 AB26.7. He starts off at point H and he ends
14 up at point I in Fahan Street. Back to AB26.4,
15 paragraph 27:
16 "I reached point I on the map when I saw two
17 or three men coming from either the direction of the
18 rubble barricade or the Rossville flats. They were
19 carrying a young boy, face down. People were saying
20 that he had been shot. Someone asked them where he was
21 being taken to and they said they were taking him to
22 Letterkenny Hospital. They said this was because the
23 Craigavon Bridge was full of soldiers who were stopping
24 people going across. The boy seemed to be about 14 or
25 15 and of slim build. He was wearing a brown coat,
1 which was about thigh length. He had dark hair and he
2 seemed to be alive when I saw him. I think I remember
3 hearing later that he had died en route to the
4 hospital. I do not know where he had been wounded.
5 I do not think he had been shot in the head as
6 I probably would have seen that.
7 "28. The men who were carrying him were
8 older than me, perhaps in their late 20s, but other
9 than that I cannot recall what they looked like or
10 anything else about them.
11 "29. The car that the boy was put into was
12 an oldish car. It was a 1960s style car, an Austin
13 perhaps, with square doors and a square boot. I cannot
14 recall the colour.
15 "30. I do not remember whether I helped to
16 put the boy into the car or if I was just standing
17 close by. I may have opened the doors to assist the
18 men putting the boy in. He was put across the back
19 seat and there was a driver and front seat passenger.
20 The car drove off, south, towards St. Columb's Wells.
21 I do not know whether the car had just been flagged
22 down and the driver and passenger drove the boy to
23 hospital or whether a car had been brought to the point
24 marked I in order to take the boy to hospital."
25 That is evidence which relates to an, as yet,
1 unidentified boy.
2 AM286.2, we will have a portion of the
3 statement of John McIntyre, where he says at the bottom
4 of the page:
5 "15. I reached the southern end of
6 Chamberlain Street which leads into the Rossville
7 flats' car park. I began to run in a southeast
8 direction towards the alleyway between blocks 2 and 3
9 of the Rossville flats. Most people were running in
10 this direction. I ran straight for this alleyway and
11 did not stop. I have marked the approximate route that
12 I took as a continuous line on the map.
13 "16. As I ran, I recall seeing the body of a
14 young man lying on the ground in the car park at the
15 approximate position marked D on the map. I do not
16 know whether he had been shot, but I am sure he had
17 been given the intensity of the shooting that was going
18 on. I do not know whether he was dead or merely
19 injured. He was sprawled on the tarmac, although
20 I cannot remember in which direction he was lying and
21 whether he was face up or face down. I do not recall
22 what he was wearing, nor can I be more precise about
23 his age. There was no one attending to him although
24 there were people around him."
25 Then he attaches a photograph on which he has
1 marked the approximate position of the body. That
2 photograph is at AM286.6. That is in the car park of
3 the Rossville flats, just below block 1, about halfway
4 down the block. It is conceivable that that is in fact
5 Jack Duddy, but it is not quite in the right position
6 for that purpose. If you go back to AM286.4, paragraph
7 23, he says:
8 "I remember looking out of one of the windows
9 of this house [by now he had got to the house in
10 Joseph Place] and seeing a body lying in
11 Rossville Street at the position marked as E on the
12 attached map. I could not tell how old this person
13 was, what their hair colour was or what they were
14 wearing. I cannot remember the exact position in which
15 this person was lying. I cannot remember whether the
16 person was lying face up or face down. I thought this
17 person had been shot as they were not moving. I am
18 hazy about the exact details of this person as I was a
19 good distance from the person and only had a side-on
20 view. I have marked the approximate position of the
21 person on photographs 21/1 and 21/2, which I attach as
22 appendices 3 and 4."
23 It comes out best at appendix 3, which is at
24 AM286.7, which is somebody in the middle of
25 Rossville Street approximately in line with the middle
1 of the east block of Glenfada Park South. Again, if
2 that was somebody who was wounded I do not know who
3 that is.
4 If we turn to AM304.5 we will find the
5 evidence of Joseph McKinney who, in paragraph 23, says:
6 "As I walked through the gap between blocks 2
7 and 3, I think I saw two bodies lying to the southeast
8 of block 2 at the position marked M on the attached
9 map."
10 If one goes to AM304.8, one can see where "M"
11 on the attached map is. Back to 304.5, paragraph 3,
12 line 3:
13 "The shooting had stopped by this stage. One
14 of the bodies was lying close to the steps which led
15 from Joseph Place to Fahan Street East. He was lying
16 on his side with his head pointing southwest and his
17 feet pointing northeast, although I am not entirely
18 sure of this. I think that he was wearing a jacket and
19 trousers. He was not wearing jeans. I also think he
20 was wearing slip-on shoes. I did not think he was a
21 young man, but I was only 19 at the time so he may not
22 have seemed young to me. I now know that it was Paddy
23 Doherty. I am not sure who the second body was and
24 I cannot visualise him as clearly as I can with Paddy
25 Doherty. I do not know how he was lying or his
1 approximate age. I recall thinking that both men were
2 dead, although I did not see any wounds on either
3 man."
4 He gives evidence which relates to Paddy
5 Doherty, but also another man who may have been dead or
6 wounded, but of that he is not sure.
7 As we have already seen, there are a number
8 of people who give evidence of two people approaching
9 the Joseph Place alleyway and either being or appearing
10 to be shot as they approach that alleyway. If those
11 were people who were in fact shot -- some of the
12 evidence describes one of them as shot in the ankle --
13 we do not know and have not identified who they may
14 be.
15 If we go to AM413.5, we will find the
16 statement of Joseph Moore. He was positioned by the
17 telephone box. In paragraph 24 he says:
18 "I saw a young lad crawling along an alleyway
19 by a garden wall in front of the Joseph Place
20 maisonettes. This lad was probably in his teens or his
21 early twenties. He was crawling along the kerb, doggy
22 fashion, away from us. He was not from one of the
23 group of people who had been huddled by the telephone
24 box with me. As he crawled, he gave out a cry of pain
25 and rolled over on to his side. I do not know what
1 happened to him after that, whether he was wounded or
2 whether he got up, or was taken away. I think by now
3 I had been standing at the telephone box for several
4 minutes, although it is very difficult to have any
5 accurate recollection of the period of time."
6 Sean Eugene O'Neill came across a boy at the
7 south of block 2 who had been hit in the left groin by
8 a rubber bullet. I do not think we need turn that
9 evidence up.
10 Simon Winchester, it will be recalled,
11 referred to seeing seven casualties being put into cars
12 on the Lecky Road and driven off.
13 Lastly, at AB2.5 in the evidence of
14 Eamonn Baker, he says in paragraph 31:
15 "I can clearly remember seeing a young man
16 somewhere near to the north of Free Derry Corner. His
17 trousers were down by his ankles and he was standing in
18 his underpants. I think he had been shot in the
19 backside. I remember feeling his complete humiliation;
20 it seemed to sum up what had been done to us all that
21 day. I was feeling alone and lost, almost like a
22 little child."
23 It may be that was a young man hit by a
24 rubber bullet, but that is Mr Baker's evidence in
25 relation to what he saw there.
1 That brings me to the end of Sector 5. What
2 I now turn to is a different topic. There are a
3 substantial number of witnesses, who either were or
4 came to be to the south of block 2, who speak of
5 shooting from the walls. Some of them heard the sound
6 of shots which they believed came from the walls. Some
7 saw the mark of bullets. Several were told that there
8 was shooting from the walls and that they should watch
9 out as they ran or moved in a number of different
10 places. In particular, warnings to that effect were
11 given to people running from the alleyway between
12 blocks 2 and 3 to the alleyway at the back of
13 Joseph Place; to people running along the alleyway at
14 the back of Joseph Place; to people running from the
15 steps at the end of that alleyway across Fahan Street;
16 and to others as they ran across the Old Bog Road,
17 Fahan Street West, from Lisfannon Park to Abbey Park or
18 vice versa.
19 We have already seen that some of the
20 evidence in relation to the wounding of Daniel
21 McGowan -- including his own evidence -- and the
22 shooting of Patrick Doherty, suggests that those two
23 were shot from the walls, though there is evidence to
24 contrary effect. In relation to the wounding of Daniel
25 McGowan, whose statement to this Tribunal says that he
1 was shot at the bottom of the steps from the walls, it
2 is perhaps interesting to note the evidence of a
3 witness named Kieran O'Doherty which appears at AO15.4,
4 paragraph 22, where the witness says this:
5 "When I reached the bottom of the steps, at
6 the point marked I, I was grabbed by a man and pulled
7 down into cover. The man was in his fifties and small
8 and stocky. He was wearing a cap and a half-length
9 coat. I have no idea who he was. He said that shots
10 were being fired in our direction from the city walls.
11 Other people nearby were also shouting 'Get down'.
12 I therefore lay down flat on my face. It was then that
13 the fear really hit me.
14 "23. I think that the man who grabbed me
15 looked over the top of the wall beside the steps. He
16 said that bits of dust and dirt were being lifted by
17 bullets on the grass verge and that nobody could walk
18 down Fahan Street East. I could still hear live shots
19 being fired, but they did not sound as close or as
20 clear as those I had heard whilst I was running south
21 down Rossville Street."
22 There is, as I say, a considerable body of
23 evidence under this heading. For the purposes of this
24 opening it is, I think, sufficient to refer to some
25 examples of the evidence in two categories: firstly,
1 those who say that they saw or heard the effect of
2 firing from the walls at various spots; and, secondly,
3 those who were warned by others to take care at the
4 various locations.
5 Beginning with those who saw or heard
6 firing -- or say that they saw or heard firing -- from
7 the walls, I begin with those who talk of firing
8 apparently from the walls towards the gable end of
9 Glenfada Park North. If we take the evidence of Jim
10 Doherty at AD73.4, he was standing at one point at the
11 southeast corner of Glenfada Park North, as appears
12 from paragraph 15, where he says:
13 "I went into the courtyard of Glenfada Park
14 North through the northeast entrance at point H. In
15 the courtyard of Glenfada Park North we heard a lot of
16 high velocity gunfire. I could not tell where the
17 shots were coming from. Once the shooting started a
18 lot of people huddled in the Glenfada Park North
19 courtyard to take cover. The shooting seemed to be
20 coming from all around and everyone was very scared.
21 I hid in one of the gardens on the eastern block of
22 Glenfada Park North at point G [that is halfway down
23 the eastern side of Glenfada Park North]. I kept
24 looking out of the opening in the fence to see if
25 I could see anything. I moved out of the garden and
1 kept moving backwards and forwards on the courtyard
2 side of the eastern block of Glenfada Park North.
3 I kept glancing out of the two narrow alleyways leading
4 out from Glenfada Park North onto Rossville Street at
5 points H and I [H is at the north end, I is at the
6 south]. When I looked out of the alleyway at point I,
7 I saw some soldiers on the Derry city walls. I could
8 see the soldiers in the gaps in the Derry walls and
9 they were looking at us through binoculars. I then
10 glanced out at point H and then saw some soldiers
11 running over the wasteground south towards
12 Rossville Street. These soldiers had rifles with
13 them. There were also a couple of Pigs containing
14 soldiers. There may have been as many as five Pigs,
15 but I cannot remember exactly. They pulled up onto the
16 wasteground at Pilot Row and Eden Place. They also
17 pulled up just before the rubble barricade. It was
18 total chaos. I kept moving from point H to point I at
19 the courtyard side of the flats and glancing around to
20 try and see what was going on, whilst at the same time
21 trying to take cover. There seemed to be high velocity
22 fire going on constantly although I cannot remember
23 exactly where it was coming from. I was standing close
24 to point I [to the southeast end] when I saw bullets
25 striking the south gable end of the flats. I could see
1 the brickwork splintering at point J."
2 Perhaps we had better look at the map,
3 AD73.8. H is the northeast entrance, I is the
4 southeast entrance and J is the south gable wall of the
5 east block. Back to 73.5:
6 "I was standing close to point I when I saw
7 bullets striking the south gable end of the flats.
8 I could see the brickwork splintering at point J.
9 I knew that bullets were being fired by the way the
10 brickwork was splintering and hitting the side of the
11 gable wall, and therefore I assumed that the shots must
12 have been coming from the soldiers I had seen
13 positioned on the city walls earlier. However I just
14 heard the shooting and saw the brickwork splintering.
15 My impression was that the shots were being fired
16 downwards from the walls. I did not actually see the
17 soldiers shooting from that position as at the time
18 I was trying to take cover and only glancing around the
19 corner. There was so much noise that I could not say
20 that the shots were definitely coming from the city
21 walls and I did not actually see who was firing the
22 shots. The brickwork was splintering at point J, which
23 was above my head height, and for that reason my
24 assumption was that the shots were coming from the
25 direction of the city walls."
1 Another witness who says he witnessed a shot
2 hit this south gable end is Georgie Leon Downey. His
3 evidence is at AD134.3. At paragraph 14 he says:
4 "I then heard shouts that 'They are coming
5 in' and I ran, with a dozen or so others, south in the
6 direction of Glenfada Park. There was no doubt in my
7 mind that 'they' were the British army and my intention
8 was to head for an area where there were many people.
9 The shouts continued as I ran and I could also hear the
10 sound of heavy engines. I entered Glenfada Park North
11 through its northeastern corner and headed for its
12 southwestern corner. I emerged on Rossville Street and
13 stood out on the roadway slightly south of the rubble
14 barricade and looked towards William Street. My route
15 through Columbcille Court into Glenfada Park North is
16 marked both on GLD2 and on the enlarged map of
17 Glenfada Park and Abbey Park."
18 He describes himself as heading for the
19 southwestern corner, but I do not think he means that.
20 If we look at AD134.11, the position that he describes
21 is of being at the garages in Columbcille Court and
22 taking a route which takes him through
23 Columbcille Court to the northwestern entrance,
24 whereupon he makes for the southeastern corner, as
25 indeed you would have to do if you were to go out
1 towards Rossville Street. If we go back to AD134.3, he
2 says at paragraph 15:
3 "I saw soldiers and armoured vehicles on
4 Rossville Street, north of the rubble barricade. The
5 soldiers seemed to me to be running to get into
6 position. There were 30 or 40 people in
7 Rossville Street south of the rubble barricade. Some
8 were throwing stones towards the soldiers. I then
9 heard gunfire for the second time on Bloody Sunday.
10 Again it was a single shot and it hit the southern
11 gable wall of Glenfada Park North, chipping off a chunk
12 of masonry from it. The bullet hit the wall above head
13 height and I thought that it came from the direction of
14 the city walls. At the sound and ricochet of the
15 single shot I instinctively flinched and crouched,
16 thinking 'What the fuck are they shooting at?'. No
17 sooner had this thought crossed my mind when a whole
18 load more shooting started. This burst of rapid
19 gunfire came from in front of me, north of the rubble
20 barricade, and from the direction of the soldiers I had
21 seen seconds before. The shots were single and had the
22 distinct crack of high velocity army fire. I do not
23 know how many rounds were fired."
24 If we then go to AD156.3, we will find the
25 evidence of Hugh Duffy. At the bottom of the page,
1 paragraph 18, he says this:
2 "The next memory I have is hearing two shots
3 ring out and seeing brick dust fly out of the wall
4 above my head. I was still at point D [which is at the
5 southeast gable wall] and standing very close to the
6 wall at this stage. I think there was other shooting
7 going on at the time, but these two shots were very
8 clear. As the shots rang out, small flakes of red
9 brick dust dropped down from the wall above me. I do
10 not know whether both shots hit the wall, but I looked
11 up at the wall and could see that there was a large
12 chip in the brickwork. The chip was probably 20 or 30
13 feet above me, quite high up, almost level with the
14 second floor balconies. Because of this I do not think
15 that the shots had actually been aimed at me.
16 I thought that the shooting came from the city walls as
17 it could not have come from anywhere else. The mark
18 made by the bullets was just on the eastern side of the
19 corner of the eastern block. I have marked the point
20 where I believe the bullet struck the wall on the
21 photograph which is appendix 2 to this statement."
22 The photograph at appendix 2 is at AD156.6.
23 It is, as described, on the east edge of the wall.
24 That actually seems to be on the east face of Glenfada
25 Park North itself, but if it is intended to depict the
1 piece of brickwork that faces in an easterly direction,
2 the location seems close to the spot identified to
3 Messrs Shepherd and O'Callaghan whose view, as you have
4 seen, is that the mark in question is more probably
5 from firing from the north in Rossville Street, which
6 was the firing that immediately followed the two shots
7 to which Hugh Duffy in his evidence refers.
8 Lastly, if we go to AF22.4 we will find the
9 evidence of Seamus Fleming, who was standing at a point
10 in square I15. If you go to AF22.12, I15 is where the
11 X is just outside number 55 Glenfada Park North.
12 Going back to AF22.4, he says:
13 "As I have said, the first shots I heard
14 appeared to be coming from the wasteground to the north
15 of Rossville flats. While I was still standing at I15,
16 there was a burst of fire which must have come from
17 somewhere other than the wasteground. The shots in
18 question hit the corner of the red brick parapet above
19 where I was standing, showering me and others taking
20 cover with chippings from the wall. Looking back on it
21 now and from what I have heard, that shot or shots that
22 hit the wall could not have come from the soldiers on
23 the wasteground in front of the Rossville flats because
24 of the angle. The gable end wall of Glenfada Park
25 North was hiding the wall where I was standing from
1 soldiers in the wasteground. I think that the shot
2 came from the Joseph Place or city walls direction.
3 (I think it must have come from the point marked X on
4 the city walls ... or in that sort of direction)".
5 AF22.12 will show us the spot marked X on the
6 city walls that I am pointing out now. I am not
7 entirely sure what he is referring to as "the corner of
8 the red brick parapet" above where he was standing, but
9 I assume it to be part of the wall of number 55
10 Glenfada Park North. We can ask in due course.
11 Sir, I am now coming to shots to a different
12 place. I wonder if that might be a convenient moment?
13 LORD SAVILLE: 12.50, please.
14 (12.00 pm)
15 (The luncheon adjournment)
16 (1.53 pm)
17 MR CLARKE: Could we have on the screen
18 temporary statement bundle 80.1? This is a statement
19 that was not to hand before lunch, but falls in the
20 category of statements that deal with bullet holes. It
21 is the statement of Phillip Gerard McGuinness. If we
22 go to page 2 of the statement, at paragraph 14, he says
23 that:
24 "From the position where I was lying [which
25 is at point D, we will look at in a moment] I could see
1 bullets hitting one of the threepenny bits which were
2 to the north of the Joseph Place flats. I remember
3 that there was a flowerbed on what is now the base of
4 the monument. The shots were hitting the edge of the
5 plinth of the flowerbed and chipping away at it.
6 I could see dust falling away."
7 He also says at paragraph 16 on the next
8 page:
9 "I must have felt at some stage that I had to
10 get out of there. I ran across the front of the
11 Joseph Place flats towards Free Derry Corner. At that
12 time there were odd shots going off, although I do not
13 know which direction they were being fired from.
14 I just wanted to get out of there. I aimed for some
15 houses near to Free Derry Corner/St Columb's Wells. As
16 I was at about the point marked F on the attached map,
17 the shooting started again. I immediately hit the
18 deck. I could see the bullets hitting approximately
19 halfway up the gable wall of a nearby house. Two
20 bullets hit the house for definite. The house was just
21 at the corner of Fahan Street and St Columb's Wells at
22 the point marked G. I saw the dust come off the house
23 where the bullets hit the wall. I would say that the
24 shots came from the direction of Rossville Street."
25 If we go to the next page, page 3, the map
1 I was looking for, we will see that when he saw the
2 bullets hitting the threepenny bits, he was at the
3 point marked D. He was at F, which is to the southwest
4 of Joseph Place, where he says that at least two
5 bullets hit the house marked G, which looks to be the
6 house at the corner of Fahan Street and St Columb's
7 Wells.
8 Coming back to the evidence of those who saw
9 or heard firing from the walls, I now come to that
10 person who attributes a strike against the southeast
11 gable wall of block 2 to firing from the walls. If we
12 go to AG44.4, we will find the evidence of John Glenn
13 name at paragraph 27 at the bottom, he says this:
14 "As I was trying to get through the gap
15 between blocks 2 and 3 of the flats, I heard one, or
16 possibly two, strange thudding sounds. I looked up and
17 saw splinters of concrete bouncing off the middle of
18 the southeast gable end wall of block 2 of the
19 Rossville flats, about 15 feet from the ground. The
20 thudding sounds of the concrete being hit could only
21 have been live bullets. It was a surreal experience.
22 "28. At the time, I could not figure out who
23 had fired these shots. I had only seen the one soldier
24 shooting in the wasteground and I could not understand
25 how he could have hit the southeast gable wall from his
1 position. When I found out later that there were
2 people firing from the city walls, it dawned on me that
3 the shots I saw hit the southeast gable wall must have
4 come from there."
5 As we have already seen, some of those who
6 saw bullets strike the threepenny bits believed that
7 the shots came from the walls, such as Hugh Breslin,
8 whose evidence we have looked at earlier, and Paul
9 McLaughlin.
10 Again, some witnesses refer to firing from
11 the walls at the ground between block 1 and the
12 Joseph Place buildings. Into this category there falls
13 Patrick Joseph Rowe, whose evidence is at AR30.2, where
14 he says this at paragraph 7:
15 "I saw a couple of fellas run into the
16 entrance of block 1 ... I recall in particular noticing
17 two tall soldiers firing their rifles from their chests
18 into the doorway of block 1. They were actually
19 shooting when I saw them. I remember someone saying
20 'Those fucking paras are shooting in there'. They
21 seemed to be separated from the main group and stick in
22 my mind. I think they were wearing tin riot hats.
23 I cannot now recall whether they were black or white.
24 "8. At first there were just a couple of
25 cracks of gunfire, then it kicked off. The shots
1 seemed to be fired from the direction of the Saracens
2 at the northwest corner of the car park. I panicked
3 and instead of running to the gap between block 1 and
4 block 2 of the Rossville flats, I dived behind a low
5 wall at the southwest side of the car park which ran
6 parallel with block 2 and took shelter approximately at
7 the point marked D on the attached map [which is behind
8 the wall that runs parallel to block 2]. There were
9 other people sheltering behind the low wall, my brother
10 was there and I checked whether he was all right and he
11 said that he was. I crawled northwest behind the wall
12 towards the gap between block 1 and block 2. As I was
13 crawling, there was a lot of high velocity fire. I had
14 never been so scared in my life. Somebody said that
15 the shooting was coming from the city walls. I heard
16 no shots fired from the Rossville flats.
17 "9. I probably got up and ran through the
18 gap between block 1 and block 2. I could have gone
19 through the gap between block 2 and block 3 but I think
20 it is more likely that it was the gap between block 1
21 and block 2. My route is marked by arrows on the
22 attached map. When I reached the southwest side of
23 block 2 I got down on my stomach and crawled
24 southeast. There was sustained live fire. I remember
25 lying on my stomach and praying. I was holding
1 a rosary. I could hear shooting from the city walls
2 from this position. I do not recall having seen anyone
3 shot or injured whilst I was in this area.
4 "10. I then crawled to the alleyway behind
5 Joseph Place."
6 Then he describes what has happened there.
7 All that witness in fact describes is being to the
8 south of block 2 and hearing shooting from the city
9 walls. His route appears at AR30.4. We will look at
10 it before we leave his evidence, it is the route from
11 point D behind the low wall parallel to block 2, round
12 through block 1 and 2 and along the south of block 2
13 towards the alleyway behind Joseph Place.
14 Another witness in this broad category,
15 James Greene, at AD54.3, had been with Hugh Gilmore.
16 He ran from the south of block 1 to the second house in
17 Joseph Place. At the bottom of the page, paragraph 14,
18 he was with Hugh Gilmore, he said at paragraph 14:
19 "As we were tending to him, we heard more
20 shots which seemed to be coming from the northern end
21 of Rossville Street (i.e. the William Street end)
22 toward the rubble barricade. A woman shouted to us
23 from one of the houses in Joseph Place, the block
24 nearest to block 2 of the Rossville flats. She
25 shouted, I think through the window, that if we ran
1 over there we could shelter in her house. Some of us
2 ran across the wasteground from point A [which is
3 immediately be blow block 1] to her house [which is the
4 second house in Joseph Place and which I have marked
5 B]. As we ran a number of shots hit the ground all
6 around us. I do not know where the shots came from, or
7 whether they were aimed at us, although I thought later
8 that they must have been. There would have been three
9 or four shots which landed around us and they all hit
10 the ground at a steep angle heading downwards. The
11 approximate places where the bullets hit the ground are
12 marked with crosses on the map. It was a 30 to 40 yard
13 dash to the woman's house and I ran with a couple of
14 other people, although I did not know who they were.
15 "15. I do not know the name of the woman
16 whose house I went into. Everyone in Joseph Place
17 seemed to be opening their doors to allow people to
18 take cover. When I got into the house I found that it
19 was jam-packed with people standing shoulder to
20 shoulder. When I was in there I heard a further volley
21 of shots and people dropped to the floor lying on top
22 of each other. I had no idea where those shots came
23 from. I was in the house for 10 or 15 minutes waiting
24 for someone to take a lead and go out of the house
25 first. By that stage, people in the house were close
1 to hysterics, and when people left they went out
2 cautiously in small groups."
3 Another witness, Pearse McCaul, AM93.3, was
4 one of those who had carried Michael Kelly's body
5 across Glenfada Park North from the gable end of the
6 east block to the other side of the park. Later he saw
7 the body of Bernard McGuigan at the south of block 2
8 and he started to run from the Rossville flats to Free
9 Derry Corner. At AM93.4, paragraph 20, he said this:
10 "I decided to go home. Before I did so,
11 I looked up and saw soldiers standing on the city
12 walls, but they were not doing anything in particular.
13 There were also a lot of people generally milling
14 around. I started to run from the Rossville flats
15 towards Free Derry Corner. Someone must have thought
16 that I had fired a shot because I heard a shot ring out
17 at me. I do not know where the shot was fired from or
18 from what type of gun it was fired. I just kept
19 running towards Free Derry Corner.
20 "21. As I returned to the Creggan, I saw
21 groups of people gathered along the route. People were
22 cursing the IRA because they had not been there to
23 defend the people. No one had retaliated against the
24 soldiers. I did not realise that so many people had
25 been wounded until I saw the newspapers reports later.
1 "22. I feel that this Inquiry is the first
2 chance for justice. I refused to prepare a statement
3 for the Widgery Inquiry because it had been arranged in
4 too much of a panic. But I believe this Inquiry will
5 be more thorough."
6 If we may then turn to AM305.2, we will find
7 the statement of Louis McKinney. At paragraph 9 he
8 says this:
9 "I walked across through Columbcille Court,
10 past Glenfada Park North and along the
11 Glenfada Park/Abbey Park alleyway. My route is
12 indicated by the longer arrows marked on the attached
13 map. Shots were coming up and across Rossville
14 Street. It is strange what I remember about that time
15 as I look back. Now it seems as if I can see that day
16 in slow motion. I have always liked good clothes.
17 I recall that as I was walking along with the shooting
18 going on, I was thinking to myself 'I am not going to
19 go into that garden because I will get all mucky'.
20 I found the wall marked at point 3 on the map and lay
21 down behind it and remember thinking that I was so
22 brainy because the shots were not coming near me. It
23 almost seems humorous to me that I can remember that
24 now."
25 AM305.8 shows his route. Point 3 is at the
1 mouth of the alleyway between Abbey Park and
2 Glenfada Park South as it leads on to the Old Bog Road,
3 Fahan Street West. If we go back to where we were
4 before, 305.2, paragraph 10, he said this:
5 "Whilst I was there, bullets were coming
6 across Fahan Street West. I could see the bullets
7 hitting the road. They appeared to be fired from my
8 left, from the Joseph Place/city walls direction. It
9 was never a revelation to me when people started saying
10 that they were firing from the walls because I had seen
11 the bullets coming from there that day. The bullets
12 were making a noise like that in a cowboy picture
13 'twing, twing'.
14 "11. Whilst I was by the wall Stephen
15 McGonagle came to sit with me. He was head of the
16 Transport and General Workers Union.
17 "12. After a while I got up and walked in
18 a northwesterly direction along Fahan Street West and
19 stopped at the point marked 4 on the map. A man I knew
20 from school called 'Shava' Gillespie walked over to
21 me. He was about two or three years older than me and
22 at school he had been considered a hard guy. He had
23 a white mark on his forehead as if someone had put
24 a finger in some flour and wiped it across his head.
25 It was not a cut, more of a graze. He said to me
1 something like 'Look at me McKinney, a bullet's hit my
2 fucking head. ' I thought to myself 'Don't talk crap to
3 me'. He told me not to go over to the Rossville flats
4 because the army were shooting people over there.
5 "13. At the same time as I was standing
6 there with 'Shava' Gillespie, I noticed that I was near
7 to Vinny Coyle's house and I noticed Vinny, who was
8 from the area. I remember that he wore his big hat.
9 I noticed a girl running west along Fahan Street West
10 towards me. I only knew her name to be McNulty, though
11 I am not positive. There were lots of people standing
12 around at that time, but I knew somehow that she was
13 only coming towards me. There was a silence in the air
14 at that time that I have never witnessed in my life,
15 except near death. She continued coming towards me and
16 I paused. It was almost as if I knew that she was
17 coming to give me bad news. I kept thinking 'If it is
18 bad news, please do not let it be Frances'. She came
19 over to me and I moved slightly away to avoid her. She
20 said to me 'You, I want you, your brother is lying at
21 the flats'.
22 "14. I made my way with the McNulty girl
23 back east along Fahan Street West, through the
24 Glenfada Park/Abbey Park alleyway and towards the steps
25 between the northeastern end of Abbey Park on the map
1 and the southwestern corner of Glenfada Park North.
2 "15. I came to my brother Gerry, lying on
3 a step on the street. One of his shoes was off.
4 Someone was pumping his heart and giving him the kiss
5 of life. Somebody had said that he had had a heart
6 attack. I thought that they were talking crap. Gerry
7 and I owned a roller skating rink and he was very fit.
8 I have a feeling that an uncle of mine was near me and
9 I remember Father Mulvey was giving Gerry the last
10 rites."
11 Then there is evidence from those who speak
12 of shots from the walls as they went along the alley at
13 the back of Joseph Place. One of those is Noel
14 Campbell, whose evidence appears at AC16.3, paragraph
15 16:
16 "After passing through the alleyway between
17 blocks 2 and 3, I headed for St Columb's Wells which
18 I considered to be a safe place. I think I must have
19 gone down the alleyway behind Joseph Place, since I do
20 not remember going up any flights of steps,
21 specifically those linking Joseph Place with
22 Fahan Street East. The route I took is marked on the
23 map.
24 "17. I was running flat out, and crouching
25 down as I was fearful of firing from the walls.
1 A number of other people were running in the same
2 direction. I think I heard at least a dozen shots
3 fired as I moved down the alleyway towards St Columb's
4 Wells. These were not single shots, but rapid volleys
5 interspersed with lulls. I am certain that these shots
6 were fired from the city walls from a westerly
7 direction, although --
8 LORD SAVILLE: I think it must mean in an
9 easterly --
10 MR CLARKE: It looks as if there is a rogue
11 statement compiler who does not know west from east:
12 "I am certain that these shots were fired
13 from the city walls from a westerly direction [as you
14 say, it must be east] although I did not look up at the
15 walls and so cannot be sure.
16 "18. I am certain that I did not lie down
17 under fire in the vicinity of St Columb's Wells or Free
18 Derry Corner. I am certain that this incident took
19 place in the car park of the flats."
20 At AC16.5, we can see the map which shows his
21 route. It is down Chamberlain Street, across the wall
22 parallel with block 2, through the block 2 to 3 alley
23 and along the back of Joseph Place, a route taken by
24 many others on that day.
25 If we now turn to AC24.8, you will find
1 a passage in the evidence of Sean Canney, who had been
2 one of those at the gable end of block 1. After the
3 deaths of Bernard McGuigan and Patrick Doherty, he made
4 his way to Joseph Place. That appears in paragraph 48,
5 where he says:
6 "I thought that I would be able to escape to
7 safety by going behind Joseph Place, across Fahan
8 Street and along Lecky Road. I made my way towards
9 Joseph Place and started to walk along a walkway to the
10 rear. This took me in a southwesterly direction along
11 the walkway, which was to the south of Joseph Place.
12 The walkway had a wall on each side of it. The walls
13 were about four feet high, so my head and shoulders
14 were protruding above the wall. To my left was
15 a grassy bank which rose up to Fahan Street East and
16 continued to rise on the other side of Fahan Street
17 East up to the city walls. Immediately to my left, the
18 grassy bank was flat.
19 "49. I was walking along the walkway with
20 a few other people. I reached a position near the
21 point marked M on the map and was facing southeast
22 towards the city walls. There, a piece of turf about
23 18 inches in front of me disintegrated and bits of dirt
24 flew in the air. A fraction of a second later I heard
25 the first of about six to eight single rifle shots.
1 Some of these hit the walls at the rear of Joseph
2 Place, behind me. I have no doubt that the shots were
3 fired in a northwesterly direction, from the city walls
4 because I heard them hit the wall behind me."
5 If we look for the moment at his map at
6 AC24.12, we will find where he was, namely, at the
7 point marked M in line with about the fifth or sixth
8 house down. If we go back to where we were before:
9 "50. We all took cover behind the small wall
10 by crouching down. At first, some people tried to
11 continue to make their way down the walkway (in
12 a southwesterly direction). I realised that I would be
13 exposed to fire from the city walls when I reached the
14 end of the walkway, so I turned back.
15 "51. I went into one of the flats at the
16 northeast end of Joseph Place. I think that it was the
17 second flat from the northeast end of the block, but
18 I am not certain. There were six or seven people in
19 the flat. One of the people was Alana Burke. I knew
20 who she was because she used to live in the next street
21 to where I lived. She appeared to have a serious back
22 injury. Someone told me that she had been knocked over
23 by one of the APCs. I did not see that. Another man
24 and I rendered some very basic first aid. We advised
25 people to keep her still until the ambulance arrived.
1 She was not bleeding. She was conscious, but
2 hysterical at times.
3 "52. After tending to Alana Burke,
4 I attempted to take some photographs through the letter
5 box of the front door of the flat. The lady who lived
6 in the flat went spare. She was afraid that my actions
7 would draw fire from the army. I may have taken one
8 photograph, but I am not sure. One or two minutes
9 later, I left the flat. Altogether, I was there for
10 about five minutes, I think. By that time, the
11 shooting had stopped, which was why I felt safe to
12 leave."
13 If we then go to AC35.3, we will find the
14 evidence of John Joseph 'Joe' Carlin, who ran to the
15 alleyway between blocks 2 and 3. Paragraph 14, he says
16 this:
17 "The alleyway went through to the ground
18 behind Joseph Place. This is shown on the copy
19 photograph attached as attachment 2. At the start of
20 the alleyway I got down on my hunkers and started
21 moving along away from the Rossville flats. I was at
22 about the point marked X on attachment 2 when I heard
23 a shot which hit the wall about six or twelve inches
24 above my head. It did not hit the top of the wall.
25 I think the wall was plastered or pebble dashed -- not
1 just brick. Bits of plaster work fell on top of me and
2 in front of me. I remember hearing people shout 'Get
3 down, they're shooting from the walls'. I was
4 crouching down with my back to the wall of the alleyway
5 facing out to Rossville Street and I am not sure where
6 the shot which hit the wall above my head came from."
7 If we go to AC35.5, we can see where he is
8 referring to, I think. The "X" to which he appears to
9 be referring is where I am now pointing, in just close
10 to the Fahan Street steps in the northeast corner of
11 the lower car park behind Joseph Place. If we go back
12 to where we were before, at paragraph 15, he says:
13 "After the shot I got down on my hands and
14 knees and crawled through the gap between the two
15 blocks of maisonettes at Joseph Place. I was with
16 about four or five others, but apart from
17 Stevie McCrudden I cannot remember who the others
18 were. When I came out of the gap I could see the
19 crowds to my left at Free Derry Corner. I do not
20 remember them lying on the ground. I could hear people
21 screaming and shouting and cursing the soldiers.
22 I think someone on the platform was telling people to
23 be calm. I moved towards the crowd at Free Derry
24 Corner but kept close to the front of the houses in the
25 southern block of Joseph Place. I remember climbing
1 over fences. I then veered off towards Free Derry
2 Corner. I would estimate I arrived at Free Derry
3 Corner about five or six minutes after I had clambered
4 over the wall at the back of block 2 of the Rossville
5 flats. I could hear gunfire at this time but I was
6 just trying to get away. I felt reasonably safe at
7 Free Derry Corner because the sound of gunfire was in
8 the distance. I think it was coming from the north of
9 me, from the area of the Rossville flats. However,
10 I do not know exactly where it was coming from. The
11 gunfire was sporadic in that there would be a few shots
12 followed by a lull for a few seconds and then other
13 shots. When I first came out of the gap between the
14 blocks at Joseph Place I did not know whether to go out
15 towards Free Derry Corner or not.
16 "16. I stayed at Free Derry Corner for about
17 a minute or so ... I then headed up New Road and made
18 my way home. I think the gunfire had stopped by now."
19 Other witnesses give evidence of being shot
20 at from the city walls whilst in the vicinity of
21 Joseph Place. One of those is Michael Creagan at
22 AC119, where at AC119.5, he was one of those, see
23 paragraph 29, who crawled out of the exit from the
24 Rossville flats car park in between block 2 and block
25 3. At paragraph 32, he says this:
1 "I decided to make my way towards Free Derry
2 Corner and St Columb's Wells as I thought that I could
3 either shelter in one of the houses there or even
4 escape into the Bogside. I made my way past
5 Joseph Place on the eastern side and I have marked my
6 route on the map. I am sure that shooting came from
7 the city walls as I was shot at as I ran past
8 Joseph Place. I could not get into the first house at
9 St Columb's Wells as there were about 50 or 100 people
10 sheltering there. This house is marked as point K."
11 If you go to the map at AC119.7, we can see
12 that this is not somebody who went through the alleyway
13 behind Joseph Place, but went through the car park
14 behind Joseph Place, what I am calling the lower car
15 park, the one immediately behind Joseph Place, off to
16 Fahan Street.
17 If we could then have AD147.4, we will find
18 a portion of the evidence of James, known as
19 Jimmy Duddy who, at paragraph 21, reveals that he too
20 came out from the alleyway between blocks 2 and 3. At
21 paragraph 23:
22 "I ran back to shelter in the alleyway
23 running along the east side of Joseph Place. It was
24 about four or five feet wide and there were perhaps 12
25 of us hiding there. We were down on our hunkers.
1 I was surprised that people were sheltering there as
2 they were out of the line of fire from Rossville
3 Street, but then I could actually hear bullets hitting
4 the walls and the thud of clay flying up off the ground
5 just two or three feet away as I hid there. I did not
6 know where the shooting was coming from at the time,
7 but I now think it must have been coming from the
8 direction of the city walls."
9 If we go to AK1.10, we will find the evidence
10 of Hugh Kearney. At paragraph 24 it reveals that he
11 made his way "between block 1 and block 2". He then
12 made his way past the shops on the south side of block
13 2. Then paragraph 26:
14 "After only pausing at position L for a split
15 second, I decided to make my way to Joseph's Place and
16 I made my way to about position M."
17 That is also in the car park:
18 "I distinctly remember hearing the 'pinging'
19 sound of bullets hitting the high wall above my head...
20 I decided not to move as I was terrified. A woman in
21 one of the houses in Joseph Place was shouting to me to
22 come in, but I was afraid to move."
23 LORD SAVILLE: If I have that right, "the
24 'pinging' sound of bullets hitting the high wall above
25 my head" would be coming from the west.
1 MR CLARKE: Yes, I think that is right. If
2 we go to AK1.4, I think that must be so because the
3 position where he is at is at point M. In fact in
4 a position rather similar to where the previous witness
5 was.
6 It might be sensible to remind ourselves of
7 the lie of the land. If we look at EP1.5, we can see
8 the general area that we are looking at. The alleyway
9 we can see is behind Joseph Place. But there is what
10 I have been calling the lower and the upper car park,
11 divided by railings, the upper being higher than the
12 lower. What this witness and his predecessor appear to
13 be saying is actually that they were in the lower car
14 park somewhere towards the northeast end. If you look
15 at the preceding photograph, EP1.4, you can see the
16 difference in level because you can see how the upper
17 car park begins to rise as you go north, broadly
18 parallel with Fahan Street East. So in a sense the
19 map, which does not distinguish contours, is or may be
20 slightly confusing.
21 You will recall that some of the witnesses
22 refer to tufts of earth or grass being thrown up around
23 them. There is, I think, some grass towards the south
24 of Joseph Place and there is undoubtedly a grass bank
25 to the east of Fahan Street East. If we go back to
1 photograph 5, I do not believe there is any grass at
2 the north end of the alleyway, at least I cannot see
3 any on that photograph.
4 If we go to AD5.4, we will find the evidence
5 of Thomas Ralph Dawes. What he says is this, paragraph
6 23:
7 "I walked in a southwesterly direction along
8 the alleyway at the back of Joseph Place. The
9 maisonettes which make up Joseph Place were on my
10 right, and the wall was on my left. There is a gap
11 between the north block of Joseph Place and the south
12 block and a large number of people seemed to be
13 congregated there. I had a quick discussion with the
14 people around me as to what we were going to do next.
15 I then continued walking along the same alleyway in
16 a southerly direction. When I reached the point marked
17 K on the attached plan, there was a gap in the wall to
18 my left -- there was a set of steps leading to the car
19 park to the east. Where I was standing on the north
20 side of the gap, the wall was probably about head
21 height; beyond it, to the south of the gap, the wall
22 was no higher than waist height."
23 If we look at AD5.10, the attached plan, on
24 which for some reason all the letters have been put
25 lying on their side. The attached plan shows what he
1 is meaning by point K, which is the steps that lead up
2 at the end of the alleyway. If you look at AD5.8, you
3 can see them represented rather better in a photograph,
4 or shown them in a photograph, which is EP1.3. Could
5 we have EP1.3 on the screen? The alleyway, when it
6 comes to an end, approaches a series of steps that lead
7 up to a barricade made of old motorcars before getting
8 to Fahan Street West.
9 If we go back to AD5.4, he says at paragraph
10 24:
11 "It was just as I was approaching this gap
12 from the north that the firing began again, but this
13 time from a new direction. The firing came from my
14 left that is from the direction of the city walls.
15 There were a large number of people in the alleyway at
16 this stage, including many women. I remember as
17 I looked south down the alleyway seeing clods of earth
18 and grass being churned up by the shots hitting the
19 ground and earth was falling on to the people on the
20 south side of the gap. I think that there were two
21 shots, after which the people on the south side of the
22 gap lay down. There was then a further two shots.
23 "25. I was still to the north of the gap in
24 the wall, and I remember having to force some of the
25 women who were with me across the gap to the other
1 side."
2 What he is describing in this paragraph is
3 there being a gap in the wall to his left and him
4 standing to the north side of that gap. What I suspect
5 he is referring to, is this: if you look at EP1.3, you
6 will see the steps as they lead up to the barricade at
7 the bottom of Fahan Street East. If you look at EP1.4,
8 just before you get to the steps, there is, as it were,
9 a gap in the wall, because there are steps that lead up
10 off the alleyway into the car park. I rather suspect
11 that is the feature to which he is referring.
12 If we may now have AL15.2, this is a portion
13 of the evidence of William Lindsay. At paragraph 12,
14 at the bottom of the page, he says this -- I am not
15 quite sure what it was, I will come back to that in
16 a moment:
17 "My attention was then drawn by a group of
18 men who were lying by the side of a wall just south of
19 the southern block of Joseph Place. They were lying at
20 a point marked N on the map. The wall in question was
21 the retaining wall for the steps that led from
22 Joseph Place to Fahan Street. The wall ran from the
23 flats of Joseph Place in a southwesterly direction
24 towards Fahan Street. The position of the wall and the
25 steps are indicated on the plan at grid reference H
1 21."
2 If we go to AL15.8, we will see where he is
3 talking about, namely, what he has described as point
4 "N", with what he describes as a "retaining wall". He
5 has made a line, which suggests there is a retaining
6 wall coming out from almost the middle of the south
7 gable end of the south block of Joseph Place. If you
8 look at EP1.3, there is, I suppose what could be
9 described as a retaining wall to the west side of the
10 steps, but there is not a wall that somehow comes out
11 of the side of Joseph Place. No matter, if we go back
12 to where we were before, we know in what area he is
13 talking about. AL15.3:
14 "There were about half a dozen men in all,
15 possibly in their 50s. They were lying on my side of
16 the wall and shouting 'Get down, get down, they will
17 fucking kill you. Get out of the fucking road.'
18 I looked up behind them (to the east) to the city walls
19 and could see several flashes as shots were fired from
20 the city walls. I recall that there were about seven
21 or eight flashes which appeared to be coming from the
22 area on the city walls marked O. I was aware of
23 bullets bouncing all around me. At the time, I was the
24 only person standing up -- there was an empty space
25 around me -- everyone else was taking cover.
1 I realised that the shots were aimed at me and so I ran
2 towards the wall and dived for cover to join the men
3 already lying there. Once I got to the safety of the
4 wall, I cannot remember hearing any more shooting.
5 "14. I waited two or three minutes before
6 deciding it was safe to come out again. I left the
7 safety of the wall with the other men and we ran south
8 across Fahan Street to St Columb's Wells ..."
9 The spot marked "O" is at AL15.8. It is
10 between the army observation post and the platform.
11 Another witness got to the car park behind
12 Joseph Place. He is Gerard McDaid, whose evidence is
13 at AM164.5. He says at paragraph 28:
14 "We stayed at the car park at point F for
15 perhaps a couple of minutes. During this time we could
16 still hear some army shooting, but we were under cover
17 and we felt safe. However, after a couple of minutes
18 we then heard shooting coming from much closer to us.
19 The shooting was coming from the city walls directly to
20 the south of us, from the general area that has been
21 marked with a bold line on the attached map."
22 The attached map is at AM164.13. He was at
23 point F. The line in question goes from the Royal
24 Bastion to the centre of the First Presbyterian
25 church. If we go back to AM164.5, he says, in
1 paragraph 28, five lines down:
2 "I am absolutely certain that the shooting
3 was coming from the city walls. We were exposed in the
4 car park, but immediately to the north of us was the
5 walled alleyway that ran directly behind and to the
6 south of the Joseph Place flats. This alleyway was six
7 or seven feet deep and we all vaulted into the alleyway
8 to take cover.
9 "29. The shooting from the city walls
10 carried on for five minutes or so, and we did not
11 move. There was not as much shooting coming from the
12 city walls as we had heard coming from the
13 Rossville Street area. The shooting from the city
14 walls was in single shots and there were no bursts of
15 gunfire. The shooting from the walls only lasted for
16 about five minutes or so, but the gunfire that we could
17 hear coming from the general area of Rossville Street
18 and Glenfada Park carried on.
19 "30. After 25 minutes or so, the shooting
20 had stopped completely and we thought it was safe to
21 move. We moved along the alleyway towards the south
22 end of Joseph Place. The end of the alleyway is marked
23 with a J.
24 "31. When we got there, it was our intention
25 to run into St Columb's Wells, but this would have
1 involved running over a lot of open ground. If there
2 were soldiers on the city walls looking for people to
3 shoot at, we would be exposed. There was a barricade
4 across Fahan Street East made from an old van. The
5 position where the barricade was is marked with a line
6 on the map. We could take cover around this barricade
7 and we ran to it in groups of two from where we were at
8 the end of the alleyway. When two of us had reached
9 the barricade across Fahan Street East, we would then
10 run across into St Columb's Wells and another two would
11 run to the barricade from the alleyway at the same
12 time. In this manner if anyone was shooting at us we
13 would be half as likely to be shot. We still firmly
14 believed that there was shooting from the walls and
15 I even recall seeing what I believed to be two bullets
16 hit a piece of grassed ground just at the end of the
17 alleyway. Those bullets are probably still there
18 buried in the ground somewhere."
19 Similar evidence is given by George McGinley
20 at AM238.5. He came out of the back of a house in
21 Joseph Place with a man called Phil Meenan. He says at
22 paragraph 28:
23 "I was scared that the army would charge
24 south beyond the rubble barricade, and even come inside
25 the houses in Joseph Place. Phil Meenan and I panicked
1 and hurried out of the back of the house into the
2 alleyway which ran behind it ...
3 "29. Once we were in the alleyway we
4 crouched down on our knees behind a wall about four
5 feet high. We moved southwest down the alleyway in
6 a crouched position for about four or five metres.
7 I then became aware of rifle bullets whizzing above my
8 head and stopped running at about point P on the map
9 attached."
10 That is about, on the map, five houses down
11 from the top of Joseph Place:
12 "30. I would say that about 10 shots passed
13 over me. The firing seemed to come from the city walls
14 from east to west and was definitely rifle fire.
15 I assumed that soldiers were firing SLRs. The firing
16 was not so intense as that I had heard in Rossville
17 Street. It seemed more deliberate and came mostly as
18 single shots. The odd thing was that I could not hear
19 the crack of the shots being fired, just the 'whoosh'
20 as they passed over me. For some reason I had the idea
21 that the shots were aimed towards St Eugene's Cathedral
22 on Francis Street.
23 "31. Because of the firing from the walls,
24 it took Phil Meenan and me about five minutes to move
25 down the alley from point P to point Q. So far as
1 I recall, we were alone in the alleyway. I think our
2 nerves were too shattered to think about returning to
3 the house in Joseph Place. We paused at several points
4 and looked up towards the city walls once or twice.
5 I saw a few figures, who I took to be soldiers,
6 standing in the ramparts at about point R, although
7 I could not see what uniforms they were wearing and
8 I did not actually see them firing any weapons.
9 "32. When we reached the end of the alley at
10 point Q, we stopped and waited for a lull in the
11 firing. I remember looking up at the walls again and
12 my attention being caught by a group of two or three
13 people standing near the Butcher's Gate at point S.
14 One of them was wearing a red and white bobble hat, and
15 I remember thinking it odd that a Derry City supporter
16 should be standing up on the walls at that place in
17 time. My impression was that there were two or three
18 civilians standing at point S, but I had only
19 a fleeting glimpse. So far as I know the city walls
20 were closed to civilians until about two years ago, and
21 barricaded off.
22 "33. When a lull came, Phil Meenan and
23 I took a hard decision and ran west from point Q to
24 Free Derry Corner, then south into Lecky Road.
25 I believe that as I ran I could still hear shooting in
1 the distance, although I cannot say from where or in
2 what direction. There was a crowd of about 40 or 50
3 people standing at Free Derry Corner, but I cannot
4 recall what they were doing. I was busy dodging and
5 ducking and focused on getting home as quickly as
6 possible.
7 "34. Later that day I learned that my
8 brother Paddy McGinley had been arrested near barrier
9 14. That night, I returned to the Bogside with some
10 friends to take a closer look at the spot where I had
11 seen the bullets strike the sandpit at point K.
12 I formed the conclusion that these shots had come from
13 north to south through the alleyway between blocks 1
14 and 2 of the Rossville flats. My intention that night
15 was to examine the bullet holes and show others what
16 I had witnessed there earlier in the day ..."
17 I think he must be another person who had
18 seen bullets strike the sandpit.
19 If we go to AO31.4, we will find the evidence
20 of Hugh O'Donnell, who ran through the alleyway between
21 blocks 1 and 2 towards Joseph Place on its west side.
22 At paragraph 20 he says:
23 "As I reached the alleyway I heard two
24 high-pitched shots [this is the alleyway between blocks
25 1 and 2] ring out from behind me and above my head in
1 the position marked 16. Sparks flew off a drainpipe
2 just above my head. I cannot now recall whether the
3 drainpipe was square or round."
4 Point 16 can be found on AO31.9 and it is at
5 the northwest corner of block 2, but it appears to be
6 on that portion of block 2 that faces southwest: if we
7 go back to AO31.4, he says at paragraph 21:
8 "I was absolutely petrified, not only for
9 myself, but also for my sons who I had still not
10 found. I stood at the southern gable end wall of
11 block 1 of the Rossville flats along with many others
12 who were taking shelter in that area. I moved to the
13 point marked 17 and looked north up Rossville Street.
14 [the point marked 17 is a bit to the southwest of
15 block 1 on the east pavement of Rossville Street].
16 I was shocked at the scene that I saw. There were
17 Saracens parked facing south on Rossville Street, one
18 quite near the rubble barricade ... Soldiers were
19 everywhere and shooting high-pitched rounds south
20 towards us:
21 "22. Just south of the barricade was a group
22 of boys. Just in front of me to the north was a crowd
23 of about twelve young men who were white with anger.
24 They had stones in their hands ready to throw at the
25 soldiers. Amongst this group, I recognised my son Hugh
1 and his friend Jim Begley, who has since died in a car
2 accident. I shouted at Hugh to come behind the shelter
3 of the southern gable end wall of block 1 of the
4 Rossville flats, but he would not listen. The gang of
5 young men started running north towards the rubble
6 barricade, presumably to throw stones at the soldiers.
7 As they started running north, as well as the
8 continuing single shots, a machine-gun making
9 a 'rat-tat-tat-tat' noise opened up fire from the
10 Kells Walk area and stitched the ground floor west wall
11 of the block 1 of the Rossville flats with bullets.
12 "23. I was focused on my son Hugh who, along
13 with the other boys, started running back towards me
14 out of the line of gunfire. As they came back towards
15 me, I had a glimpse of the form of a young fellow
16 immediately to the south of the barricade in the
17 approximate position marked 18 [which is right in the
18 middle immediately to the south of the barricade].
19 I thought he was taking cover, but he was not moving.
20 I now realise that he could possibly have been either
21 dead or injured. I cannot remember in what position he
22 was lying as I was concentrating on Hugh making it back
23 to me safely.
24 "24. As soon as Hugh and his crowd got back
25 to me, I grabbed hold of him in order to take him away
1 from there and to safety. I told him that we would try
2 and get some ambulances. As I dragged him back to
3 shelter behind the southern gable end wall of
4 block 1 ... I noticed the body of a young man with dark
5 wavy hair, about the same age as Hugh, lying on the
6 ground in the approximate position marked 19 on the
7 attached map in front of the southern gable end wall
8 [that is the Hugh Gilmore position]."
9 I go to paragraph 25:
10 "I noticed that there was a huddle of people
11 cowering down close to the wall in the approximate
12 position marked 20 on the attached map near a telephone
13 kiosk.
14 "26. No sooner had I noticed this crowd
15 huddled together that I dragged Hugh with me and
16 started running south following the approximate route
17 shown with a line of arrows."
18 Perhaps we ought to look at AO31.9. He has
19 seen what is obviously Hugh Gilmore's body at 19 and
20 a crowd at 20 and he then takes the route to
21 Joseph Place, which is revealed by the arrows. Back to
22 where we were, paragraph 26:
23 "There was still intense shooting from north
24 to south down Rossville Street. There was so much
25 shooting that Hugh and I turned left into the gap
1 between the north and south blocks of Joseph Place.
2 People were crammed into the gap and there was no room
3 for us.
4 "27. I turned around to face northwest to
5 see if there was anyone running in after us. Suddenly
6 there was a burst of shots which hit a wall just above
7 my head as I could hear the bullets pelting against the
8 wall although I could not see where the bullets went.
9 In desperation I just launched myself backwards into
10 the crowd. People thought I had been shot. Luckily my
11 cousin, Willie McDermott, was in the crowd and he and
12 Hugh grabbed me and dragged me to the eastern side of
13 this gap to the position marked 21. We found ourselves
14 in a narrow alleyway which ran northeast to southwest
15 and along the rear of Joseph Place."
16 Point 21 appears at AO31.9. It is in the
17 middle between the north and south block of
18 Joseph Place and the alleyway at the back.
19 Paragraph 28:
20 "I heard a shout of 'Da, wait for me' to the
21 north of the alleyway. I spotted my second son, Liam,
22 on top of the walkway from Fahan Street East to the
23 first floor of the Joseph Place maisonettes at the
24 position marked 22. No sooner had Liam shouted this
25 that we heard high-pitched shots ring out from the city
1 walls. Liam put his hand on the railing of the walkway
2 and vaulted clean over it, even though there was a drop
3 of about 14 feet to the ground. Liam ran south to join
4 us and together we crouched and crawled south along the
5 alleyway to the east of Joseph Place as shown on the
6 attached map with a line of arrows, until the wall came
7 to an end at the approximate point marked 23 [which is
8 at the end of the alleyway].
9 "29. Once at this point I realised that we
10 were very exposed, particularly if we were to make our
11 way south across Fahan Street to the relative safety of
12 St Columb's Wells. People were standing at the entry
13 to St Columb's Wells facing us and shouting at us to
14 run across. I was still petrified that we would be
15 shot at from the city walls. There seemed to be a lull
16 in the shooting, so I grabbed my sons and we all ran
17 south over to the Wells. We started walking south up
18 the Wells to try and get away, but people standing
19 there were shouting at us 'Get away from the gap'.
20 I noticed that there was a gap in the buildings on the
21 east side of the street in the approximate position
22 marked 24 on the attached map as there was shooting
23 from the city walls and you could be seen from the city
24 walls if you were standing in the gap."
25 If you go to AO31.9, we can see that the
1 place where he has identified the gap is about where
2 the fifth building down on the east side would be if
3 there was not a gap in St Columb's Wells.
4 Lastly in relation to this area, if we go to
5 AS226.3, we will find the statement of Bernard Smith,
6 who says this:
7 "I reached the houses at Joseph Place at
8 point D [point D is at the northwest corner of the
9 north part of Joseph Place] and turned left and ran in
10 a southwesterly direction tight against the garden
11 walls of the houses at Joseph Place. Whilst I was
12 running past Joseph Place, I looked towards Free Derry
13 Corner and saw a large number of people gathered
14 there. I also saw a lorry parked up against the gable
15 end wall of Free Derry Corner. I reached the midway
16 point of the most southerly block of the flats in
17 Joseph Place at about point E. I could hear more
18 shooting which I believe came from the city walls.
19 "13. I believe that the shots from the walls
20 were being fired towards Free Derry Corner, but despite
21 being exposed to this fire when I reached the southern
22 end of the flats at Joseph Place, I ran south across
23 Fahan Street towards St Columb's Wells. I was
24 conscious of bullets hitting the ground near me as
25 I ran, but I did not stop. I ran past the Well and
1 entered Long Tower Chapel for safety. Whilst inside
2 Long Tower Chapel an English journalist arrived who was
3 visibly frightened. He told me that nine people had
4 been killed that day and he was clearly disgusted."
5 That has dealt with matters on the east side
6 of Rossville Street.
7 MR HOYT: Before you leave this area,
8 I wonder if you could help me with one photograph that
9 you have already done and I have forgotten. It is
10 M65.44, it is one of Mr Peress's photographs, M65.44
11 and it is among the sequence he took of Mr McGuigan.
12 I wonder if you could help me with that?
13 MR CLARKE: It is looking west at
14 Glenfada Park South. One can see the threepenny bits
15 just to the left of the tree. One can see the brick
16 structure that lies between block 2 and the north of
17 Joseph Place. That is what it shows.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Is that a body there?
19 MR CLARKE: Yes, probably, but it does not
20 follow that it is a wounded or a dead body.
21 LORD SAVILLE: There is another picture which
22 Mr Grimaldi took, P318.
23 MR CLARKE: It looks like the same man.
24 LORD SAVILLE: It is very like the same man.
25 That one you may well be able to see Mr McGuigan right
1 at the far end underneath the shop awnings, possibly.
2 MR CLARKE: Yes.
3 LORD SAVILLE: If you go back to the previous
4 photograph, Mr Peress says he took that photograph
5 between taking photographs of Mr Walsh crawling towards
6 Mr Doherty. I am not sure, it may be my recollection
7 is at fault, that we have yet been able to identify
8 that body as somebody alive, dead or wounded.
9 MR CLARKE: Your memory is not at fault. We
10 have not been able to identify him as being in any of
11 those categories. We certainly have not found somebody
12 who was either dead or wounded whose name is known
13 there.
14 LORD SAVILLE: I do not think Mr Peress knows
15 anything about it, apart from the fact that he took
16 that photograph between taking photographs of
17 Mr Doherty.
18 MR CLARKE: As you rightly say, he took two
19 photographs of Mr Doherty, with Mr Walsh crawling
20 towards him. He then turned west and took this
21 photograph and then turned back again. He may have
22 done it in three seconds flat, in the way that
23 photographers do. But his evidence, certainly does not
24 say "and when I went to see Mr McGuigan, as I then did,
25 I also saw on the way a body near the tree."
1 LORD SAVILLE: No, it does not.
2 MR CLARKE: It looks like somebody who has
3 attempted at a particular moment to take what cover
4 there is, because he appears to have aligned himself,
5 to such extent as the human frame would allow, so as to
6 receive whatever cover there was from the tree.
7 LORD SAVILLE: But the photograph Mr Grimaldi
8 took, I do not know what the timing of this was, that
9 is the P318, appears to show the person in almost
10 exactly the same position.
11 MR CLARKE: I do not think that would be
12 particularly surprising, because the photographs that
13 Mr Grimaldi took of Messrs Walsh and Doherty are in
14 practically the same position and if this is a man who
15 is pressing himself to the ground attempting to obtain
16 what cover there was from the tree, you could be pretty
17 assured that he would stay there as immobile as
18 possible until he thought it safe to move.
19 LORD SAVILLE: I suppose it could have been
20 one of the bodies, albeit alive, that some people say
21 they saw in that area, which do not seem to fit any of
22 those we have been able to identify.
23 MR CLARKE: Yes, this could be one of the
24 bodies thought to be perhaps dead who perhaps was not.
25 LORD GIFFORD: While we are on that
1 photograph, I do not know whether those who have looked
2 at the enhancement of photographs can see if we should
3 be thinking that there is anything significant about
4 the flecks on the threepenny bit wall. There seem to
5 be white flecks, a circular pattern, some indeed on the
6 wall of Glenfada Park South just above the threepenny
7 bits; the one, to the untutored eye, to the right on
8 the threepenny bits, looks like a possible bullet
9 hole. I hesitate before drawing possibly wrong
10 conclusions. Certainly on the right-hand side where my
11 friend is pointing, there is (inaudible).
12 MR CLARKE: We can certainly make an effort
13 to blow this up. I share my learned friend's interest
14 together with his doubts, in that it is sometimes not
15 possible to distinguish between significant marks and
16 infirmities in the photograph. I think, if I may say
17 so, that is a sensible suggestion. We will see whether
18 blowing this up can produce any greater information
19 than the photograph presently shows.
20 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you indeed,
21 Lord Gifford.
22 Does anyone else have a query as to the body
23 shown in the two photographs we have been looking at?
24 Anyone who can throw any light on that, of
25 course we would like to hear from them straightaway.
1 At the moment, I think, we simply do not know whether
2 that represents somebody who has been shot or simply
3 somebody who is lying still in order to avoid being
4 shot.
5 MR CLARKE: If there is anybody who reads or
6 sees this and says "that is me" I hope you will contact
7 us as soon as possible.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you, Mr Clarke.
9 MR CLARKE: I now go to the other side of the
10 street, because there are several witnesses who say
11 that they saw shots coming or appearing to come from
12 the walls and striking Fahan Street West.
13 One example of that is John Bonner, whose
14 evidence appears at AB37.6 at paragraph 22. He says
15 this:
16 "When we saw the person lying near Abbey Park
17 we wanted to help and I remember that we both tried to
18 leave the wall where we were crouched, but it was
19 impossible to leave the cover of the wall because the
20 shooting was continuous."
21 The wall they were at, if we look at AB37.9,
22 is at G, that is to say we were in Lisfannon Park on
23 the other side of Fahan Street West on the plan. Go
24 back to 37.6, please, paragraph 22, third line:
25 "I remember seeing bullets hitting the tarmac
1 of the Old Bog Road (Fahan Road West) directly in front
2 of me. I could see the flash of the bullets as they
3 hit the road and I recall seeing the dust and chippings
4 from the impact of the bullets flying to the left
5 (west) of me up Fahan Street West. The road goes
6 uphill westwards from where I was crouched, and this
7 was the direction in which the bullets were flying.
8 I thought at the time that they must have been fired
9 from the city walls, because I had the impression that
10 they were being fired from a great height from the way
11 they struck the road. They were single shots, but
12 there were plenty of them. It was as though one person
13 was taking deliberate aim. The shots I saw all seemed
14 to be fired from the direction of the city walls.
15 "23. It was about ten minutes before the
16 shooting stopped. In the meantime, I was trapped at
17 the wall. I could not leave the wall to go back
18 (north) across the Old Bog Road because of the shooting
19 from the walls. All the time the shooting continued,
20 I could see the body lying in front of Abbey Park. No
21 one else was near the body during the shooting."
22 The body in question turns out to be that of
23 Gerard McKinney, as the later paragraphs shows.
24 One man who has relevant evidence to give is
25 James Coyle, at AC92.2, who ended up in a trench in the
1 building site just to the west of Free Derry Corner, as
2 appears from paragraph 14. He had been at Free Derry
3 Corner and he describes how, in paragraph 12:
4 "After about 15 minutes of this man's speech,
5 I became aware that people were running towards Free
6 Derry Corner from further north up Rossville Street."
7 Paragraph 13, at a certain point:
8 "Somebody then shouted 'They're firing live
9 rounds'."
10 Paragraph 14:
11 "I decided to run for it and take cover.
12 Just to the west of Free Derry Corner was a building
13 site. In this building site was a long trench. The
14 position of this trench is marked on the attached map
15 with a line."
16 The attached map is at AC92.4. He had been
17 at point A. He got into, we shall see, at the trench
18 at point B. Back to 92.2, please, paragraph 14, third
19 line:
20 "Clay had been dug from this trench to
21 a depth of about three or four feet and this clay had
22 been piled up on the east side of the trench. I was
23 able to take full cover in this trench without lying
24 down and I crouched there. I believe the trench may
25 already have had concrete poured into the bottom of
1 it. I cannot remember whether or not there were other
2 people in this trench with me, but there may well have
3 been. The position where I crouched is marked B.
4 "15. I had been crouched in this trench for
5 a matter of seconds when I heard two shots ring out.
6 There was perhaps a gap of about 20 seconds between
7 those two shots. I did not hear a crack or bang as
8 these shots were fired. All I heard was the sound of
9 the bullets whining as they came past me. The sound
10 was like the sound of a large bee. I was crouched in
11 the trench, facing south. I am sure that the bullets
12 did not come from behind me (i.e. from the north), but
13 came from my left (i.e. from the east). I did not see
14 the bullets strike anything. I am sure that these
15 bullets can only have come from somewhere on the city
16 walls to my east.
17 "16. I stayed crouched down in this trench
18 for a further 10 or 15 minutes before I moved off.
19 During this time, I did not hear any further shots."
20 Another witness, Daniel Pius Hutton, whose
21 evidence appears at AH93.4, ended up at the tin hut
22 because at paragraph 15, he says:
23 "The next thing that I recall is that, at
24 some stage, I ended up behind a tin hut to the
25 northeast of Lisfannon Park and the east of
1 Rossville Street. The position of the tin hut is
2 marked by a rectangle at the approximate point K on the
3 attached map. The tin hut was a workman's hut. I am
4 not clear as to whether I was behind the tin hut before
5 I was in Glenfada Park North or whether I was behind
6 the tin hut after I was in Glenfada Park North, and it
7 could have been that I was at the tin hut before I was
8 in Glenfada Park North. I was behind the tin hut with
9 Micky Doherty, although I cannot recollect whether
10 I met up with him or whether I had been with him up to
11 this stage. Having said that that I have no
12 recollection of being with Micky Doherty whilst I was
13 earlier in Glenfada Park North. I recall bullets
14 hitting the ground in front of the tin hut and to the
15 east of it. I had the impression that these shots were
16 coming from the city wall. I do not know why I formed
17 this impression, I just thought that the shooting was
18 coming from a high position."
19 At AH93.9, we will see what is said to be the
20 position of the hut at point K. If we look at EP1.4,
21 I think the hut is that which we are looking at. That
22 is, at any rate, a tin hut in approximately the
23 position where he says it was.
24 Another witness who was also sheltering in
25 the tin hut was Noel Kelly. His evidence appears at
1 AK17.10, where, in the second half of the page, seven
2 lines up from the bottom of paragraph 9, he describes
3 running as fast as he could past Kells Walk, through
4 Columbcille Court, through Glenfada Park North and
5 across the Old Bog Road to a corrugated tin hut which
6 he hid behind, marked on the map with the letter E:
7 "The tin hut had been used by painters
8 refurbishing the area to store paint in and there were
9 maybe six or seven of us behind it at the time.
10 Glenfada Park was between me and the paras. I did not
11 think that they would come in so far.
12 "10. It was, I think, as I was hiding behind
13 that tin hut that I first heard high velocity shots.
14 It may have been before. I saw bullets hitting the
15 ground in front of us and the sparks that came off the
16 concrete. I was very afraid. I realised that this was
17 not run-of-the-mill. I believed that the shots were
18 coming from the direction of the city walls. I said
19 this to the people I was with. I knew that the army
20 was always on the walls and concluded that the shots
21 were coming from there because I saw the bullets hit
22 the ground and that was the only place they could have
23 been coming from. At that stage I was unaware that the
24 army had come down Rossville Street. The tin hut gave
25 us no cover. I shouted a warning to the people I was
1 with and then ran back across the Old Bog Road to the
2 point marked F on the map, which I will refer to as the
3 southeastern corner of Glenfada Park south. By this
4 time there had been, I would guess, approximately
5 twelve shots."
6 If you go to AK17.23, the spot where the hut
7 is referred to is at E. That is not quite in the same
8 place as put by the other witness, but it is in the
9 same general area and he went off in the end to F.
10 There are other witnesses who speak of
11 shooting towards Fahan Street West. If we go to AD2.6,
12 we will find the evidence of Julian Daly. At paragraph
13 32 he recalls running across Fahan Street West, that is
14 from the Abbey Park/Glenfada Park South alleyway:
15 "I ran across Fahan Street West, known as the
16 Old Bog Road, and was still running with my right foot
17 forward when a shot hit the ground, perhaps three
18 inches from my right foot. From the way the shot hit
19 the road behind me and the dust blew up I knew that the
20 shot had come from the Derry walls. This happened at
21 about the point marked P on the attached map.
22 I carried on running towards Lisfannon Park towards
23 point Q. When I had taken cover there I had a good
24 look out at the Derry walls. I saw about five soldiers
25 on the walls carrying rifles. Again, because of the
1 walls, I only saw the soldiers from about the chest
2 upwards. I cannot be more precise about their
3 appearance or numbers."
4 AD2.18 will show us where point P was when
5 the shot landed. Point P is almost in the middle of
6 Fahan Street West, opposite the alley between Abbey
7 Park and Glenfada Park South. If we go to AD148.2, we
8 will find the evidence of John Duddy, where paragraph
9 13, the bottom half of the page, he says:
10 "I left the Kells Walk alleyway and walked
11 along the alleyway between Columbcille Court and the
12 wasteground, along Abbey Street and along
13 Frederick Street. My route is shown marked by arrows
14 on the attached map."
15 That route is at AD148.12. We can see
16 Kells Walk, the street, Abbey Street, Frederick Street
17 and he is about to talk about points 8, which is at the
18 corner of Abbey Street and Frederick Street and points
19 9 and 10. If we go back to 148.2, third line of
20 paragraph 13:
21 "As I was walking along Abbey Street and
22 Frederick Street I met someone else at the point marked
23 8 who told me that my brother-in-law, John Johnston,
24 had been shot. I do not know who that person was.
25 I went along Frederick Street towards Fahan Street West
1 which I called the Bog road. Whilst I was there I saw
2 a lady cross over the Bog Road and throw herself on the
3 ground. I saw her fall into the middle of the road at
4 the point marked 9 on the map. I ran straight out to
5 her because I thought she had been injured. She was
6 all right but told me that she had seen soldiers firing
7 from the walls and that was why she had got down on the
8 ground. She got up and went home to Lisfannon Park.
9 I found out afterwards that the lady was Mrs Duffy.
10 "14. At about the same time I also saw a man
11 being carried across the road. He was being carried
12 from the direction of Abbey Park towards
13 Lisfannon Park. I saw him at the point marked 10."
14 That turned out to be Joe Friel. If we go to
15 AH60.8, we will find the evidence of James
16 Kevin Hegarty, where at paragraph 8 on 60.2, he says at
17 paragraph 7:
18 "When we realised that live bullets had been
19 fired, we left Columbcille Court and made our way down
20 the west side of Abbey Park, to the point which I have
21 marked E on the map. I do not remember hearing any
22 further shooting as we ran to this point."
23 E on the map, AH60.10, it is not the mouth of
24 the alleyway between Abbey Park and Glenfada Park
25 South, but it is further northwest up Fahan Street
1 West. Back to AH60.2, paragraph 8:
2 "We then decided that we would run across
3 Fahan Street West, towards the houses on the other side
4 of the road in Lisfannon Park. As we crossed the road
5 some further shooting seemed to be coming from
6 a southeasterly direction, i.e. the direction of the
7 city walls. I cannot remember exactly how many shots
8 were fired, but it was certainly more than one. I did
9 not see any bullets hit the ground, but the sound of
10 the shooting came from the direction which I have
11 described.
12 "9. We hid behind a wall of a house in
13 Lisfannon Park. I have marked the position of the wall
14 at F. As soon as we got behind the wall the shooting
15 stopped. Very shortly afterwards, a woman whom I knew
16 as Kathleen Kelly (formerly McCourt) appeared at the
17 front of a house opposite in Abbey Park. She was
18 dressed very distinctively in a white teddy bear
19 costume. I have marked the approximate position of the
20 house at G. Kathleen lived in Shantallow and was
21 visiting her mother who lived at Abbey Park. She
22 shouted over to us to say that a fellow was lying shot
23 out the back and she was looking for someone to help.
24 "10. Instinctively, we moved out from behind
25 the wall to cross over and help, but immediately there
1 was a volley of shots. It seemed to me that these were
2 fired from the same direction as the shots that we had
3 heard a few minutes earlier, when we ran across
4 Fahan Street West, i.e. from the direction of the city
5 walls. I do not remember there being any other people
6 in the road at the same time and I therefore believe
7 that the shots were fired at us."
8 If we then go to AH62.5, we will find the
9 evidence of Martin Hegarty, who was from a house
10 somewhere in Glenfada Park, which he does not further
11 identify. He says at paragraph 22:
12 "I cannot remember how long I stayed in the
13 house, it was approximately an hour. I remember that
14 at one point I was going to try and make a run for it
15 with some others but when we looked out, I saw bullets
16 bouncing off the Old Bog Road. People were saying that
17 the soldiers were shooting from the Derry walls. I do
18 not know which direction the bullets I saw were coming
19 from. Until then, I had sensed that all the shooting
20 was coming from behind me, i.e. from the north, but the
21 bullets hitting the Old Bog Road did not appear to be
22 coming from that direction, they were travelling along
23 the length of the road. This shooting was not as
24 intense as the shooting I had heard in Glenfada Park.
25 "23. All of a sudden the commotion stopped.
1 It was as if someone had suddenly called a halt to the
2 shooting. All the background noise of events and army
3 vehicles stopped as well. It took some time for us all
4 to leave the house. We were not sure whether it was
5 safe to do so. When I did leave the house, people were
6 just walking around in a daze. I went straight home.
7 I think I possibly left the house at about 5.00 pm."
8 If we go to 12.13.2, you will find the
9 evidence of John Kelly, Michael Kelly's brother. At
10 paragraph 7, he says this:
11 "When I reached Lisfannon Park, I took
12 cover. The buildings at Lisfannon Park were at that
13 time being built and there were low walls to hide
14 behind. I met my brother-in-law, George Cooley, there
15 at the point marked 4 in square E17."
16 AK13.16 will show us where he is talking
17 about. The point marked 4 in square E.17 is the one to
18 which I am now pointing. Back to where we were.
19 Paragraph 7, third line:
20 " ... and we talked for a few minutes.
21 I could see crowds gathered between Abbey Park and
22 Glenfada Park and after a few minutes we decided to go
23 and see what was happening. However, as we stepped out
24 to do so, two bullets hit the ground immediately in
25 front of us (the point marked 5) and there were clouds
1 of dust. The ground was covered in dust and dirt from
2 the buildings. Those bullets were fired from the city
3 walls to my right. I cannot imagine that they were
4 coming from any other direction and the angle at which
5 they hit the ground meant that they were being fired
6 from a height and from that direction. I looked up and
7 I saw the soldiers on the city wall to my right, but
8 I did not see any rifles. This was a split second
9 look. The bullets were aimed at us. I have no doubt
10 about this. We jumped back behind the wall. If the
11 bullets had been coming from the Abbey Park area we
12 could still have been easily shot as the wall would
13 have offered no protection. The bullets were
14 definitely fired from the walls.
15 "8. After a few minutes there were a lull in
16 the shooting and we made a run for it across
17 Fahan Street West and toward the southwestern corner of
18 Glenfada Park North."
19 If we go to AM97.4, we will find the evidence
20 of Paddy McCauley, who says:
21 "It was whilst I was at the point marked G
22 that I first heard any shooting on Bloody Sunday."
23 The point marked G is at AM97.13 and he also
24 was one of those in Lisfannon Park, as we can see from
25 the map, AM97.4:
1 "I was used to judging the direction from
2 which the sound of firing came and in my view the shots
3 I heard as I stood at the point marked G came from the
4 direction of the city walls. I also saw bullets, about
5 two or three in number, hitting and bouncing off the
6 Bogside Road in front of me. The shots came from high
7 velocity rifles. The sharp cracking noise they made
8 was unmistakable.
9 "19. When I heard and saw the shots and
10 bullets, I said to myself that I had to get to the
11 safety of Glenfada Park North. As I was about to cross
12 back over the Bogside Road in the direction of
13 Glenfada Park, a man who was standing near me and
14 others who were taking cover in Lisfannon Park shouted
15 to me 'You should not be running. You will be hit.
16 They are shooting from the city walls'. Regardless,
17 I ran across the Bogside Road with my hands in the
18 air. I knew that this was the procedure. If you
19 raised your hands when there was shooting going on, you
20 would not be shot. No shots were fired as I ran across
21 the Bogside Road in a northerly direction and on to the
22 path between Abbey Park and Glenfada Park South."
23 Charles McGuigan is Bernard McGuigan's son.
24 His evidence is at AM269.3. His evidence is that he
25 was shot at whilst with a boy named Pearse when in the
1 gap between Columbcille Court and Glenfada Park North.
2 At paragraph 23 he says:
3 "I then ran between Glenfada Park and Abbey
4 Park until I reached Fahan Street West. I stopped on
5 the pavement there at a point in the bottom right-hand
6 corner of the square marked F15."
7 The square marked F15 is at the mouth of the
8 alley between Abbey Park and Glenfada Park South:
9 "24. I looked to my left up towards
10 Joseph Place and I heard shots being fired. The sound
11 that I heard was the sound of bullets striking the
12 ground. I also saw dust rising from the ground where
13 the bullets had struck. I heard approximately six to
14 eight shots. These were single shots and were not
15 machine-gun shots. The shots were landing on
16 Fahan Street West at a point at approximately the lower
17 left-hand corner of the square marked G17/F17."
18 If we look at AM269.20, the square G17/F17
19 are the squares I am highlighting now, it is actually
20 two squares, it is the lower left-hand corner of one of
21 them. If we go back to where we were, he says,
22 paragraph 24:
23 "Photograph 6 shows the view that I had from
24 that point, looking up towards Joseph Place. I would
25 say that the shots landed at that point on Fahan Street
1 West where there is now a pedestrian crossing."
2 AM269.16 is the picture. That shows the view
3 that he had and the pedestrian crossing, I think, has
4 come out rather badly, but it is just visible on the
5 photograph. If we then go back to 269.3, paragraph 25:
6 "There were no people in the area where these
7 shots were hitting. I immediately formed the
8 impression that these shots were not aimed at
9 individual persons, but were in fact fired to prevent
10 people moving about in the area. I also thought that
11 these shots could only have been fired from the city
12 walls. The shots seemed to be coming down into the
13 ground at quite a steep angle and were buried into the
14 road. Judging by the direction of the puffs of dust at
15 the bullets struck the ground I would say that the
16 bullets had to be fired from a position on the city
17 walls, from a position behind Joseph Place, so that
18 whoever was firing those shots was looking straight
19 down Fahan Street West."
20 Then he says where that position would be:
21 "26. Photograph 1 is an aerial photograph of
22 the area. I have marked with an A the approximate area
23 where the shots hit the ground and I have marked with
24 a B the area where I was standing."
25 If we look at 269.13, the "A" is the
1 approximate area where he says the shots hit the
2 ground, which is where the zebra crossing now is. "B"
3 is the place where he says that he was. Then he said
4 he took shelter in a nearby house.
5 If we go to AO27.2, we will find the
6 statement of Eugene O'Donnell, who was one of those who
7 carried Joe Friel out into a car, parked in Fahan
8 Street West. What he says is this at paragraph 16, the
9 bottom half of the page:
10 "CIV 1 got into the driver's seat and
11 the other man got into the passenger seat beside him.
12 The position of the car is marked at point C."
13 Point C is at AO27.6. It is the house in
14 Lisfannon Park that faces on to Glenfada Park South,
15 just above the "P" of Lisfannon Park on the plan.
16 If we go back to AO27.2, the bottom half of
17 the page:
18 "17. While we were carrying Joe out into
19 the car, I heard more shooting. This was shooting of
20 a continuous nature. It sounded to me like rapid rifle
21 fire, the sound had an echo to it. I cannot really
22 explain why, but I was certain that this shooting was
23 coming from the city walls. The sound was definitely
24 different to the sound of shooting that I had heard
25 coming down Rossville Street. I had lived in the
1 Creggan all my life and was familiar with the sound of
2 gunfire and would not have confused it with anything
3 else.
4 "18. The sound of this shooting continued
5 while we were driving the car away from the area."
6 If you go to AO42.2, you will find the
7 evidence of Joan O'Hagan who says at paragraph 13:
8 "The next thing I remember is running west
9 between two gable end walls in Lisfannon Park.
10 I cannot now recall exactly where this was. I remember
11 feeling that I was okay because I was in cover. Then
12 someone shouted 'Get down'. I remember thinking to
13 myself 'Where are the shots coming from?'. As I got
14 down I had a sense that a bullet had just whizzed past
15 my head. The fear was unbelievable. I lay flat on the
16 ground on my front, in between the two gable end
17 walls. I remember thinking that the shots seemed to be
18 coming from higher up. I think they came from the city
19 walls. I did not look back at the time towards the
20 walls, but I knew I could see them from where I was.
21 "14. At appendix 2 is a diagram I have drawn
22 to show how the alleyway between the two gable walls
23 lay in relation to the city walls. It was more
24 frightening as I lay on the ground between the two
25 gable end walls than it had been when I was in
1 Rossville Street.
2 "15. The shots sounded like a crack. They
3 continued and intensified as I lay on the ground.
4 I was there for probably a couple of minutes, but it
5 seemed like a lifetime. There was then a lull and
6 others started to move, so I decided to go home via
7 Westland Street."
8 The diagram is at AO42.4. She is describing
9 herself as being between two gable walls and the shot
10 coming from the walls as she was in that position.
11 I am not sure how it fits into the geography of
12 Lisfannon Park, but that is what the diagram shows.
13 If you go to AM392.2, you will find the
14 evidence of Rosaleen Meehan, who says, in paragraph 7:
15 "There was a large crowd of people gathered
16 at Free Derry Corner although I cannot recall how many
17 people there were. We were waiting for the speakers
18 but I do not now recall having seen or heard any of the
19 speakers. I recall standing and chatting with my
20 friends at point C on the attached photograph.
21 "8. All of a sudden there was a big blather
22 of shots. I was familiar with the sound of live
23 gunfire because it was a regular occurrence in Derry at
24 the time. I was aware of the difference between the
25 sound of rubber bullets and live shots. I was
1 terrified and became separated from my friends in the
2 panic. After the burst of gunfire I ran to
3 Lisfannon Park and took shelter behind the low wall of
4 a garden at point D on the attached photograph. "
5 The attached photograph is at AM392.4. She
6 had been at point C. When firing starts she moves to
7 point D. When she says "the low wall of a garden",
8 I assume she means literally the wall where my arrow
9 has landed, which surrounds the quasi triangle of grass
10 to the east of the houses in Lisfannon Park.
11 . If we go back to 392.2, she says this:
12 "The wall was approximately two and a half
13 feet high. There were other people sheltering behind
14 the wall and there was a lot of screaming. Some people
15 just got on the ground where they had been standing in
16 Free Derry Corner. From my position at D, I looked
17 east over the low wall and saw a bullet hit and chip
18 another wall in front of me at E on the attached
19 photograph. I saw dust rise up from the wall. I heard
20 someone say 'They're shooting from the walls', although
21 I do not know who said this. There was a sense of
22 disbelief that live shots were being fired. I knew it
23 was the army shooting."
24 E, if we go back to AM392.4, is indeed
25 further to the east, where the triangle that I am
1 talking about meets the pavement to the east of
2 itself.
3 Lastly under this heading at AD64.3, we will
4 find the evidence of Eileen Doherty, who says, at
5 paragraph 21, the bottom half of the page:
6 "I went across the Bog Road (Fahan Street
7 West) to Eglington Terrace and to Blucher Street.
8 Where Blucher Street opens into Westland Street I saw
9 crowds of people running towards the Creggan. There
10 were bullets flying up the street and there were tracer
11 bullets and I saw lights going up the street. I think
12 it was about 4.00 pm or 4.30 pm. It may have been
13 starting to get dark at the time. People were running
14 like cattle. The shots must have been from the city
15 walls, they could not have been from anywhere else.
16 When the army fired from the city walls they always
17 seemed to fire up that street."
18 If we remind ourselves, if we look at Q8,
19 this witness is not talking, as other witnesses have
20 been, about shots landing in Fahan Street West or
21 around Lisfannon Park or Free Derry Corner; the shots
22 are going up Westland Street, which is two streets to
23 the south of Fahan Street West.
24 There is one witness who recalls bullets
25 landing on the Stardust Hall, which I am now pointing
1 to. If you go to AJ14.3, paragraph 15, she says:
2 "At this point my memory is somewhat
3 blurred. For the next 10 or 15 minutes I cannot recall
4 exactly what happened. My recollection from revisiting
5 the location recently is that I ran from the Rossville
6 flats to Glenfada Park North and through Glenfada Park
7 North towards Abbey Park. At Abbey Park my
8 recollection now is that I immediately turned to my
9 left (south) and ran south towards Fahan Street West
10 and towards Eglington Place.
11 "16. I was heading for Eglington Place.
12 Immediately as I began to run to my left (south) at
13 Abbey Park I heard very quick, frequent firing along
14 the wall to my right. I did not know then and cannot
15 say now whether these were high velocity bullets. All
16 I can remember is that they were continuous, i.e. the
17 shots were close together, and they were live
18 ammunition. As I looked up to my right I saw the
19 lettering on the Stardust Hall, which is the old dance
20 hall, and heard bullets hitting it. I was extremely
21 scared. I thought I was being shot at and I was
22 running for my life. Although I cannot be sure which
23 street I was running up, the bullets were coming from
24 behind me. The sound of the bullets were level with my
25 right ear and I do not think I was crouching as I ran.
1 As to how many shots there were, all I can say is that
2 it seemed like lots. I was not carrying anything in my
3 hands. The only thing I seem to recall carrying, over
4 my shoulder, was my handbag."
5 Sir, I wonder whether that would be
6 a convenient moment.
7 LORD SAVILLE: Yes.
8 Lord Gifford?
9 LORD GIFFORD: Sir, we think we have come
10 close to solving the mystery of the prone body in front
11 of Joseph Place. We think it is Patrick Clarke. If we
12 could have AC64.6, there is a portion of his statement
13 in paragraph 17, where he describes crawling out of the
14 flat which we think is the first house in Joseph
15 Place. He is crawling towards block 1 and he says:
16 "There was another burst of shooting and
17 I lay down still on the ground for a few minutes."
18 He then mentions seeing a Saracen picking up
19 the bodies. If one looks at EP26.18, one sees the
20 photograph of the prone man taken by Mr Grimaldi.
21 Although there is a Saracen in that photograph, in
22 EP26.20, which I imagine was taken quite shortly
23 afterwards, we see that Mr Grimaldi has captured the
24 Saracen, which by then has reversed into making its
25 turn, having collected the bodies.
1 Mr Clarke describes himself as lying down
2 with his face towards that direction and having stayed
3 in a position which one can identify as being close to
4 that position for a few minutes. No doubt we can
5 follow it up with him in due course, but you invited
6 a theory and we think that is a theory.
7 LORD SAVILLE: It certainly sounds a theory
8 to have some substance. We will certainly have to
9 follow it up in due course. It does not appear that
10 Mr Clarke was shown these photographs, either -- I have
11 804 and you have the one preceding EP26.18. We can do
12 that in due course if we can all make a note to remind
13 ourselves when it comes to his evidence, or before, if
14 someone is going to contact him. Thank you very much
15 for that suggestion.
16 We will adjourn now until 9.30 on Monday. It
17 was brought to our attention at lunchtime from
18 Eversheds that there are some four dozen civilian
19 statements that really fall into the same category as
20 the soldiers and RUC statements on which we made
21 rulings last week and this morning. It seems to us
22 inevitable that we must make the same ruling in respect
23 of those, that is to say, those civilian statements
24 that have been signed, that are awaiting signature or
25 awaiting possible amendments for more than a month from
1 today's date, unless they are produced by 30th July,
2 the Tribunal is minded to distribute the drafts. As
3 with the other rulings, this is what I described this
4 morning as a "rolling ruling".
5 (3.05 pm)
6 Proceedings adjourned until
7 Monday, 26th June 2000 at 9.30 am