1 Monday, 2nd February 2004
2 (9.40 am)
3 MR IVAN COOPER, sworn
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE
5 LORD SAVILLE: I see that Mr Frankson has already pointed
6 you in my direction, so I will say to you what I say to
7 all the witnesses. I am the Chairman. The questions
8 will come from the barristers in front of me. Could you
9 remember to keep close to that microphone on your desk,
10 you can pull it towards you if you like, and then we
11 will be able to hear what you have to say.
12 MR CLARKE: Mr Cooper, you have made four statements to this
13 Tribunal, the first page of the first of which is on the
14 screen. The second is at KC12.81, which is signed on
15 8th April 2002. The third is at KC12.95, which was
16 signed on 19th August 2002, and the fourth is the
17 KC12.108, which was signed on 3rd February 2003.
18 Are the contents of those statements true to the
19 best of your knowledge and belief?
20 A. Yes, they are.
21 Q. I should explain that everybody in this room has had the
22 opportunity to read those statements so I am not going
23 to go through them piece by piece but take matters that
24 arise out of them. I should also explain that certain
25 individuals have been held entitled to anonymity in
1 these proceedings or have been given anonymity pro tem,
2 largely members or alleged members of either wing of the
3 IRA, so you may find that what appears on the screen has
4 either a cipher or a blank where your copy of the
5 statement has a name. Please do not mention the true
6 name of the person if that occurs; that may well require
7 some degree of circumlocution, but we will deal with
8 that if and as and when it arises.
9 Could we go back, please, to KC12.14, the first page
10 of your statement, paragraph 2. You describe in
11 paragraph 2 the march which took place in this city,
12 organised by the Northern Ireland Civil Rights
13 Association on 5th October 1968 and the meeting that
14 followed it on 9th October of that year at a hotel in
15 Derry, as a result of which the Derry Citizens Action
16 Committee was formed.
17 I do not want to go into this in any detail because
18 it is way before Bloody Sunday, but could you help me on
19 one thing: there is reference in some of the documents
20 to an organisation called the DHAC, which I think is the
21 Derry Housing Action Committee?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did they have anything to do with the original march on
24 5th October 1968?
25 A. I do not think they were formed at that stage, but the
1 primary reason for the march on 5th October was directly
2 related to housing.
3 Q. Was it organised, so far as people in Derry were
4 concerned, by people who were concerned about housing
5 issues?
6 A. The decision to hold the march on 5th October 1968 was
7 taken on the steps of this building after a housing
8 protest in the chamber.
9 Q. Is it right that after the march there had been several
10 days of rioting in the city?
11 A. In 1968?
12 Q. Yes?
13 A. There was not significant rioting. Some windows were
14 broken in the centre of the city, but I would not have
15 described it as "significant rioting", compared to what
16 we learned in following years.
17 Q. You say that:
18 "The Derry Citizens Action Committee was formed,
19 which was determined to raise and address the issue of
20 civil rights in Derry in a more autonomous way than the
21 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was able to
22 do."
23 What exactly did you mean by "a more autonomous
24 way"?
25 A. Derry was the Achilles's heel of the entire civil rights
1 problem in Northern Ireland. This is where we had
2 gerrymandering in a very blatant way. This is where it
3 was easy to illustrate the -- in a very, very strong way
4 the absence of the franchise; it also characterised the
5 use of housing as a tool to prevent people having votes
6 in local government elections, so Derry was, was
7 consistent with the entire denial of civil rights and,
8 therefore, it was felt that we should have an
9 organisation in the city capable of highlighting our
10 various denials of civil rights.
11 Q. When you use the expression "in a more autonomous way
12 than the Northern Ireland Civil Rights
13 Association," does that in effect mean in a way that was
14 specifically related to Derry?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was there also a desire to have a body -- in the event
17 the Derry Citizens Action Committee -- that was not
18 Republican-controlled or influenced?
19 A. There were people who were members of the committee of
20 15; there were 15 members on the Derry Citizens Action
21 Committee and some of them, it was known, were
22 Republicans. I would not have described the
23 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association as being
24 dominated by Republicans. So there were members drawn
25 from the Republican community in the Derry Citizens
1 Action Committee.
2 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 3 to 5 on this page.
3 You describe in paragraph 4 how, in 1969 you were
4 elected as the Member of Parliament for mid-Derry and,
5 as a result of having your constituency
6 responsibilities, you did not assume the same degree of
7 hands-on responsibility in the non-violent struggle for
8 civil rights.
9 Did you in fact cease to be the Chairman of the
10 Derry Citizens Action Committee after you became
11 a Member of Parliament?
12 A. Not immediately after, but it was felt that with the
13 attainment of most of the civil rights demands which
14 occurred the latter part 1968 and then the election of
15 three civil rights Members of Parliament into the
16 Stormont Parliament, it was felt that the Derry Citizens
17 Action Committee did not really have a continuing
18 function.
19 So it was, to a large degree phased out.
20 Q. You describe in paragraph 5 the introduction of
21 internment without trial, which we know came in on
22 9th August 1971. You describe how you were arrested in
23 Laburnum Terrace in that month, by a troop under the
24 command of Paddy Ashdown.
25 Is it right your arrest and one of the others was
1 that that led to the well-known case of Regina v The
2 Londonderry Justices, which held that the Stormont
3 Government did not have power to confer powers of arrest
4 on the Army?
5 A. That is so.
6 Q. May we come, please, to paragraph 6 on the next page.
7 You describe in that paragraph being on the march at
8 Magilligan, how that was the first time you became
9 conscious of the role of the Paras and how they struck
10 you, putting it shortly, as very belligerent. Were you
11 injured in any way on that march?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. In what way?
14 A. I had been struck by a rubber bullet which had been
15 fired by a member of the Parachute Regiment, struck on
16 the head.
17 Q. Could I have on the screen, please, KC12.31. Can I tell
18 you what this is, appended to your statement. It is the
19 transcript of an interview with you, portions of which
20 appeared in the documentary "Secret History", which was
21 broadcast on television in the late 1990s.
22 Do you remember being interviewed for that
23 programme?
24 A. No, I do not.
25 Q. Can we have KC12.32. It is a relatively small point.
1 But in the account of what happened at Magilligan, you
2 are recorded as saying, this:
3 "... and for the first time I came face to face with
4 paratroopers and they were a different kettle of fish to
5 what we had normally had in Derry amongst the military
6 fraternity. These were really tough individuals and
7 indeed I suffered at the hands of the paratroopers at
8 Magilligan beach because immediately after talking to
9 a senior police officer, a sergeant fired a rubber
10 bullet and knocked me cold for over half an hour, so
11 this was a different breed of soldier."
12 That was a reference, was it, to a sergeant in the
13 paratroopers?
14 A. Yes, it was.
15 Q. May we come, back, please, to KC12.15, paragraphs 7 to
16 9. You say in paragraph 7:
17 "In hindsight the protest at Magilligan was futile
18 as the marchers were diverted on to Magilligan beach"
19 and it achieved no more than publicity, which
20 highlighted the fact that there was an internment camp
21 at Magilligan.
22 What more had it aimed to achieve?
23 A. The intention had been for people to handcuff themselves
24 to the entrances to the camp, non-violent protest, the
25 use of handcuffs and sitting down at the entrances to
1 the camp; that had been the objective.
2 Q. Who had organised Magilligan?
3 A. North Derry Civil Rights Association.
4 Q. You then describe in paragraph 9 how you had a very
5 minor part to play in the organisation of the march
6 which was to take place on 30th January. You say that
7 the Derry Citizens Action Committee may have had some
8 informal involvement in the organisation, but the march
9 was organised principally by a local committee of NICRA.
10 Kevin McCorry, the full-time NICRA man, was mainly
11 responsible for the organisation of the march.
12 Were you a member of NICRA?
13 A. Yes, I was, and the Derry Citizens Action Committee,
14 when it was in existence, was affiliated to NICRA.
15 Q. What was the very minor part that you had to play in the
16 organisation of the march?
17 A. Well, immediately after Magilligan, a number of
18 individuals had approached me about the consequences of
19 the use of the paratroopers at Magilligan. In addition
20 to that I was involved in consultations with the local
21 organisers; I was spoken, on a number of occasions --
22 I was spoken to on a number of occasions by Kevin
23 McCorry; on occasions I expressed reservations about
24 aspects.
25 Q. Can you remember what aspects you had reservations
1 about?
2 A. Originally the intention was to have several marches,
3 marches converging on the Guildhall. That sort of plan
4 would have entailed a very large number of stewards and
5 I did not believe that the manpower would be there in
6 order to have those feeder parades.
7 Q. Were there any other aspects that you expressed concern
8 about?
9 A. When you are organising a march you are always concerned
10 about confrontation with Loyalists and every step would
11 be taken to avoid confrontation and conflict.
12 Q. May we have, please, on the screen, paragraphs 10 to the
13 end. You describe in paragraph 10 how, within your own
14 political grouping, there was debate as to whether the
15 march should be supported. When it was discussed at
16 formal party level, there were three MPs in favour of
17 the march, two opposed to the march and Austin Currie
18 assumed a neutral role.
19 What was the basic ground of opposition of John Hume
20 and Gerry Fitt which caused them to take the stance that
21 they did?
22 A. I would remind you that John Hume attended the march at
23 Magilligan.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. So he witnessed at first hand the tactics of the
1 paratroopers. The reservations of John Hume and
2 Gerry Fitt hinged around what had been witnessed, and
3 the account given by John Hume and myself to the
4 meeting; the reservations were purely around the use of
5 the paratroopers.
6 Q. Austin Currie's neutrality, it may be difficult to
7 explain a neutral position, but was there a reason?
8 A. I cannot, I cannot recollect it.
9 Q. Can we come over the page, please, to paragraph 12. You
10 say there that you were concerned:
11 "... that the IRA would view the march by the
12 dynamic and powerful civil rights movement as an
13 opportunity to create a confrontation with the military
14 and the Security Forces."
15 When you use the expression "to create
16 a confrontation," what sort of confrontation were you
17 apprehending?
18 A. I was not apprehending any confrontation, I was
19 concerned that the IRA would endeavour to use the civil
20 rights march as an opportunity to fire shots or
21 something else at the military. In other words, I was
22 concerned that they would use the civil rights march.
23 Q. The Tribunal has been given a fair amount of evidence
24 including evidence from members of both wings of the IRA
25 that the IRA would not and did not use civil rights
1 marches as an opportunity to fire at or to attack the
2 Security Forces.
3 Nevertheless, that was something you feared they
4 might do, was it?
5 A. It was always a matter of concern. You have got to
6 remember that we had many civil rights marches in 1968
7 and 1969; a considerable period had elapsed until this
8 march was being held. In other words, quite some months
9 had elapsed and in that interim period the IRA had
10 become active. Therefore, it was a new consideration;
11 it was a new part of the equation. I did not have any
12 specific knowledge that they were going to do that,
13 I simply wanted to make certain that the occasion would
14 not be used.
15 Q. Had you had any experience in the past in which either
16 wing of the IRA had used a civil rights march as an
17 opportunity to confront the Security Forces?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Could we have on the screen KC12.35. This is another
20 portion of the interview, part of which became the
21 programme "Secret History." There is an expression that
22 is attributed to you, the very top of the page:
23 "The IRA had latched on to civil rights
24 demonstrations."
25 Do you know what you would have meant by the phrase:
1 "The IRA had latched on to civil rights
2 demonstrations"?
3 A. Individuals who could quite clearly be identified as
4 people who were involved with the IRA.
5 Q. In what way had they latched on, you mean simply taken
6 part in or something else?
7 A. Taken part in.
8 Q. May we come, please, back to KC12.16, paragraphs 12 to
9 13. You describe in paragraph 12 how, because of your
10 concern, a few days prior to the march you approached an
11 intermediary and asked him to make arrangements on your
12 behalf for you to meet a representative of the IRA.
13 Was that intermediary, so far as you were aware,
14 himself a member of the IRA?
15 A. Absolutely not.
16 Q. Who was the intermediary?
17 A. Paddy Devlin, MP.
18 Q. You then met four members of the IRA, three of whom you
19 already knew. Do you recall whereabouts you met --
20 A. In Creggan.
21 Q. In the Creggan. When we are talking about the IRA, we
22 are talking about the Provisional wing, are we?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You knew three of them. Did you know what position they
25 held in the Provisionals?
1 A. I only knew the position held by one of them.
2 Q. What position was that?
3 A. What they call in local terms, the OC.
4 Q. On the small machine to your left, if Mr Frankson could
5 show you, I have sent to you a name. Please do not
6 mention the name, but was the person whom you are
7 referring to as the OC the individual whose name now
8 appears upon your computer by your left-hand side?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So far as the other two whom you knew are concerned,
11 please do not mention their name but would you be able
12 to type in on that machine the true name of those two
13 persons. (Pause). (Handed)
14 You have written, as I understand it, on this piece
15 of paper the names of the other three insofar as known;
16 is that right?
17 A. (Witness nodding)
18 Q. And some of them only by their surname. I should say
19 that the name of one of them is the individual known to
20 us as PIRA 17 and the surname of one of them is the
21 surname of either PIRA 9 or PIRA 10.
22 You say there that at this meeting you made it
23 absolutely clear that the march would have to be
24 a non-violent march with no involvement by the IRA:
25 "... failing which I would use my influence to seek
1 to have the march cancelled" and sought an assurance to
2 this effect.
3 Apart from yourself and the four members of the IRA
4 whom you saw, was anybody else present at the meeting?
5 A. No. Can I make the point --
6 Q. Yes?
7 A. -- that not all members of the IRA were present during
8 the meeting; there was quite a bit of coming out and in
9 of doors.
10 Q. I think you say somewhere -- I do not have the reference
11 in mind -- that there were two people who were there as
12 it were all the time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And two who wandered in and wandered out; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You record in paragraph 13 that you received
17 confirmation 48 hours after the meeting that the IRA
18 would locate itself on the Creggan and would confine
19 itself to the Creggan estate while the march proceeded.
20 How did you receive that confirmation?
21 A. By telephone.
22 Q. Was it one of the four who telephoned you or somebody
23 else?
24 A. It was one of the four.
25 Q. It is obvious from the fact that you did not receive
1 confirmation until 48 hours after your meeting that you
2 were not given an immediate assurance that there would
3 be no involvement by the IRA. Do you recall what, if
4 anything, was the official reaction to your request for
5 such an assurance?
6 A. It is not unusual if you have been involved in meetings,
7 as I have in the past with the IRA, it is not unusual
8 that they do not give an immediate reaction. The normal
9 procedure is that they listen, and I presume they report
10 to somewhere else and come back -- or they reached
11 a decision themselves after that, but it is not abnormal
12 that you have to wait.
13 Q. Could we have on the screen KC12.38. This is another
14 part of the interview for the "Secret History"
15 programme. There is a passage where this is attributed
16 to you. You are asked:
17 "Question: And did he give you that undertaking?"
18 Your reply was:
19 "I had to wait until the Thursday, which was what,
20 two days prior to the march, before I was contacted
21 again ..."
22 Do you have a recollection that it was on the
23 Thursday that you were contacted?
24 A. It was the Thursday, but that is more than two days
25 prior to the march, but it was the Thursday.
1 Q. You were then asked this:
2 "Question: Why should you believe that undertaking
3 as real?"
4 The reply was this:
5 "This is a very small community and I have been
6 coming to the Bogside since I was 12 years of age.
7 I worked in the shirt factory, it is a small community,
8 your ear was very close to the ground. I was satisfied,
9 extremely satisfied that I had got that assurance.
10 I had also believed that he would process it through the
11 channels that they had to, but from other contacts
12 I had, I was satisfied that he had gone through the
13 channels."
14 Can you tell us what you were referring to in that
15 sentence; what the channels were and what the nature of
16 the contact was that made you satisfied that he had gone
17 through them?
18 A. Well, I, I presume that because the march had been
19 billed as quite a large occasion, I assume that he had
20 to get or they had to get direction from some aspect of
21 their command structure. It was billed as a large
22 march. We had the events of Magilligan the previous
23 week and there was a great deal of coverage in the press
24 et cetera about the forthcoming march.
25 So I was satisfied from -- I do not believe that
1 I was the only person who made representations to the
2 IRA; I believe there were others.
3 Q. What was the contact you had that satisfied you the
4 proper channels had been gone through?
5 A. I had heard that a direction would be given that there
6 would be no arms in the Bogside on the day of the march.
7 Q. Is this something that you had heard from somebody other
8 than the four people you saw in the Creggan?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that from another member of the IRA or from --
11 A. No.
12 Q. Or from gossip or what?
13 A. No, it was substantially more than gossip. As I said to
14 you earlier on, it is my view that other people also
15 made representations and the feedback which we were
16 getting was that the decision had been taken that guns
17 would be kept out of the Bogside on the day of the
18 march.
19 Q. Do you know who else had made representations?
20 A. I believe that Brigid Bond may well have made
21 representations, I believe that some clerics had made
22 representations and I believe at least one businessman
23 made representations.
24 Q. Is that because any of those three told you that they
25 had?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did Brigid Bond tell you that she had made
3 representations?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was that to the Provisionals or the Officials or both?
6 A. My subject for discussion with her was the Provisionals.
7 Q. You understood from her that she also had made
8 representation to the Provisionals?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And clerics; who were you talking about?
11 A. I am talking about, about clerics who were associated
12 with the, with the St Eugene's parish.
13 Q. Who was that?
14 A. Father O'Neill.
15 Q. You understood from him that he had --
16 A. Well, I understood from him that representations had
17 been made by clerics, I do not know if he made them
18 himself.
19 Q. And the businessman?
20 A. I do not wish to say who he was.
21 Q. May we go back, please, to KC12.16. May we have
22 paragraphs 13 to 15. You say that as a result of this
23 confirmation you were fairly satisfied that there was
24 a realistic chance that the march could take place
25 without the threats of serious violence.
1 Had you had yourself any contact on this or
2 communication on this score with the Officials?
3 A. I had spoken informally to two members of the Officials,
4 but as I have said in my statement their star was on the
5 wane at this particular time. The number of people that
6 they had on the ground were diminishing rapidly, but
7 I did have informal contact with two people.
8 Q. What was the upshot of that?
9 A. They did not give me any undertakings.
10 Q. Had you asked for an undertaking?
11 A. Yes, I had.
12 Q. Did they tell you anything about what their plans were
13 or were not?
14 A. No, they did not tell me.
15 Q. We have heard quite a lot of evidence from quite a lot
16 of Officials. Would you be able to -- if Mr Frankson
17 could produce another piece of paper -- to indicate whom
18 the two Officials were to whom you spoke. (Pause).
19 (Handed)
20 One is Red Mickey Doherty, who is not anonymous, and
21 the other is OIRA 1.
22 You then describe in paragraph 14 how you also had
23 meetings with people in Derry and informal discussions
24 with the police which made you reasonably confident that
25 the march would be able to go ahead without a serious
1 outbreak of violence.
2 When you say that you had informal discussions with
3 the police, is that a reference to the conversation that
4 you talk about in the immediately following paragraph
5 with Chief Superintendent Lagan or is it a reference to
6 other discussions?
7 A. Any discussions that I had with the police were with
8 Mr Lagan. I did not have any discussions with any other
9 police officer.
10 Q. You say in paragraph 15 that a few days before the march
11 you had a telephone conversation with Mr Lagan, in the
12 course of which he asked you to explain the plans for
13 the march, that at this stage the plan was that part of
14 the march would start from Shantallow and also from the
15 Waterside. You describe how he was concerned at the
16 risk of feeder parades and, therefore, the plan was
17 changed.
18 Is what you are saying that the plan changed because
19 of something you did as a result of this conversation
20 with Mr Lagan?
21 A. No, I am not saying that.
22 Q. Did Mr Lagan's views become known and therefore the plan
23 was changed; is there a causal link between the
24 conversation and the change or --
25 A. Undoubtedly there was a link. Mr Lagan was particularly
1 concerned about the march planned from the Waterside.
2 There had been, there had been a march through the
3 Waterside in January 1969, which had been attacked and
4 I think that he was greatly concerned about the
5 sectarian aspect of it, that it could lead to conflict,
6 that was his main concern.
7 Q. In the light of those concerns, the Shantallow part of
8 the march never took place?
9 A. Well, people -- as the result of my conversation with
10 Mr Lagan, and as a result of my conversation with
11 a number of other people -- there were literally
12 hundreds of meetings going on. The clergy played a very
13 important part in those meetings and so did the business
14 community and I think that some pressure was brought on
15 the civil rights organisers to leave the Shantallow
16 march.
17 Q. You say in paragraph 15 that you discussed with
18 Mr Lagan:
19 "... who was well respected and generally regarded
20 by many as fair minded, whether the police would retain
21 the power to control the march or whether the march
22 would be controlled by the Army imposing its will on the
23 marchers."
24 You then make the observation:
25 "It is difficult now to say who, ultimately, was
1 actually in charge of policing" on the day.
2 When you discussed the question with Mr Lagan before
3 the day, did you get an answer to the question whether
4 the police or the Army would be controlling the march?
5 A. I do not think Mr Lagan knew himself.
6 Q. If we go back to paragraph 14, you describe in the
7 middle of it how you were slightly concerned that the
8 stewarding of the march had not been properly organised.
9 You point out that it takes a large number of
10 well-trained, well-briefed stewards to control a big
11 march and that in the past the stewarding had been to
12 a very high standard.
13 You are not the only person to have expressed,
14 before and after the march, concern about the
15 stewarding. What exactly were the arrangements for
16 stewarding this march, so far as you were aware of them?
17 A. I was not terribly aware of any proper meetings that had
18 been held where a large force of stewards was mobilised.
19 In 1968 we had a very effective stewarding machine in
20 this city and that was built up over a period of weeks
21 and stewards were trained on how to handle difficult
22 situations.
23 I was not aware that the same level of concern had
24 gone into providing the stewards for this march.
25 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 17 to the end on this
1 page. We come now to the day of the march itself. You
2 describe how on the morning you set off from your home,
3 which was then in Crawford Square; heard of the strong
4 military presence in the city; constant flow of people
5 talking to you; left home at around the time when Mass
6 was taken; walked south along Francis Street towards
7 St Eugene's; saw soldiers in the side streets to the
8 north of William Street.
9 Then you describe in paragraph 18 seeing Paras in
10 the vicinity of St Eugene's who were calling to people
11 on the way to Mass, saying words to the effect that they
12 would deal with them that afternoon, looking forward to
13 seeing them later, et cetera.
14 How confident are you that those people whom you saw
15 in the morning in the vicinity of the cathedral were in
16 fact paratroopers?
17 A. I am fairly confident.
18 Q. Can I tell you why I ask? The material the Tribunal has
19 suggests that the Paras may not have been deployed in
20 this area until the afternoon. What was it that caused
21 you to think that these were paratroopers?
22 A. I saw soldiers with red berets and the distinctive
23 Paratroop cap badge.
24 Q. May we come over the page, please, to paragraphs 23 and
25 following. You describe taking a number of telephone
1 calls when you got back to your home and then setting
2 off on foot to Bishop's Field, seeing Tommy McGlinchey's
3 coal lorry. You describe in the succeeding paragraphs
4 speaking to a number of people, including
5 William McKinney and Jim Wray and his father and signing
6 autographs as the crowd assembled.
7 If we come over the page, can we have paragraph 29.
8 You refer to McGlinchey's lorry leading the march as it
9 set off for the field. You say that you and the civil
10 rights leaders leading the march knew that there was
11 never any prospect that the march would be able to
12 proceed through to the Guildhall.
13 When you set off behind McGlinchey's lorry from
14 Bishop's Field, did you then know what route the march
15 was going to take?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What route did you understand that it was going to take?
18 A. I was aware that the march would not be permitted to go
19 through to the Guildhall and we had taken a decision to
20 wheel the march to the right in William Street, to the
21 right across Rossville Street and to hold the meeting at
22 Free Derry Corner.
23 Q. Who is "we"; when you say "we had taken a decision"?
24 A. The NICRA, Kevin McCorry, Brigid Bond, those that were
25 involved in the organisation of the march.
1 Q. When was that decision taken?
2 A. I had been made aware the previous day by Chief
3 Superintendent Lagan that there was no prospect of the
4 march being permitted to go through to the Guildhall.
5 I had conveyed that to several people on the previous
6 day. So, really it was a formality; there was an
7 understanding from the march set off that there was no
8 prospect of us getting through and we had to create
9 a diversion, and the diversion was the meeting at Free
10 Derry Corner.
11 Q. May we come, please, to paragraph 30. You record there
12 how you were to be one of the speakers and the others
13 were Lord Brockway and Bernadette Devlin, because the
14 Reverend Terence McCaughey had cancelled. We know that
15 you went on the march and, indeed, Bernadette Devlin as
16 well.
17 Do you know what arrangements were made for
18 Lord Brockway to get to the place where he was to speak?
19 A. I do not recollect.
20 Q. Can we have, please, paragraph 31 to 34. You describe
21 in paragraph 31 the march proceeding down Southway; you
22 walked on your own a few rows behind the lorry, which
23 occasionally gained speed and you recall thinking that
24 it was being driven too fast and people near the front
25 of the march, mainly young, were able to walk freely.
1 You think that Paddy O'Hanlon was with you and you
2 describe, in paragraph 34, how the tactic of creating
3 a diversion for the march by having a meeting away from
4 the Guildhall had quickly to be put into effect by the
5 time you got to the junction with Rossville Street to
6 prevent people from approaching the barrier in
7 William Street.
8 You describe how there were stewards ahead of you,
9 further east along William Street trying to wheel people
10 away from William Street, south along Rossville Street.
11 You say you felt there should have been more stewards
12 controlling the march.
13 I would like your help as to what exactly happened
14 when the lorry got to the junction with
15 Rossville Street, and I would like to show you in that
16 connection some photographs that were taken on the day.
17 Could we have on the screen P350. This shows the
18 junction between Rossville Street and William Street.
19 We can see in this photograph the march approaching the
20 junction and at the junction itself there is
21 a scattering of people?
22 A. I cannot see the march approaching the junction.
23 Q. The march is up there; do you follow? (Indicating)
24 A. Okay, yes.
25 Q. It becomes clearer in the next photograph in the
1 sequence, which is 351, because by this stage one can
2 just see what is, I think, the lorry towards the head of
3 the march and if we have 352, which is the next in the
4 sequence, we can see a little more clearly the lorry --
5 there is its windscreen -- and we can see the civil
6 rights banner; do you follow?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. It looks from that photograph -- at any rate just from
9 the images that one can see on it -- that by the time
10 you get -- the head of the march gets to the junction
11 with Rossville Street there do not seem to be anybody
12 recognisable as stewards around at all; was that the
13 position?
14 A. No, it certainly was not the position, because if you go
15 back to the previous photograph.
16 Q. 351, please.
17 A. Yes. At that stage the march was starting to be held
18 back and at the front of the march were stewards. So in
19 addition to stewards on the ground, there were also
20 stewards who were in the march and who had made their
21 way to the front at that stage.
22 Having said that, the number of stewards, in my
23 view, for the task ahead of us was inadequate.
24 Q. I quite follow what you say about stewards coming to the
25 front of the march as it comes close to
1 Rossville Street, but am I right in thinking -- tell me
2 if I am not -- that there were not any stewards who were
3 at the junction in advance, that is to say before the
4 lorry got to the junction?
5 A. Yes, there were.
6 Q. There were?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know how many there were?
9 A. I do not, no, but there were stewards.
10 Q. One problem that one sees immediately just simply by
11 looking at the land in this photograph, that once you
12 got to the junction there is a large waste area so that
13 if you had, even if you had a fairly large line of
14 stewards at the junction, it would not be that difficult
15 to get round them if you wanted to; is that a fair
16 comment?
17 A. That is a fair comment, yes.
18 Q. May we come --
19 MR TOOHEY: Mr Cooper to your right, please. When you speak
20 of a diversion that would take the march down to Free
21 Derry Corner, are you speaking of something that was
22 decided upon by the organisers and in conjunction with
23 the stewards or something that was known to the marchers
24 generally?
25 A. It was not known to the marchers generally, it was known
1 to the stewards. You would not normally communicate
2 that to the bulk of the crowd; you would not normally do
3 that. It is a tactic that had been used on a number of
4 previous occasions where there was a risk of
5 confrontation, you created a diversion by having
6 a meeting in another spot and that was the case here.
7 But the bulk of the crowd would not have been told until
8 we were well down the way.
9 MR TOOHEY: Was that on the footing that the marchers would
10 simply follow the lorry or on some other footing?
11 A. Yes, and the overwhelming majority of people did follow
12 the lorry.
13 MR CLARKE: May we come then, please, to KC12.19,
14 paragraph 35. You describe how the lorry which was
15 ahead of you, very close to the front, turned south and
16 headed for Free Derry Corner. You followed it, but
17 walked only a short distance south along
18 Rossville Street.
19 When the lorry got to the junction, the corner
20 between William Street and Rossville Street, were you
21 close behind it at that stage?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You say you walked only a short distance south along
24 Rossville Street before becoming conscious that a number
25 of young men had detached themselves and were hell bent
1 on having an afternoon's fun and entertainment by
2 throwing stones at the Army at the barrier at the
3 eastern end of William Street.
4 If we go to paragraph 36 on the next page, you
5 describe how you decided to move back into
6 William Street to help the stewards who were desperately
7 urging people to head for the meeting which was to take
8 place at Free Derry Corner and you ended up around the
9 junction of William Street and Chamberlain Street.
10 Could we have on the screen photograph P353. This
11 is a photograph that was taken on the day. We can see,
12 just, that the lorry by this stage -- the rear of the
13 lorry is here with the civil rights banner and the cab
14 is I think somewhere over here. The lorry has by now
15 turned south down Rossville Street and we can see, in
16 the foreground of the photograph, that there were
17 a number of youths who have peeled off down
18 William Street.
19 As I understand it, at this stage you would have
20 been pretty close behind the lorry, about there; is that
21 right? (Indicating)
22 A. Yes. There were two types of people who did not follow
23 the lorry. First of all, there were young men who
24 wanted to have a go and throw stones, but, secondly,
25 there were people who, out of curiosity had heard that
1 the Paras were in William Street, which of course they
2 were not at that stage, and they wanted to have a look
3 at them.
4 So, for example, the man with the cap in the front,
5 I would put into that type of category and a number of
6 other people who were making their way down would have
7 been in the same category.
8 Q. May we come, please, to KC12.20, paragraphs 37 to the
9 end. You describe how you could see young fellas
10 grabbing stones from the wasteground around
11 William Street and throwing them at soldiers behind the
12 barrier. You yourself went right down next to the
13 barrier to take a close look at what was happening, and
14 you say that there were soldiers who looked to you hyped
15 up:
16 "... there was a drunken pest [who insisted that
17 you] should take the march through the barrier [and]
18 'liberate the Guildhall'."
19 You describe in paragraph 38 how you strongly
20 disapproved of the confrontation and quickly retreated
21 and ran west up William Street, which was full of
22 people, on your way to Free Derry Corner and, as you
23 left the riot scene, you could hear rubber bullets being
24 fired and were conscious of CS gas flying around behind
25 you. You say:
1 "I also saw a water cannon brought up to the barrier
2 as I was leaving the scene."
3 Were you ever present when the water cannon was
4 actually used?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Then you describe, in paragraph 39, how older people
7 standing on William Street were criticising the young
8 for rioting. You passed the junction with
9 Rossville Street where there were still stewards
10 attempting to control the crowd, but now even more
11 depleted in number and there were people running with
12 you as you made your way towards Free Derry Corner.
13 Did you make your way to Free Derry Corner along
14 Rossville Street past the block of the Rossville Flats
15 that runs parallel to Rossville Street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the time when you did that, was Rossville Street
18 itself still full of people or was it thinning out, or
19 do you not recall?
20 A. I do recall, because my concern at that stage was to get
21 the meeting started and that would have meant that
22 people who were still hanging around the mouth of
23 Rossville Street would make their way over to hear the
24 speeches. Our difficulty was the meeting had not
25 started and that -- I felt that if the meeting was
1 started that more people would gather round the
2 platform. But there were quite a few people standing
3 around Rossville Street.
4 Q. You describe in paragraph 40 how, when you reached Free
5 Derry Corner, there was a large crowd gathered round the
6 lorry in a wide arc. At the top of the next page you
7 describe being helped up on to the platform,
8 Lord Brockway was already there. You say that as you
9 stood on the platform you saw two or three APCs
10 positioned at the junction of William Street and
11 Rossville Street facing south and they were not moving.
12 You then describe how, when you were in the process
13 of speaking, you heard a number of distinctive cracks.
14 How confident are you that as you stood on the
15 platform before you had started to speak you saw two or
16 three stationary APCs at the junction of William Street
17 and Rossville Street?
18 A. I am confident.
19 Q. I want to show you a photograph which was taken on the
20 day. Can we have a look at EP23.5. The reason that
21 I ask, is this: we know from a large amount of evidence
22 that Support Company of the Paras came through the
23 barrier in Little James Street and crossed the junction
24 between Little James Street and William Street and that
25 the two leading Pigs, APCs, turned off to their left,
1 that is to say to the east towards the back of the
2 Chamberlain Street houses and one Pig ended up facing
3 the back of the Chamberlain Street houses, to the north
4 of the wasteground and one came into the mouth of the
5 car park and the remainder of them drove in and
6 initially came to a halt.
7 This photograph, which is heavily foreshortened,
8 shows the position when they came to a halt. So that
9 one can get one's bearings: William Street is there;
10 Little James Street is there and Sackville Street is off
11 there. (Indicating) The vehicles all look bunched
12 together, but they are in fact further apart than the
13 photograph appears to show, but there came a stage when
14 there was a command vehicle stationary --
15 A. Which street they are on now?
16 Q. This is Rossville Street; do you follow? There was
17 a command vehicle I am pointing out in red. There was
18 a little scout car to the left. There were probably two
19 Pigs behind, though one can only with ease see one.
20 Then there were two lorries and then there were two
21 further figures coming up the rear with the
22 northern-most Pig, this one that I am pointing out in
23 blue, practically at the junction between
24 Rossville Street and William Street.
25 Putting it shortly, we know that initially all these
1 vehicles drove down; two bore off to the right of this
2 photograph as you look at it and the convoy stopped in
3 the position that we see in the photograph.
4 Do you remember ever seeing either a convoy like
5 this or possibly simply the leading two vehicles of the
6 convoy stationary in Rossville Street?
7 A. (Pause). At the mouth of Rossville Street?
8 Q. No, not in fact. Could we have EP23.5 on the left-hand
9 side and could we have the map, KC12.64 on the
10 right-hand side. Could we highlight the middle section
11 of the map. What happened is this: vehicles came down
12 Rossville Street. One turned off and, in the end, ended
13 up facing approximately in the direction that I have put
14 with the blue arrow. One came to the mouth of the car
15 park and ended up in approximately the position of the
16 green arrow and the other vehicles were in line from the
17 junction with William Street down to approximately
18 there, where my yellow arrow now is on the screen; do
19 you follow?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So that the vehicles we can see in the photograph on the
22 left were on the ground, broadly speaking in the line
23 described by my yellow arrow from William Street down to
24 a position mid-way with Kells Walk.
25 Do you recollect seeing either the first two or
1 a whole convoy of vehicles stationary in that position?
2 A. I do not recollect seeing the convoy.
3 Q. You were, of course, quite some way away?
4 A. I was at --
5 Q. Down at Free Derry Corner?
6 A. -- Free Derry Corner.
7 Q. Is it possible that what you saw is the first two
8 vehicles of the convoy?
9 A. It is possible. You have to remember I was on the
10 platform which was elevated and, therefore, I could see
11 further than I would do if I was on the ground.
12 Q. May we come back, please, to KC12.21, paragraphs 42 and
13 43. You say that you believe that you were in the
14 process of speaking with Bernadette Devlin to your right
15 and Lord Brockway further to your right when you heard
16 a number of distinctive cracks. Your immediate reaction
17 was that rubber bullets were being fired towards FDC and
18 you think someone to your left said that rubber bullets
19 were being fired and you did not think at this stage
20 that these were lead bullets.
21 A small point, nothing much turns on it, but you say
22 that you believe that you were in the process of
23 speaking. The Tribunal has heard evidence from
24 Bernadette Devlin and others that shooting began to be
25 perceived by those who were at the lorry when she was
1 beginning to speak; is that possible?
2 A. It is possible. I have apologised for the
3 non-attendance of the Reverend Terence McCaughey and
4 Bernadette Devlin was the next speaker.
5 Q. I see, in a sense you may both be right?
6 A. So my contribution was very, very brief at that stage.
7 Q. She said that the firing came very soon after she began
8 to speak, so there is not much difference there.
9 You say in paragraph 43 that you became conscious of
10 something "skipping" along the ground, like stones
11 skipping across water, in an area approximately between
12 points C and D, and you say there were at least ten
13 separate instances, no noise created by the actual
14 skipping, and Bernadette said to you "that is lead,
15 'Coops'".
16 Could we have a look back at the map at KC12.64.
17 You have referred to points C and D as the area between
18 which you perceived this skipping to take place. Did
19 you actually see anything which appeared to be the
20 strike of something on the ground, or not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You did?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You then describe, if we can go back to paragraph 43 at
25 KC12.21, how it dawned on you that the skipping was
1 being caused by live gunfire and that lead was buzzing
2 around you.
3 You were familiar, were you, with the sound of live
4 gunfire?
5 A. I have heard -- I had heard live gunfire prior to that.
6 Q. Is it possible that you were right and that what in fact
7 was happening was the sound of rubber bullets?
8 A. In what -- what context are you asking me?
9 Q. What you are describing in paragraph 43 is being
10 conscious of skipping?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. In the area that you have indicated?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Bernadette Devlin then says "that is lead"; you then
15 say:
16 "It then dawned on me that the skipping was being
17 caused by live gunfire and that lead was buzzing around
18 me."
19 What I was raising with you was whether it was
20 possible that it was not in fact lead, even though
21 Bernadette said that it was, and that what in fact you
22 may have heard was the sound of rubber bullets?
23 A. There were a lot of people around there at that
24 particular time. If you were familiar with civil rights
25 marches in those days, once rubber bullets were fired,
1 there was a scramble to collect them. In other words,
2 with a large number of people that were there, they
3 undoubtedly would have been retrieving the rubber
4 bullets and that was not the case.
5 Q. You then describe how the people facing the platform
6 were scattering and scurrying around?
7 A. It was absolute panic.
8 Q. They moved towards Lisfannon Park and the Old Bog Road
9 and you had, with some difficulty, understandably, to
10 get Lord Brockway off the coal lorry.
11 May we come, please, to paragraphs 44 and 45. You
12 describe being pinned to the ground in front of the
13 platform where there was now a large open space in front
14 of you as people had moved away and you became more
15 conscious of bullets -- maybe 20 to 25 -- flying around.
16 You say that some bullets seemed to be hitting something
17 above you. Do you know what it was that they appeared
18 to be hitting?
19 A. I do not know.
20 Q. May it have been the wall behind the --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- the lorry?
23 A. Yes, that is possible.
24 Q. You say:
25 "They appeared to me to be flying from straight in
1 front of me (north to the south)."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that you were convinced at the time that the shots
4 were being fired from the city wall, but you are not
5 clear why you reached that conclusion. Could we have
6 back on the screen KC12.64. If they were coming from
7 north to south, how is it that you took the view that
8 they were coming from the city wall which, if anything,
9 is to the east?
10 A. It was an impression I had. I have, I have said in my
11 statement that I, I do not know how I reached that
12 conclusion, but that was the feeling that I had; that
13 there was gunfire from both in front of me and also from
14 the city walls.
15 Q. You thought it was from both directions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We know that when the two APCs that I have been speaking
18 about stopped, the one facing towards the back of the
19 Chamberlain Street houses and the one facing into the
20 car park, a number of soldiers got out of them and that
21 both rubber bullets and then live bullets were fired,
22 including a number of bullets -- a sizeable number of
23 bullets fired within the car park of the
24 Rossville Flats, either in that direction or that
25 direction or the like.
1 Is it possible that what you heard from Free Derry
2 Corner was in fact the firing of live bullets within the
3 car park of the Rossville Flats?
4 A. Yes, that is a possibility.
5 Q. May we come, please, to paragraph 45 at KC12.21. You
6 describe feeling very exposed on the ground in front of
7 the platform and many people were calling and shouting
8 to you from the southern side of the flats. So you
9 began crawling towards the telephone box at the south
10 end of Block 1, looking north along Rossville Street.
11 Could we have back on the screen KC12.64. That
12 means that you were crawling from here broadly speaking
13 in that direction; is that right? (Indicating)
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know why it was that you crawled in that
16 direction rather than, for instance, taking cover behind
17 Joseph Place to the east or in Lisfannon Park to the
18 west?
19 A. Because people were calling to me from near the
20 telephone box. In addition, I very stupidly had not
21 appreciated the real danger that existed at that time.
22 Q. Can we come, please, to paragraphs 46 and 47 on KC12.22.
23 You describe there how you could see three or four APCs,
24 all moving south along Rossville Street and about 12
25 soldiers at the north end of Rossville Street near
1 Kells Walk and two or three of them in the open to the
2 east of Kells Walk, were on one knee, appearing to be
3 taking aim and firing at selected targets and you could
4 see jerks of their rifles as they fired shots. Did you
5 see any flashes?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You say that those two or three soldiers were ahead of
8 the rest of the soldiers, seemed to fire shots to their
9 left and to their right, moving their rifles around in
10 a covering arc and circulating their body and you think
11 that they then stood up, moved forward and fired from
12 the waist and began to move stealthily -- the soldiers
13 behind them then moved along Rossville Street and tock
14 up positions near Kells Walk and stood with their rifle
15 to the shoulder and seemed to you to be shooting from
16 the shoulder towards the rubble barricade.
17 I would like you to help us, if you can, about where
18 you think that you saw these two sets of soldiers.
19 Could we have on the screen photograph P204. This is
20 a photograph which shows the position of
21 Rossville Street from Free Derry Corner at the bottom to
22 the north of the Rossville Street Flats. Can we have
23 that on the left-hand side of the screen and can we have
24 on the right-hand side of the screen P209. This is
25 a photograph taken from the opposite angle.
1 Would you find one or other of those photographs
2 more easy to deal with than the other?
3 A. I think probably this one to my right --
4 Q. The one on the right?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. Could we have P209, please, full screen. Would you be
7 able to indicate on this photograph where you saw two or
8 three soldiers to the east of Kells Walk on one knee
9 apparently picking people off?
10 A. I am sorry, Mr Clarke, when you say "to the east," those
11 terms do not help me.
12 Q. I am sorry, the east is this side, the right-hand side
13 of the photograph?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In paragraph 46 of your statement you talk about seeing
16 two or three soldiers on one knee to the east of
17 Kells Walk. No doubt the person who took the statement
18 used "east" to mean on the right-hand side of this
19 photograph as we look at it?
20 A. Where, where the arrow is is not the place where I would
21 have seen them.
22 Q. No, that was simply to indicate which side of the
23 photograph is east?
24 A. I am sorry. Right.
25 Q. I wonder whether you would be able to indicate on this
1 photograph, by marking it, if we give you control of the
2 photograph, where it was that you saw the soldiers on
3 one knee close to Kells Walk?
4 A. Where is Kells Walk, here?
5 Q. That building is Kells Walk.
6 A. In this vicinity here, not to the east. (Marked with
7 yellow arrow - KC12.122)
8 Q. Where the tip of your yellow arrow; is that right?
9 A. Yes, well, perhaps just marginally further back.
10 Q. When you say, "marginally further back," back in which
11 direction?
12 A. In the direction of William Street.
13 Q. Could somebody take off the blue arrow, please. I think
14 we can leave the yellow arrow, but with the caveat that
15 it may have been slightly further towards
16 William Street.
17 The place that you have indicated is, as we can see,
18 out in the open?
19 A. They were not taking cover. When the soldiers first
20 came in -- when the Paras first came in, they were not
21 taking cover.
22 Q. You describe how the soldiers whom you first saw on one
23 knee then moved forward south along Rossville Street and
24 the soldiers behind them moved south and took up
25 positions near Kells Walk.
1 Do you recollect where the soldiers who had been
2 firing on one knee moved to?
3 A. They went out of my vision, so I am not quite sure where
4 they would have gone, whether it was behind Kells Walk
5 or where they went to, but they went out of my vision.
6 Q. What about the soldiers who had been behind them who
7 moved and stood with their rifle up to their shoulders;
8 do you recall where they went to?
9 A. Well, they -- some of them were, some of them were --
10 moved towards the area where the rubber -- where the
11 rubble barrier was; they were moving down in that
12 direction, but they were out in the open.
13 Q. Are you able to be any more precise as to where you saw
14 those soldiers who fired from the shoulder take up
15 a position?
16 A. No, they -- the soldiers who fired from, from where?
17 What are you asking me?
18 Q. The soldiers who fired from the shoulder?
19 A. I think they took up position on both sides.
20 Q. On both sides of?
21 A. Rossville Street.
22 Q. In the open?
23 A. Some of them took -- some of them went in behind these
24 walls that are round Kells Walk and further on down
25 Glenfada Park.
1 Q. I want to show you some photographs that were taken on
2 the day to see if they bring back any recollection of
3 what you saw. Can we have on the screen EP23.6. This
4 is a photograph that was taken from the side of
5 Rossville Street, the side that was on the right-hand
6 side of the photograph that we were looking at a moment
7 ago. This is the Kells Walk building?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. There is a little wall to the south of it and there is
10 the pram ramp that leads up to it. It is just possible
11 to see in this photograph a soldier running. This is
12 one of a series of photographs.
13 Can we have a look at EP23.7. A little later,
14 a soldier has taken a position at the corner of the pram
15 ramp and one in the corner constituted by the pram ramp
16 and the wall to the south of Kells Walk.
17 EP23.8. By this time a number of other soldiers
18 have come forward into the corner and other soldiers are
19 coming down parallel to Kells Walk.
20 EP23.9. In the next photograph, the soldiers who
21 came into the corner have left it and are going round
22 and some of them are taking up positions at this wall
23 and behind them there are more soldiers who appear to be
24 coming down and some are at the top of the street.
25 Do those photographs bring back any recollection of
1 what you may have seen on the day?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That rings a bell, does it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could we have on the screen EP27.6. This is another
6 photograph that was taken on the day. This is the
7 rubble barricade; this is Block 1 of the
8 Rossville Flats; this is the gable end of Glenfada Park
9 and at the time when this photograph was taken, the Army
10 vehicles that we saw in an earlier photograph, including
11 the command vehicle with the Perspex top and the scout
12 car, are further to the north of the photograph and
13 there is a large expanse of street in which there is
14 nothing between the leading vehicle and the barricade
15 and behind the barricade in this photograph there are 30
16 or 40 people and there were no doubt more towards the
17 Rossville flats.
18 Do you recollect seeing a scene like this, that is
19 to say the barricade with, behind it, 40 or more people
20 standing around?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You do? You saw that from the platform? Did you see
23 what happened to those people?
24 A. No. I am, I am not sure I saw that scene from the
25 platform because I believe that I was off the platform
1 at that stage.
2 Q. Do you think you saw it when you were --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- on the ground and crawling?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. May we come then, please, to paragraphs 47 to the end on
7 KC12.22. You say in paragraph 47 that you did not see
8 any person shot, nor did you see anyone fall, but when
9 you took a second look north along Rossville Street:
10 "... there were people around the barricade who
11 appeared to me to be injured."
12 When you saw people who appeared to you to be
13 injured, were they standing or fallen or --
14 A. Fallen.
15 Q. What caused you to think that they were injured?
16 A. There were some people around them and, also, it
17 appeared that people were carrying others away.
18 Q. At this stage you saw some people still standing, did
19 you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You describe in paragraph 8 how firing was heavy as you
22 continued to crawl from the lorry towards the telephone
23 box and bullets were spitting around you. When you say
24 that, do you mean that you perceived the strike of
25 bullets near you or simply that you heard the sound of
1 bullets?
2 A. I perceived the strike.
3 Q. You say you felt the soldiers were taking aim at you as
4 you were crawling. Was there anybody near you when you
5 were crawling?
6 A. Yes, there were three or four others.
7 Q. You say that soldiers standing on the west side of
8 Rossville Street in the approximate area of grid
9 reference K13 appeared to be firing shots in the
10 direction of the barricade and in your general
11 direction.
12 Could we have back on the screen the photograph that
13 we saved a little earlier. It was going to have been
14 KC12.122, but it will not have that number yet. That
15 does not seem to have the --
16 MR HOYT: I do not think it was saved.
17 MR CLARKE: That is not the saved version; have we lost the
18 saved version?
19 LORD SAVILLE: I am not sure we actually ever saved it,
20 Mr Clarke.
21 MR CLARKE: Did we not? Let me mark it again, then. That,
22 I think, was where you marked as the approximate
23 position where you had seen the soldiers on one knee; is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can we save that as KC12.122. Can you tell us where it
2 was that you saw soldiers who appeared to be firing in
3 your direction and at the barricade when you crawled
4 from Free Derry Corner towards Block 1 of the
5 Rossville Flats?
6 A. Further down.
7 Q. Do you know whereabouts?
8 A. Further down Rossville Street.
9 Q. Was that in line with Glenfada Park or the pram ramps
10 between Glenfada Park and Kells Walk or, where?
11 A. The pram ramps.
12 Q. Would you be able to indicate on this, in a colour other
13 than yellow, where approximately those soldiers were?
14 A. I cannot from this map. I saw soldiers on the pram
15 ramps.
16 Q. When you say, as you do in paragraph 48 of your
17 statement, that soldiers standing on the west side of
18 Rossville Street, south of Kells Walk appeared to you to
19 be firing shots in the direction of the rubble barricade
20 and in your general direction --
21 A. The west is the part of Rossville Street which is
22 adjacent to Kells Walk; is that not the case?
23 Q. It is, yes. What I was asking is whether by reference
24 to what will become KC12.122, you were able to indicate
25 where you thought those soldiers were, who you thought
1 were taking aim at you?
2 A. Can we go back at the --
3 Q. Yes, please, can we have the ...?
4 A. I thought they were more here, this area. Somewhere in
5 that area. (Marked with blue arrow - KC12.122)
6 Q. Can we preserve KC12.122 in that form, with the blue
7 arrow showing the area in question.
8 May we come then back, please, to KC12.22,
9 paragraphs 48 to the end. You describe how, as you
10 crawled, you could see the telephone box at the south
11 end of Block 1; that you had to stop several times; that
12 when you thought it was safe you half ran in a crouched
13 position and the shooting continued and you had several
14 glances at the rubble barricade. You describe noticing
15 there was a person lying on the ground to the south of
16 the barricade, on the western side, close to the
17 barricade who appeared to be injured.
18 When you say "on the western side," you mean, do
19 you, towards the Glenfada Park North side of the
20 barricade?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There were about five people standing around the person
23 lying on the ground?
24 A. Well, they seemed to be attending to him.
25 Q. So you see this group of people at the barricade. Are
1 you conscious of seeing any other people at the
2 barricade, apart from the person who was lying on the
3 ground --
4 A. There were others.
5 Q. Were they standing or lying?
6 A. They were lying.
7 Q. Over the page, if we may, down to paragraph 54. You say
8 you saw one or two people run from the east of
9 Rossville Street to the west and into
10 Glenfada Park North and as you reached the point that
11 you have marked at E to the west of Joseph Place you
12 heard a shout, looked up and saw Barney McGuigan facing
13 you, standing at the south of Block 1, near the
14 telephone box, in a half crouched position. You say
15 that you think he shouted to you something like "they
16 have fucking shot the man"; is that the shout which
17 caused you to look up?
18 A. I do not recollect.
19 Q. You say that you continued to lie down to the ground and
20 crawl. You describe in paragraph 54 how Barney McGuigan
21 was in a state of panic, clearly concerned for the
22 person who he knew had been shot. May we come then to
23 paragraphs 55 and 56. You say that as you continued to
24 crawl, he started to move in a standing but crouched
25 position, not like Father Daly in the well-known
1 photograph, but waving more like a half-hearted wave and
2 started to walk west across your line of vision, about
3 30 feet away from you, with a cloth in his hand, which
4 he was waving in a half-hearted manner, which did not
5 seem to have any positive meaning, in the general
6 direction of the north end of Rossville Street.
7 You say he had only taken a few steps and as he came
8 out into the open, you think you heard the same cracking
9 noise as you had heard earlier and he just folded up,
10 crumpled. He fell down on his side, falling towards the
11 wall at the south end of Block 1.
12 When you saw that happen, were you conscious or able
13 to tell where the shot that caused him to fold up had
14 come from?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you conscious of seeing any soldiers at this stage
17 in or around Rossville Street, Glenfada or Kells Walk?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Were you able to connect any of those soldiers whom you
20 saw with the shooting of Barney McGuigan?
21 A. No. Can I just make a small point, it is a very small
22 point: looking at my statement where I say he was about
23 30 feet away, I think that is, is incorrect, I think it
24 would be more likely to be 50, 60 feet away.
25 Q. May we have a photograph only for the witness and the
1 lawyers on the screen now, photograph P728. This is
2 a photograph that was taken on the day. It shows
3 Barney McGuigan fallen and lying in a pool of blood. Is
4 that how you saw him after he had fallen?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We can see in this photograph that there is a boy, whom
7 we know to have been Hugh Gilmore, lying just at the
8 corner of Block 1 of the Rossville Flats. Were you
9 conscious of seeing him on the day?
10 A. That is the surprising thing; I was not.
11 Q. We can also see at the time when this photograph was
12 taken, a series of people huddled in the lee of the
13 telephone box. Were you conscious of a number of people
14 against the gable wall of Block 1?
15 A. A very large number of people. That, that is only
16 a small snippet of the number of people.
17 Q. We can also see in this photograph -- could we lighten
18 it up a little -- if you look very closely, that there
19 is an Army vehicle whose nose is approximately level
20 with the gable end of Glenfada Park and which we know is
21 a vehicle that came forward to pick up the bodies of
22 three of those who died at the barricade.
23 Do you remember seeing or being conscious of the
24 presence of an Army vehicle?
25 A. No.
1 Q. In that area?
2 A. No.
3 Q. May we come, please, to paragraph 57 at KC12.23. You
4 told us a moment ago that at the time when you saw
5 Barney being shot you were probably something like
6 50 yards [sic] away. After you had seen him shot, did
7 you continue crawling towards the south of Block 1 or
8 did you get up and run or did you stop; what did you do?
9 A. I went to beside Barney McGuigan.
10 Q. Did you crawl towards him or did you --
11 A. I think I ran towards him.
12 Q. And this was immediately after he had been shot; is that
13 right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You describe hearing a woman screaming in a high-pitched
16 tone, the melee. You said here:
17 "I continued to crawl towards his body," but you
18 think you may have run towards the end; is that right?
19 A. I think I ran towards the end, yes.
20 Q. And you knew that he had been fatally wounded. Can we
21 come over the page, please, to KC12.24, down to
22 paragraph 60. You say that something was put over his
23 body by a middle-aged woman which covered a part of his
24 head but left part still visible. You say:
25 "I do not know where the cloth went" which you
1 believe Barney had in his hand. Do you know what it was
2 that the middle-aged woman put on over part of his head?
3 A. No.
4 Q. I want to show you another photograph. Could we have on
5 the screen P731. We know that at some stage -- and this
6 photograph shows -- a scarf, you can just see it in the
7 photograph, was put over Barney's head and later we can
8 see this man putting a blanket over him.
9 Do you remember seeing a scarf put over him?
10 A. I do not know what it was that was on his head. I do
11 not recollect that it was a scarf.
12 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, it is just a small point perhaps, you
13 referred, I think to 50 yards. I think in each case the
14 reference was initially to 30 feet and then perhaps more
15 likely to be, Mr Cooper said, 50 or 60 feet.
16 MR CLARKE: I am sorry. That is right, is it, we are
17 talking in --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. May we come back to KC12.24, down
20 to paragraph 62. You say in paragraph 60 that as you
21 stood near Barney's body you became aware of something
22 going on on the other side, that is to say the west
23 side, of Rossville Street and conscious of activity in
24 Glenfada Park North. You say that people were being
25 carried from the area around the rubble barricade into
1 Glenfada Park, either one man or two men were being
2 carried by other men from the rubble barricade into
3 Glenfada Park North.
4 How sure are you of the sequence of events, that is
5 to say that you saw one or two men being removed from
6 the rubble barricade after you had seen Barney McGuigan
7 shot?
8 A. I am not sure of the chronology.
9 Q. When you say in paragraph 60 that you became conscious
10 of activity in Glenfada Park North, is that simply that
11 you became aware that somebody was being carried into
12 Glenfada Park North or was there some other sort of
13 activity of which you became conscious?
14 A. I became conscious of someone being carried in.
15 Q. Could you tell what was happening in Glenfada Park?
16 A. Panic. People were hysterical. I have never
17 encountered fear like it in my life, total, complete
18 panic. People were in shock. A large number of people
19 were so seriously in shock that when they spoke to you,
20 they clung to you.
21 Q. At this stage you were on the other side of
22 Rossville Street, were you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Near Barney's body?
25 A. Yes, but I am talking about when I went into
1 Glenfada Park.
2 Q. You describe in paragraph 61 looking again towards the
3 north of Rossville Street and seeing two soldiers on the
4 pram-way by Kells Walk on the first tier, with a rifle
5 pointed towards the rubble barricade. You did not ever
6 see, did you, either of those soldiers fire?
7 A. No.
8 Q. May we come --
9 A. They were there for quite a while.
10 Q. But just having their rifles pointed and not doing
11 anything else?
12 A. I did not see them firing.
13 Q. May we come from paragraph 62 to the end, please. You
14 then describe recalling being at the north of
15 Glenfada Park North and there were people being carried
16 around Glenfada Park North, people on the west side,
17 people were walking around with blood on their clothes
18 and "people crammed like pigs behind the wooden fencing
19 in Glenfada Park".
20 You must obviously have crossed from the south of
21 Block 1 of Rossville Flats to get into Glenfada Park and
22 you have a recollection of being at the north end of
23 Glenfada Park. Do you know what you did; did you just
24 walk across Rossville Street to the south of the rubble
25 barricade into Glenfada Park?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recollect what you saw at the barricade when you
3 crossed?
4 A. No.
5 Q. The Tribunal has had a lot of evidence that at some
6 stage soldiers came into Glenfada Park and rounded up
7 people who had been huddling at the gable end. Do you
8 remember any soldiers coming into Glenfada Park?
9 A. I think that I arrived in Glenfada Park after that had
10 occurred.
11 Q. Could we have on the screen EP23 --
12 A. I am not certain of that, but I think so.
13 Q. Could we have on the screen EP23.10. This is
14 a photograph that was taken on the day, probably earlier
15 than the time that you were in Glenfada Park and quite
16 possibly earlier than the time when you saw -- indeed
17 probably earlier than the time when you saw
18 Barney McGuigan shot.
19 We know that what it in fact shows is a group of
20 people round what we now know to have been the body of
21 Michael Kelly, one of those who was shot at the
22 barricade and who was taken into Glenfada Park. This is
23 a photograph that was taken before any soldiers came in.
24 Do you have any recollection of seeing any scene
25 like that?
1 A. There were a number of scenes like that on the day.
2 That particular one, I do not.
3 Q. Could we have EP23.11. That is another photograph in
4 the same sequence. In EP23.12, there is a photograph
5 which includes in it Father Bradley and Father O'Keefe
6 and some alarmed looking individuals.
7 Do you have any recollection of seeing individuals
8 in this position, that is to say at this gable end?
9 A. I do not have a recollection of seeing that particular
10 sequence, but I do have a recollection of seeing people
11 at that gable end and I, I do not recollect seeing
12 either Father Bradley or Terry O'Keefe on the day.
13 Q. When you saw people at that gable end, was that after
14 you had seen Barney McGuigan shot?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when you went over into Glenfada Park?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. May we then come, please, back to KC12.24, paragraph 63
19 to the end. You say in paragraph 64 that when you were
20 in Glenfada Park you noticed a person lying on the
21 ground at the approximate point that you have marked M
22 who appeared to be fatally injured and who was covered
23 by a coat and you could still hear shooting at the time
24 and people in Glenfada Park were shouting at you and
25 told you that there was a telephone call for you in
1 flat 7.
2 Before we get to the events in that flat, I want to
3 show you two photographs that were taken on the day.
4 Could we have on the screen P680. This is a photograph
5 looking into Glenfada Park. In order to orientate
6 yourself, Rossville Street is off over to the left of
7 this photograph. This photograph is taken from
8 Columbcille Court looking inwards and in a southerly,
9 that is to say towards Free Derry Corner direction. It
10 shows on it three bodies. You can just pick out the
11 legs of a body lying face down, which is that of
12 James Wray and there are two bodies, one on the pavement
13 and one in the gutter, in the middle of the photograph
14 which we know to have been the bodies of
15 William McKinney, who was killed, and Joe Mahon, who was
16 shot in the leg.
17 Do you have any recollection of seeing bodies in
18 approximately the position shown in that photograph?
19 A. This photograph was apparently taken before I arrived on
20 the scene, so when I arrived there were people round
21 bodies in this approximate area, but I did not know --
22 at that stage I did not know if these people had been
23 shot -- had been fatally wounded, I just did not know.
24 Q. Could we go back to KC12.24. You describe in
25 paragraph 64 how before you went to take the telephone
1 call in flat 7, you noticed somebody on the ground at
2 the approximate position marked M. The approximate
3 position marked M is approximately where James Wray's
4 body is shown on the photograph. Then subsequently you
5 go on to say that when you came out of the flat you
6 noticed three people in Glenfada Park North, lying dead
7 or injured.
8 Is it possible that you only saw the three people,
9 including the body at point M, after you had taken the
10 telephone call from flat 7?
11 A. It is possible.
12 Q. It would seem unlikely --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- that you could have missed the other two; would it
15 not?
16 A. There were things happened that day to me which I cannot
17 explain. For example, near where Barney McGuigan had
18 lost his life, I do not have any recollection of other
19 bodies being there.
20 Q. May we come over the page to paragraphs 66 to 68. You
21 describe the telephone conversation in the flat. The
22 person making the call asked "Ivan, have there been
23 people killed?" You said "yes" he said "the deal is
24 off, we are coming in" and you recognised him as one of
25 the four members of the IRA who you had met earlier.
1 Was the person who spoke to you the OC or somebody
2 else?
3 A. Yes. I have not mentioned in my statement, but at one
4 stage I saw Jim Wray sitting on the ground near the
5 rubble barricade.
6 Q. There is a photograph of him doing that.
7 A. Yes, well, I saw, I saw that particular event.
8 Q. Could we have on the screen KC112.118. Can I explain
9 what this is. This is an extract from some manuscript
10 notes made by Dr Neil O'Doherty, who is the author of
11 the book "From Civil Rights to Armalites," of an
12 interview with you. Much of it is not directly relevant
13 to the Inquiry, but there is a passage at the bottom
14 which relates to Bloody Sunday. If we go to KC12.121,
15 with the assistance of Dr O'Doherty, there has been
16 prepared a typed copy of what his notes read. You have,
17 I believe, Mr Cooper, an unredacted, that is to say an
18 unblanked-out copy both of the manuscript and the
19 typescript?
20 A. I saw one ten minutes before I came here.
21 Q. There is only a small passage that I want to ask you
22 about. The notes read:
23 "BS" and then a name has been redacted, which is the
24 name you confirmed of the person described as the OC
25 "made a deal with" -- that is to indicate that the word
1 appears as shorthand "with him to stay in Creggan.
2 After 5 dead called him up. Said the ... deal was off."
3 That is a reference, I assume -- can you confirm --
4 to the telephone conversation that took place in number
5 7 Glenfada Park?
6 A. Yes, but I was not certain at that time how many were
7 dead.
8 Q. But there were plainly some who were dead?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In consequence of that the deal was called off. There
11 is a reference in the original manuscript, which may or
12 may not relate to Bloody Sunday, which reads "some were
13 in it up to the eyeballs"; do you know what that may
14 have been --
15 A. I do not know, but I do not think it referred to
16 Bloody Sunday.
17 Q. There is also in the original manuscript a link to the
18 OC with the words "ousted then." Do you know what that
19 was a reference to?
20 A. I would not have known -- I do not know. I do not know
21 the reasons for that. I do not know when the OC gave up
22 his command.
23 Q. We know from Mr McGuinness that it was pretty soon after
24 Bloody Sunday. Did you understand that he had been
25 ousted?
1 A. No.
2 Q. There are also a series of names and an abbreviation.
3 One abbreviation, "Mcgs", is an abbreviation of
4 McGuinness "in then" and then a series of names are set
5 out which are redacted.
6 Am I right in thinking that those are names of
7 people who were in the Provisionals at the time of
8 Bloody Sunday?
9 A. There is one name that I do not -- I cannot recollect,
10 but the rest, the answer is: yes.
11 Q. There are one, two, three, four names in the original.
12 Can you tell me by the number which is the name that you
13 do not recollect?
14 A. I have not got that on the screen.
15 Q. No, you have not, I asked that the unredacted copy
16 should be made available and was told it had been.
17 A. It was shown to me this morning and then the person who
18 showed it to me took it off to give it to counsel.
19 (Handed)
20 Q. Can you tell me which number is unfamiliar to you?
21 A. The second one.
22 Q. The second one. Thank you. Can I have that document
23 back, please. (Handed)
24 By this stage, you had been told that the deal was
25 off, the deal being that the IRA would stay away. Did
1 you learn what had been done after the deal had been
2 called off?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can we come then, please, back to KC12.25, paragraphs 67
5 to the end. You say that after the telephone
6 conversation you came out of the flat and the shooting
7 seemed to have intensified and as you walked down the
8 ramp from the flat at the northeast end of
9 Glenfada Park North, you could see soldiers around the
10 east of Columbcille Court, poking their heads and
11 pointing their rifles around corners, but the gunfire
12 seemed to be coming from the south end of
13 Glenfada Park North.
14 Could you tell in what direction the shooting
15 appeared to be going at this stage?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. Or what type of gunfire it was?
18 A. It appeared to me to be high velocity.
19 Q. You then describe seeing three people at points M, P and
20 Q, which I think we can take it is likely to have been
21 those in the photograph we saw earlier; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You then head south towards Westland Street. Just
24 before we come to that aspect of the day, could we have
25 on the screen KC12.44. Could we highlight the last
1 paragraph. There is a passage which I do not want to
2 misinterpret but I want to ask you about. You were
3 asked about the significance of Bloody Sunday, and your
4 recorded answer was:
5 "In Derry it has a very great significance. I have
6 never forgotten what happened on Bloody Sunday. Those
7 were unarmed people. For a large, for a considerable
8 length of time I could not sleep at night thinking about
9 how I saw those people shot before my very eyes. How
10 I say young Wray, young lad shot down before my very
11 eyes."
12 Then you go on to another topic. On one reading you
13 might have been saying that you actually saw Wray being
14 shot. On another reading you saw him after he had been
15 shot. I want to be clear: did you see Jim Wray actually
16 being shot?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No. Can we come back to KC12.25, paragraphs 69 to the
19 end. You describe heading south towards Westland
20 Street. You think you walked south along the east side
21 of Glenfada Park North and then across
22 Glenfada Park South from the northeast to southwest and
23 have a vague recollection of two people lying on the
24 ground in Glenfada Park South but you do not know
25 whether these people were dead.
1 Did they appear to be injured in some way or is your
2 recollection so vague that you cannot --
3 A. My recollection is so terribly vague, I just do not
4 know.
5 Q. You say you also think there was a Knight of the Order
6 of Malta attending to a person in Glenfada Park South?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is this a third person in addition to the two people of
9 whom you have a vague recollection?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You then describe running through the front door of
12 John Hume's home. He asks you what was wrong and you
13 told him that there had been murders, deaths and
14 injuries and you ran down the stairs back into the
15 street where there was a car which he told you belonged
16 to Otto Schlindwein with its keys in the ignition and
17 you went off in that car to the hospital?
18 A. John Hume's wife was not at home and she had the only
19 car in the house, so she was not there and, um, that was
20 the only car on the street that had keys in it and we
21 took it.
22 Q. Do you know why it happened to be left there with keys
23 in it?
24 A. I think Derry was a different place in those days, you
25 could leave keys in cars.
1 Q. As you had made your way to John Hume's home, did you
2 ever go to Meenan Square?
3 A. No.
4 Q. May we come then over the page, down to paragraph 73.
5 You describe going to the hospital, silly jibes from the
6 police, seeing Father Tom O'Gara. Then if we can come
7 over the page, KC12.27, at paragraph 80 and following,
8 you describe how somebody told you that a senior had
9 arrived carrying dead bodies. You went to the rear and
10 saw the soldiers taking the dead out of the back of the
11 Saracen and carrying them by their arms and legs and you
12 describe, in this and the subsequent paragraphs, how
13 they were taken into the hospital and put back into the
14 Saracen and taken, you assumed, to the mortuary.
15 I do not want to go into this in any detail not
16 because it is not important, but because your statement
17 is very clear about it.
18 Then if we may come forward to paragraph 88 at
19 KC12.28, after you had been at the hospital you had to
20 return to John Hume's home to give the Taoiseach, as you
21 describe it, a garbled account of the events of the day.
22 If we may come forward to paragraph 91, you say that
23 you have not talked previously about the events of
24 Bloody Sunday and that there remain large blanks in your
25 memory of the events of the day.
1 You made no statement either to NICRA or to
2 Lord Widgery's inquiry; is that right?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Was there a reason for that?
5 A. Yes, there was a reason. I looked at Lord Widgery's CV
6 and I saw on his CV his distinguished academic record
7 and his record as a judge, but then I saw in his CV that
8 he was a former Army officer and I made up my mind there
9 and then that he could not conduct an impartial inquiry.
10 Q. But you did not make a statement?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Leaving aside Lord Widgery's inquiry, you did not make
13 a statement to any civil rights organisation?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can I tell you the reason that I ask. Could we have on
16 the screen L59. This is a contemporary newspaper
17 article and -- it is very difficult to read, I am
18 afraid -- it records or purports to record, we can just
19 pick up your name there, that you had asked for the
20 Derry Central Citizens Defence Committee to open
21 a centre for the taking of statements from eyewitnesses.
22 Is that what you had done?
23 A. No. I am aware that NICRA organised statements,
24 extensive statement-taking, but I was not part of it.
25 Q. It may be that it was John Hume had done that, it is not
1 entirely clear from the passage; do you know whether he
2 had asked for that to be done?
3 A. I very much doubt it.
4 Q. Sorry?
5 A. I very much doubt it, because he shared my concerns
6 about Lord Widgery.
7 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 92 and 93 on KC12.29.
8 You express there the view that the soldiers who were
9 positioned on the city wall "hold the key to the day".
10 You say you do not think it was the plan to shoot
11 people, but that you are strongly of the opinion that
12 soldiers on the wall were firing and that that resulted
13 in confusion between the soldiers on the wall and the
14 Paras on the ground and that the military operation
15 simply went wrong.
16 This opinion that the key lies in the soldiers who
17 were positioned on the wall, how long have you held that
18 view?
19 A. I honestly do not know the answer to that. The -- there
20 are aspects of Bloody Sunday where I revise my opinions
21 in relation to several matters, it is an ongoing
22 process.
23 Q. We know that in 1997 there were some Channel 4 News
24 items which recalled some of the evidence that
25 Lord Widgery had and recounted some new evidence about
1 shooting from the walls and I am wondering whether the
2 strong opinion that you express in paragraph 92 is
3 founded on that material or whether it is founded on
4 anything else?
5 A. It is not founded on that material, it is my own
6 conclusion.
7 Q. Thank you. You say in paragraph 93 that you are certain
8 that there were no IRA gunmen in or around the
9 Rossville Flats?
10 A. I was referring to Provisional IRA gunmen.
11 Q. So, let me be clear, this statement should read:
12 "I am certain that there were no Provisional IRA
13 gunmen in or around the Rossville Flats during the march
14 that day."
15 Should I understand from that answer that you are
16 not certain about the position so far as the Officials
17 are concerned?
18 A. Well, I, I have read press reports and I am aware that,
19 that there were people in the Rossville Street general
20 area who had weapons; there is a well-publicised
21 photograph, but as regards the Provisional IRA, I am
22 satisfied that there were no Provisional IRA gunmen in
23 the Rossville Flats or Rossville Street area.
24 Q. You say:
25 "It was always possible prior to and after
1 Bloody Sunday to see IRA gunmen in the Rossville Flats."
2 You had seen them yourself, had you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you seen them fire from the flats?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But you had seen men with guns?
7 A. On other occasions, yes.
8 Q. What were they doing when you saw them?
9 A. What were they --
10 Q. Doing?
11 A. When I saw the gunmen?
12 Q. Yes?
13 A. Going into the flats with guns.
14 Q. Do you know what sort of guns?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You say:
17 "As far as I am aware there was no gunfire directed
18 from the Rossville Flats on Bloody Sunday."
19 You say:
20 "I was conscious after I had received the telephone
21 call in Mrs McLenaghan's flat that, as I made my way to
22 John Hume's house on Westland Street, there was
23 a different type of shooting which was softer than the
24 shooting which I had heard prior to receiving the
25 call ..."
1 Could you tell what type of weapon that shooting was
2 coming from?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did it appear to you to be different from the shooting
5 that the Army had been engaged in?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can we come, please, to paragraph 95. You say that.
8 "The level of IRA activity in Derry prior to
9 Bloody Sunday had, in any case, not been particularly
10 impressive and the IRA had not gained the support of the
11 general public."
12 Lord Widgery had evidence from Brigadier MacLellan,
13 which he has confirmed to this Tribunal must have come
14 from official figures given to him, that between 14th
15 and 30th January, that is to say the fortnight before
16 Bloody Sunday, there were 80 confirmed shooting
17 incidents; 319 rounds fired at soldiers; 84 nail bombs
18 thrown and two members of the Security Forces killed and
19 two wounded.
20 I reel off those figures to you because, if they are
21 anything like right, it would seem to suggest that there
22 was quite a build-up of incidents in the fortnight
23 immediately preceding Bloody Sunday?
24 A. I have seen these figures before and I am aware that two
25 members of the Security Forces lost their lives. I have
1 no knowledge as to the accuracy of the figures, but I,
2 I would not, I would not accept very readily statistics
3 produced at that particular time by the Army; I would
4 not necessarily accept that.
5 My recollection was that prior to Bloody Sunday
6 there was very little support in this city for the IRA
7 and any actions which they carried out certainly did not
8 have the endorsement and approval of the general
9 populace.
10 Q. There are two different questions. One is whether there
11 was approval or endorsement of the IRA, which is one
12 thing. The second is whether approved of or not, there
13 was an increase in activity prior to Bloody Sunday.
14 Were you conscious of an increase in incidents?
15 A. I was conscious of an increase in incidents throughout
16 Northern Ireland on the part of the IRA, and that is the
17 reason why I went to see the IRA because I was concerned
18 that our march would be used as an opportunity for any
19 type of confrontation.
20 Q. The Tribunal has received some evidence which suggests
21 that the Officials or some elements of the Officials
22 might have looked on Bloody Sunday as an opportunity to
23 shoot at the Army and that that might be no bad thing
24 for the promotion of their cause.
25 I do not want you to speculate, but do you have any
1 evidence which would tend either to support or deny that
2 proposition?
3 A. I do not have any evidence to support or deny it,
4 I simply do not know. I can tell you, Mr Clarke, that
5 the Official IRA had practically no support at that time
6 in this city.
7 Q. Sir, I am about to come on to an entirely new topic --
8 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, it is five minutes past twelve, we will
9 stop now until 10 to 1.00. We will stop now for lunch.
10 Could you come back at 10 to 1.00. As I remind all
11 witnesses whose evidence goes over a break, please do
12 not discuss the evidence you are giving with anybody
13 until you have finished giving it. Thank you.
14 (12.05 pm)
15 (The Short Adjournment)
16 (12.55 pm)
17 MR CLARKE: Could we come, please, to KC12.65. These, as
18 you know, Mr Cooper, are the notes that the Inquiry
19 obtained from the Sunday Times archive. You say in your
20 first statement that you reject the document in its
21 entirety and that you decline to give it credibility by
22 addressing it in more detail. Is that still your
23 position.
24 A. Yes, that is still my position.
25 Q. The Tribunal has heard evidence from John Barry, who was
1 with the Sunday Times in 1972, that these were his notes
2 and that it is his handwriting that appears from time to
3 time at the side of the page, and the evidence which he
4 has given to the Inquiry is that the typed notes are
5 a summary of a probably taped interview, including from
6 time to time verbatim quotes which he had with you after
7 the Sunday Times had published a major article about the
8 events of Bloody Sunday in April 1972.
9 Firstly, does the name John Barry mean anything to
10 you?
11 A. No. Sorry, that is not an accurate answer. It has
12 meant something to me since this Tribunal started.
13 Q. But did it mean anything to you before the Tribunal
14 began?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by a Sunday Times
17 journalist at some stage no earlier than towards the end
18 of April 1972 after the big Sunday Times article about
19 Bloody Sunday had been published?
20 A. I have never been interviewed by the Insight team of the
21 Sunday Times.
22 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by anybody who was said
23 to be from or be connected with the Sunday Times?
24 A. I, I was interviewed on one occasion by a David Holden,
25 but my recollection is that that interview took place
1 before Bloody Sunday. I had a meal with him in the City
2 Hotel. He was assassinated three weeks later in Egypt.
3 Q. I am afraid it is necessary to go through this with you
4 to see what of it is inaccurate and what is not.
5 A. I am making it clear, Mr Clarke, that John Barry never
6 interviewed me.
7 Q. I follow that. I am bound to tell you, Mr Cooper, that
8 there are only a limited number of logical possibilities
9 that arise in relation to this material. One is that
10 this interview took place and you have forgotten it.
11 The other is that it took place and you remember it, but
12 choose to deny that it took place.
13 Another is that it never took place at all and is
14 a complete invention. But I think I should also tell
15 you this is a note that goes on for several pages, in
16 great detail, with material which appears to be such as,
17 (a) to be in part consistent with the evidence that you
18 have given and (b) to consist of items that can only
19 have come from you and that, therefore, one conclusion
20 that the Tribunal might reach is that it does in fact,
21 contrary to what you say, reflect an interview that you
22 had and is exactly what it says it is.
23 In order to address that question with you, it is
24 necessary for me to go through, since you have declined
25 to do so in your statement, what portions of it are
1 certainly true and what are not; do you follow?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The note records that the original idea behind the march
4 was to hold a whole series of marches -- I think five in
5 all -- from various parts of the city, which would all
6 converge on the Guildhall Square.
7 That is true; is it not?
8 A. I am not sure if it was five marches was intended.
9 Q. Well, it was at least three?
10 A. Other marches were intended.
11 Q. Creggan, Shantallow, Waterside, at least three?
12 A. I, I cannot recollect the Creggan one; I can recollect
13 the Shantallow one and the Waterside one.
14 Q. With what march was the Shantallow march intended to
15 converge?
16 A. At the Guildhall.
17 Q. Where was the starting point of the march with which the
18 Shantallow march was intended to converge?
19 A. The Shantallow people were to march to the Guildhall.
20 The other march was starting in the Bishop's Field.
21 Q. That is in the Creggan; is it not?
22 A. That is true, yes.
23 Q. So there is at least: Creggan, Shantallow and Waterside?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Originally?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let us see what it says next:
3 "But it became fairly obvious that there were
4 elements who were determined to oppose this. Statements
5 appeared in newspapers from organisations like the DUA
6 and the LAW, a few of these."
7 That is all correct, is it not?
8 A. I just do not recollect who the statements were coming
9 from.
10 Q. We know that the Democratic Unionists announced that
11 they would hold what they described as a prayer meeting
12 at the Guildhall on the Sunday; do you remember that?
13 A. That was a tactic which they deployed on many occasions.
14 Q. And they deployed it on this occasion?
15 A. That could be true, yes.
16 Q. And I think the Loyalist Association of Workers opposed
17 the march; did they not?
18 A. That puzzles me, that one, because, if my memory is
19 correct, there was not a local organisation of LAW, that
20 was very much a Belfast area organisation.
21 Q. Let us see what comes next:
22 "It became obvious that they would play the old
23 rough game again. Then, at the heels of the hunt, they
24 issued a statement saying that they intend holding
25 a rally actually in the Guildhall Square on the Sunday."
1 That is what the DUA did; is it not?
2 A. I do not recollect that.
3 Q. We know, as a matter of public record, that it did.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. "... about four days before the march -- I think it was
6 the Tuesday or Wednesday -- I had a telephone call from
7 Lagan and he said 'Look here, I have had a discussion
8 with MacLellan and he is forcing me to deal with the
9 march from Shantallow.'"
10 There is a note to the side which says:
11 "(IC added 'a detailed discussion').
12 "Now the Shantallow estate has very close to it
13 a large Protestant estate with a lot of policemen live,
14 Belmont. It was felt that there might be some trouble
15 passing Belmont, but as it came off the Strand this was
16 to be met by a force not of military bit of policemen.
17 MacL was forcing Lagan into dealing with the Shantallow
18 march. Now Lagan did not relish this idea, in fact he
19 was completely opposed to having anything to do with
20 stopping the Shantallow march."
21 It is true, is it not, Lagan did express to you his
22 concern about the march that was proposed to come from
23 Shantallow?
24 A. Yes, but not for the reasons stated here.
25 Q. Were those some of the reasons?
1 A. The thing that I cannot understand about this particular
2 aspect is, that it says that "the Shantallow estate has
3 very close to it a very large Protestant estate" which
4 is Belmont. That is quite true.
5 "It was felt there might be some trouble passing
6 Belmont, but as it came off the Strand this was to be
7 met by force, not of military but of policemen."
8 If, if it was the case that Belmont was a flash
9 point, why would there be a suggestion to stop it on the
10 Strand Road and not stop it earlier on before it passed
11 Belmont?
12 Q. I do not know, but was there such a suggestion?
13 A. There was not. We are talking here about credibility of
14 comments which are alleged to have been made. Why would
15 the police stop it on the Strand Road? Why would they
16 not stop it before it reached the Belmont estate which
17 has been identified here as a potential flash point?
18 Q. Is it right that Mr Lagan told you that
19 Brigadier MacLellan was forcing him, that is to say
20 Mr Lagan, the police into dealing with the march from
21 Shantallow?
22 A. I do not ever recollect Mr Lagan saying that
23 Brigadier MacLellan was forcing him to deal with the
24 march in that way. I do not recollect him ever alluding
25 to Brigadier MacLellan in any conversation that he had
1 with me. In other words, I believe that Lagan treated
2 that as confidential.
3 Q. Is it the fact that he was completely opposed to having
4 anything to do with stopping the Shantallow march?
5 A. Frank Lagan did not believe in stopping any marches. He
6 believed that the way to handle it was to allow marches
7 to proceed. We had our fair share of bans over a period
8 of time and Lagan did not support the idea of stopping
9 marches.
10 Q. Let us go down a little further, may we, please. The
11 note goes on to record:
12 "So NICRA were having great difficulty in getting
13 through to the Derry CRA. The Derry CRA is controlled
14 in the main by the Officials."
15 Is that correct? Was that correct?
16 A. I was not aware of that.
17 Q. Is that what you told a journalist?
18 A. I did not tell a journalist that.
19 Q. "But speaking personally although I have had a constant
20 dialogue with Brigid Bond for the past two or three
21 years, the local association does not enjoy my support
22 or confidence." Is that accurate?
23 A. No, it is not accurate, I was concerned about the level
24 of stewarding, but I would not go so far as to say they
25 did not enjoy my support or my confidence. I had
1 already agreed to assist the march so they must have had
2 my confidence.
3 Q. "And because the NICRA were having great difficulty in
4 getting through to them, it was decided to hold this
5 meeting in Shantallow two or three -- I forget -- nights
6 before the march, to see whether this march should be
7 held for Shantallow."
8 Is it right there was a meeting in Shantallow two or
9 three nights before the march to decide whether the
10 march should be held?
11 A. No, I do not believe that there was a meeting in
12 Shantallow to decide if the march should be held.
13 Q. Was there a meeting anywhere else?
14 A. There was a meeting in Shantallow, but the outcome of
15 the meeting did not deal with the question of whether
16 the march should be held or not.
17 Q. What did it deal with?
18 A. It dealt with the situation regarding stewarding. It
19 was an attempt to get stewards.
20 Q. Then there has been an unnecessary blanking out of an
21 initial. What is in the original, as you will be able
22 to see from your copy, if you have it with you, is "McC"
23 meaning McCorry:
24 "... came down with the intention of hatcheting this
25 march from Shantallow. I think there was Kevin McCorry,
1 Desmond O'Donnell and IC, who were speakers."
2 Were those three persons speakers at the meeting?
3 A. I do not have a recollection of Desmond O'Donnell coming
4 down.
5 Q. Is it correct that he is an SDLP man from Andersonstown
6 and he promoted the record "The men behind the wire"?
7 A. Desmond O'Donnell was a member of the SDLP. I am not
8 aware of his association with the record "The men behind
9 the wire".
10 Q. Did he come from Andersonstown?
11 A. I do not know that, I -- he came from Belfast, but
12 I understood it was south Belfast.
13 Q. It goes on to say this:
14 "McC [McCorry] spoke first. He spoke for about 20
15 minutes and failed to mention whether NICRA wanted the
16 march to go on or not. In fact, he welched at the last
17 minute and said nothing on this topic."
18 Is that accurate?
19 A. I have no recollection of that.
20 Q. "I, [that is you], spoke second and made a very hard
21 speech as most politicians do if you want to get over a
22 point which you know is to many people unpalatable you
23 over-emphasise it. I said that the march must not go on
24 for sectarian reasons. A vote was held and it was
25 agreed that the march should not go on."
1 Cutting that down: did you speak at this meeting?
2 A. If I spoke at the meeting it was in the context of
3 stewarding.
4 Q. Did you say that the march must not go on?
5 A. That was not my recollection at that time when the
6 meeting was held.
7 Q. Was a vote held and it was agreed the march --
8 A. It is not my recollection that there was a vote held at
9 that meeting.
10 Q. When was it agreed and how that the march should not go
11 on?
12 A. I believe it was agreed later by the, by the local civil
13 rights organisation that the march should not proceed
14 from Shantallow.
15 Q. There is a meeting which discussed stewarding and then
16 subsequently it is agreed that the march will not go on
17 at all; is that your recollection?
18 A. Sorry, there was a meeting to discuss stewarding which
19 happened earlier on in the week and a decision was
20 taken, if my memory serves me right, on the Thursday not
21 to proceed with the march.
22 Q. But not taken at a meeting?
23 A. Not taken at a meeting.
24 Q. Then it goes on to record this:
25 "I could see, though, that there were strains
1 between the Derry Association and NICRA. The second
2 thing which became obvious was that there had been no
3 real organisation done for the march, which I knew would
4 be at least 10,000 in size."
5 Then there is a reference to the organisation that
6 had taken place in 1968 with a large number of stewards
7 relating to every single aspect of the route, of
8 marches. There is an observation "this was not like
9 that."
10 It is correct, is it not, it did become obvious to
11 you there had not been any real organisation done for
12 this march?
13 A. That was not the case. I was concerned that perhaps
14 there was not enough done.
15 Q. The record goes on:
16 "It was approached in a very lax, disorganised,
17 loose sort of fashion. I detected that in fact NICRA
18 had done very little spade work on this themselves."
19 Is that the view that you held in 1972?
20 A. No.
21 Q. "Lagan contacted me and asked me what had transpired at
22 the meeting and I told him that the Shantallow march
23 would be off."
24 You did at some stage tell Mr Lagan that the
25 Shantallow march would be off; did you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you presumably say that was not --
3 A. That was public knowledge.
4 Q. But were you telling him that that was what had
5 transpired at a meeting?
6 A. No, not at that meeting which these notes say.
7 Q. It goes on to say:
8 "He promised to let me know what the Army tactics
9 would be on the day of the march."
10 Did he do that?
11 A. Did Frank Lagan tell me that he would let me know the
12 Army tactics?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I would doubt if Frank Lagan knew himself what the Army
15 tactics were going to be.
16 Q. Did he say that he would tell you once he learned what
17 they were?
18 A. No, he did not.
19 Q. "I in turn promised him that I would let him know if
20 anything was worrying me."
21 Is that true?
22 A. I do not recollect that particular comment.
23 Q. The top of the next page, please, take it down to about
24 halfway, please. Then the note goes on to record this:
25 "That Sunday, before I went to the march, I drove
1 around the city."
2 Is that right?
3 A. I gave evidence to this Tribunal earlier on today that
4 I walked -- my statement says that it was a very nice
5 morning and that I was wearing a cardigan. I did not
6 drive around the city.
7 Q. You went around the city?
8 A. I have in my evidence said that I walked from my home in
9 Crawford's Square down William Street and into Waterloo
10 Place.
11 Q. It goes on to record:
12 "The first regiment I caught sight of positioned
13 near my home were the Paras. They were around
14 Francis Street."
15 It is your evidence that you did see the Paras; is
16 it not?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Then there is a reference to getting to the Creggan
19 estate and seeing the large crowd. That is true, you
20 did go up to the Bishop's Field and saw a large crowd?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "Cooper's contact man on the CRA exec is Hugh Logue, who
23 is one of Cooper's constituency officers and also on the
24 executive of the SDLP."
25 That is accurate, is it?
1 A. He was not one of my constituency officers.
2 Q. Was he on the executive?
3 A. Of the SDLP?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I do not recollect if he was at that time, but he
6 certainly was prominent within the SDLP.
7 Q. Was he your contact man on the CRA executive?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was anybody else?
10 A. I had good relationships with several people on the
11 civil rights executive.
12 Q. It goes on to record:
13 "So Cooper first learned of the march in Derry about
14 two weeks before, which he says was immediately after
15 the CRA exec had given it reluctant approval."
16 Is that correct?
17 A. I am not aware that the CRA executive's approval was
18 reluctant.
19 Q. Did you first learn of the march immediately after the
20 CRA executive had given its approval, whether reluctant
21 or otherwise?
22 A. I cannot remember that.
23 Q. "The situation was that Derry CRA had already issued
24 a statement making it clear that they were going to hold
25 a march. Then they went along to NICRA and said 'Look
1 we are going ahead, give us the approval or else'."
2 BB [Brigid Bond] was adamant that a march was going
3 to be held. And she was supported by the Official wing
4 of Sinn Fein as represented on the exec and she simply
5 said 'We are going to have a march even if you do not
6 give us your approval.'"
7 Is that correct?
8 A. I think that is rubbish.
9 Q. They were not presented with a fait accompli?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you say something to that effect to a journalist?
12 A. I said nothing in this entire eight pages to John Barry.
13 Q. Or any other journalist?
14 A. Or any other journalist.
15 Q. The note goes on to record:
16 "There was not general support for the march in
17 Derry when the local CRA announced it. When NICRA gave
18 its approval that was different."
19 Is that correct?
20 A. I would think that the local Civil Rights Association
21 would have more credibility in Derry than the NICRA
22 executive.
23 Q. "Indeed, when some of us examined the political climate
24 in the community and listened to the reasons NICRA gave
25 at its press conference announcing the march we felt it
1 should be supported."
2 Does that represent the course of your political
3 thinking?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "John Hume did not."
6 We know that is correct.
7 Then there is a politically gossipy observation --
8 A. Can I just stop you there just for a moment: at the
9 stage when it is alleged that these discussions were
10 going on, may I remind you that the march to Magilligan
11 happened the previous week and John Hume was present at
12 the march at Magilligan. He was not opposed to marches
13 in principle; he was concerned about this particular
14 one.
15 Q. Right?
16 A. So the statement "unless he organises something in Derry
17 he is not prepared to align himself with it" is absolute
18 rubbish because he was at Magilligan the week before.
19 Q. That is not an observation you made; is that what you
20 are saying?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Then in brackets:
23 "(IC remembered that JH was against the October 5th
24 1968 march.)"
25 Is that correct?
1 A. John Hume was present at the 5th October march 1968 and
2 strongly supported it.
3 Q. The note says.
4 "But watched it from the side of the mountain as the
5 marchers came up the street."
6 A. There is film transcript of him marching on the march,
7 it is a matter of public record.
8 Q. "Then in the wake of that on 9th October, JH ran for
9 chairman of the CAC"; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "... got elected vice chairman under IC who had been on
12 the October march."
13 Is that correct, is it not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. "'The hallmark of a good politician,' said IC, with
16 a snide relish."
17 Did you say some such remark?
18 A. I do not recollect it.
19 Q. Can we scroll down, please. There is an exposition of
20 John Hume's reasons:
21 "He felt that marches in Derry were a bad idea at
22 the time. He felt that they would inevitably end up in
23 violence and he felt that even perhaps death could
24 result. Perhaps most, at the back of his mind, it was
25 to some extent eroding his political position in Derry.
1 Because he has been identified as less than militant in
2 the city. So he did not support it."
3 A. He was at Magilligan the previous week, so he
4 supported -- he still supported the idea of having
5 anti-internment marches.
6 Q. Did he feel that this march would inevitably end up in
7 violence?
8 A. I -- he did not put it to me that it would inevitably
9 end up in violence. He was concerned that there could
10 be violence. But this paragraph or sentence that he was
11 against marches in general, the fact that he was at
12 Magilligan the previous week gives the lie to that.
13 Q. "IC felt that there would be some violence.
14 Aggro Corner. But I felt it was important to put the
15 issue. And I thought it was important to wrest the
16 leadership from the men of violence. That was the
17 principal reason why I supported it."
18 Is that an accurate statement of your political
19 position and reasoning?
20 A. I, I have all my life been opposed to violence. The
21 world and his neighbour knows that.
22 Q. Did you feel there would be some violence in the form of
23 aggravation of some kind on this march?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Then there is a passage which deals with a meeting in
1 the Brandywell. Could we highlight it from "re-the
2 Brandywell meeting ..." down, please. The note records
3 this:
4 "It was held a week after JH, IC, and Hugh Logue
5 were all arrested."
6 That must, I think, correct me if I am wrong, be
7 a reference to your arrest in August 1971; is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know what meeting in the Brandywell is here being
11 referred to?
12 A. No.
13 Q. "... says the meeting was organised by the Derry CCC."
14 What does that stand for?
15 A. I do not know.
16 Q. "... which is little less than a wing of John Hume's
17 City and Foyle SDLP."
18 A. It is very peculiar if it is a wing of John Hume's City
19 and Foyle SDLP that the leader of the Nationalist Party
20 was a speaker and that the Member of Parliament for
21 South Down, James O'Reilly, who was also a nationalist,
22 it was amazing that they were invited to be speakers.
23 Q. You cannot recall what this meeting is?
24 A. No.
25 Q. "HL represented NICRA. White was invited at 12 the
1 night before but stood on his dignity and refused. It
2 was well-organised. But it produced some resentment
3 from the more militant groups in the city who thought
4 they had been frozen out and upstaged."
5 Do you have any idea what that is?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Then there is more reference to John Hume's position as
8 opposed to yours. As to John Hume's the note reads as
9 follows:
10 "He is entirely opposed to street demonstrations."
11 Is that right?
12 A. Despite the fact that he was at Magilligan the week
13 previously...
14 Q. Magilligan was not a street.
15 A. Sorry, it was a street, Mr Clarke. The march started
16 off on the road and marched for a considerable distance
17 down the road.
18 Q. Yes, but all the kerfuffle took place on the sand?
19 A. Yes, but there was a considerable amount of marching on
20 the road.
21 Q. "He likes to deal with things in a much cooler, more
22 rational fashion. He feels that street demonstrations
23 in the present climate inevitably lead to a heightening
24 of tension, violence, stone-throwing and he does not
25 want to be seen or in any way identified as having
1 a part of that. Therefore he was against any aspect of
2 street demos."
3 Are you saying that is all incorrect?
4 A. In general that would be Hume's position, yes.
5 Q. "He thought that the rent and rates campaign was the way
6 people could express their resentment."
7 Presumably that is true?
8 A. That campaign was organised by the Northern Ireland
9 Civil Rights Association and was extended throughout
10 Northern Ireland.
11 Q. "IC thought that this was too docile. Derry people had
12 lived in a climate of demonstrations and marches,
13 emotion, so this was rather dull. So IC participated in
14 all the new round of CRA marches. He felt 'it was the
15 best weapon we had. It was a way of letting off steam
16 and above all they were the most effective weapon to
17 wrest leadership from the gunmen.'"
18 Was that your position at the time?
19 A. My position at the time was that I believed that
20 demonstrations had a place in their opposition to
21 internment without trial.
22 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, KC12.67. Highlight
23 the first half, please. There is a quote:
24 "'They were gaining support by the square mile.'"
25 It is not clear who the "they" is in that quote.
1 The note then goes on to record this:
2 "The multiple march idea was derived, IC thought,
3 from the Falls Park 2nd January march in Belfast -- to
4 which people came from all parts. Ideas in Derry was to
5 show that if the feeling against internment was not
6 confined merely to the no-go areas."
7 Is that the reason for the multiple march idea?
8 A. I, I was not involved at the planning stage of the Derry
9 march at any -- I was only involved at the latter
10 stages, so I do not know what the thinking of the civil
11 rights movement in Derry was.
12 Q. The note goes on to record:
13 "IC doubts if it was anything so sophisticated
14 originally as a symbol of the split between the
15 Shantallow people and the Creggan crowd".
16 Do you know what that might be a reference to -- the
17 split between the Shantallow people and the people in
18 the Creggan?
19 A. I do not have a clue.
20 Q. "... though he admits that the Civil Rights Association
21 in Shantallow is SDLP dominated." Is that correct?
22 A. I do not think that is correct either.
23 Q. "People like Michael Quigley, Danny McGilloway,
24 Michael Drury" were they SDLP supporters?
25 A. I do not know who Michael Quigley is. Michael Drury was
1 an SDLP supporter. Danny McGilloway, my knowledge of
2 him came through his involvement in the shirt industry
3 and I do not know what his politics were.
4 Q. Was Michael Drury Hume's welfare officer?
5 A. I do not -- Michael Drury represented people at local
6 tribunals but I do not believe that he was ever employed
7 by SDLP or John Hume.
8 Q. It then goes on to record the following:
9 "IC did not realise how bad things were until two to
10 three days before the march. Hugh Logue kept telling
11 him that the Derry organisation were holding meetings.
12 And a couple of press notices had appeared saying that
13 they were holding meetings for stewards and the like.
14 As it transpired, very few people turned up at those."
15 Is that right, that you became aware that very few
16 people were turning up at stewards' meetings?
17 A. I was only aware of the meeting which I attended in
18 Shantallow.
19 Q. "Even the meeting at Shantallow that I talked about --
20 there was no real organisation, no plans, no specific
21 instructions, no arm bands, none of the fundamental
22 stuff."
23 Is that an accurate description of the meeting at
24 Shantallow?
25 A. The meeting at Shantallow was quite a constructive
1 meeting and there were people who volunteered their
2 services as stewards. It was the training aspect which
3 I felt was missing.
4 Q. May you have held the view that there was no real
5 organisation, planning, or specific instructions?
6 A. Of course I did not hold that view. I was aware that
7 there were meetings being -- there was a meeting being
8 held in Shantallow and I had attended it and people had
9 turned up for that meeting.
10 Q. Then it goes on to record this:
11 "IC remembers speaking to McCorry on the telephone.
12 He believed that the demonstration should be confined to
13 the Bogside. But the feeling on the exec was that it
14 should make at least the gesture of breaking the ban."
15 Did Mr McCorry tell you on the telephone that his
16 view was that the demonstration should be confined to
17 the Bogside?
18 A. Absolutely not.
19 Q. Absolutely not?
20 A. Absolutely -- he did not tell me that he felt there
21 should be even a gesture-breaking of the ban.
22 Q. I am sorry, we are at cross-purposes. The note records
23 that Mr McCorry believed that the demonstration should
24 be confined to the Bogside, ie that was his view, but
25 the feeling on the exec was that it should make at least
1 the gesture of breaking the ban.
2 Do I understand from your last answer that it was
3 indeed the belief of Mr McCorry that the demonstration
4 should be confined to the Bogside?
5 A. I do not recollect that ever being said to me, but
6 I also know that I was never told that the
7 Northern Ireland Civil Rights Executive believed that
8 there should be a breaking of the ban.
9 Q. "Looking back on it I would uphold that decision had the
10 march been well-organised. There is no responsibility
11 of sectarian confrontation even in the Guildhall and the
12 ban was silly. But McCorry did originally feel that
13 there was a danger of violence though in the end he gave
14 in to the wishes of others on the executive."
15 Is any of that accurate?
16 A. I am not aware of that decision of the Northern Ireland
17 Civil Rights Executive. It certainly was not
18 communicated to me.
19 Q. Or of Mr McCorry's disagreement with it?
20 A. Well, I was not at -- McCorry did not express to me that
21 he had any different opinion to that held by his
22 executive. It was never -- that was never conveyed to
23 me.
24 Q. "The meeting at Shantallow was in the community centre.
25 Four or 500 people there."
1 Is that correct?
2 A. That is not my recollection.
3 Q. "No comparable meeting ever held in the Creggan."
4 Was that correct?
5 A. I cannot answer that.
6 Q. How many were there approximately at the meeting in
7 Shantallow in your --
8 A. Sixty, 70.
9 Q. "By the time of that meeting, [that must be the
10 Shantallow meeting] the idea had already dwindled to two
11 marches. Because BB [Brigid Bond] had done no work over
12 on the Waterside or anywhere else. There was talk of
13 a third march from Brandywell."
14 Was there talk of a third march from the Brandywell?
15 A. I have never ever been told that there was a march
16 planned from the Brandywell.
17 Q. Then there is the sentence:
18 "That was the Provo one."
19 Was the Brandywell a Provo area?
20 A. I certainly would not have considered it at the time,
21 I can recollect other civil rights marches which were
22 held in Our Lady of Lourdes Hall and that was not the
23 tenor of those marches -- those meetings were held in
24 1968, I would not have reached that conclusion.
25 Q. Can we scroll further down, please, to the end of the
1 page. There is then a passage which deals with Lagan's
2 role. It reads:
3 "There was no co-operation or relationship between
4 the Army and the elected representatives after
5 internment. Lagan, thus, played the role of
6 intermediary. He told IC that the authorities were
7 determined to stop the march."
8 That is correct, is it? Mr Lagan told you the
9 authorities --
10 A. Mr Lagan told me the day before the march was held that
11 the march would not be permitted to go through to the
12 Guildhall.
13 Q. Then there is a comment followed by a statement of fact.
14 The comment is:
15 "The relationship between IC [that is you] and FL
16 [Mr Lagan] is perhaps less close than IC thinks. But it
17 is founded on some trust. At one stage when... " then
18 there is a name blanked out "... was Provo OC, there was
19 a plot to shoot Lagan as he took his child to
20 St Columb's College. IC got wind of it" and the
21 journalist has written what is obviously intended to be
22 "via McEvoy presumably and persuaded them not to kill
23 him, largely on the ground that he was their only
24 contact on internees. IC also told Lagan not to take
25 his kid to school again. That was a month before
1 Bloody Sunday."
2 Did you learn not long before Bloody Sunday of
3 a plot to shoot Mr Lagan?
4 A. I, I never heard of any plot to shoot Mr Lagan.
5 Mr Lagan was a well-respected policeman in this city and
6 I believe that the IRA would have committed a fatal
7 mistake if they had done that.
8 Q. But you did not persuade them not to do so?
9 A. No, I -- I have no recollection of anything like this.
10 Q. The note goes on:
11 "IC is sure that when he went to Lagan's home on the
12 Wednesday night that Lagan told him then that the march
13 was going to be stopped. FL mentioned specifically the
14 Shantallow march (see above). IC's recollection is also
15 that Lagan said that he was not in favour of stopping
16 any marches but that the Army was opposed to him."
17 Did you go to Mr Lagan's home on the Wednesday
18 before Bloody Sunday upon which occasion he told you,
19 firstly, that the march was going to be stopped and then
20 mentioned his concerns about Shantallow?
21 A. I did not. I have only ever been in Frank Lagan's house
22 on one occasion and that was after he left the police
23 force.
24 Q. A little later on the note records:
25 "On the Thursday, after the Shantallow meeting, IC
1 went to FL's home about midnight to tell him it was all
2 off. Both people are convinced their telephones are
3 tapped so they do not talk."
4 Did you go to Mr Lagan's house on the Thursday to
5 tell him that the Shantallow march was off?
6 A. Total rubbish.
7 Q. Were you convinced that your telephone was tapped?
8 A. Oh, yes, on many occasions I was convinced my telephone
9 was tapped all right, but I do not know how I could have
10 said that Frank Lagan was concerned that his was tapped.
11 Q. Could we have KC12.68, please. There is then a passage
12 which is headed "Contacts with the Provos," which
13 records:
14 "IC approached the Provo OC" a name has been blanked
15 out "with whom he was on quite good terms."
16 We know that you did approach the Provos, one of
17 whom was the OC; that is right, is it not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It then says:
20 "IC talked" --
21 A. Can I hold a second, it says here that I was on quite
22 good terms. That is not the case.
23 Q. It also says "IC talked to him on the Saturday."
24 Was that the time when you had talked to him?
25 A. On the Saturday?
1 Q. That is what it says?
2 A. Well, I never had any meeting with the Provos on the
3 Saturday. I had a meeting on the Tuesday and I got
4 a reply on the Thursday.
5 Q. "Employed something of a trick. Gave [blank] to
6 understand that he thought the military were planning to
7 invade the Creggan. So quite apart from its being
8 desirable for the Provos to take all guns out of the
9 Bogside area, it made military sense to have them up in
10 the Creggan."
11 Did you give the Provos to understand that you
12 thought that the military were planning to invade the
13 Creggan?
14 A. Absolutely not.
15 Q. Then the journalist, no doubt by reference to the
16 Saturday reference, has given a note to himself.
17 "(Note: this means that the first contacts must have
18 been by someone else ... BD??? [presumably Bernadette
19 Devlin])".
20 The note then goes on to record:
21 "IC said he knew [and then a name has been blanked
22 out, which is known to us as PIRA 11] but had bad
23 relations with him ever since [the name is repeated] ran
24 him out of the New Lodge Road some time
25 around June 1970."
1 Please do not mention the name, but is the true name
2 of PIRA 17 somebody who was known to you at the time?
3 A. He was known by reputation and he certainly never ran me
4 out of the New Lodge Road and I cannot quite understand
5 what I would be doing in the New Lodge Road; it was not
6 part of my constituency. It was not anywhere where
7 I had been during the civil rights march. So I do not
8 know what this is about.
9 Q. Where is the New Lodge Road?
10 A. Belfast, a very well-known part of Belfast. So I do not
11 know how this person ran me out of the New Lodge Road.
12 Q. Had you had bad relations with him in some way?
13 A. I scarcely knew the man. I knew him by reputation,
14 I did not know him personally.
15 Q. What was his reputation?
16 A. He was an officer in the IRA.
17 Q. We then --
18 A. He was a very well-known officer in the IRA.
19 Q. We then come to the events of the day. The note
20 records:
21 "IC says that as they came up past the gasworks, he
22 saw a Provo on Hogg's folly, who waved to him. And on
23 the Lone Moor Road, halfway along from Southway,
24 a continental cameraman -- American? Glasses, tartan
25 coat, in the city with a couple of girls a few days
1 later -- tried to photograph the Provos, who were
2 brazenly loading arms into a car."
3 Then there is a name which you will have but which
4 is blanked out on the screen?
5 A. I do not have it.
6 Q. Can you be provided with it. Do you have the unredacted
7 copy?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The name which is known to us as PIRA 17:
10 "... grabbed him and removed the film. IC happened
11 to be passing and [then the initials of PIRA 17 are
12 repeated] shrugged and said 'Sorry for the violence,
13 Ivan, but we could not allow it, you know how it is',
14 [the name was then repeated] was also the Provo on
15 Hogg's Folly."
16 A. What was I doing in Hogg's Folly?
17 Q. I do not know, were you in Hogg's Folly?
18 A. Was Hogg's Folly on the march route?
19 Q. I do not know, where is Hogg's Folly?
20 A. Hogg's Folly is further over the Lecky Road, I certainly
21 was nowhere near Hogg's Folly on Bloody Sunday.
22 Q. Did you know PIRA 17, the man whose true name appears in
23 the copy that is in front of you?
24 A. Mr Clarke, you are aware that I gave you a piece of
25 paper earlier on and that name was on it.
1 Q. Yes, quite right. So the answer is: yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see him on Bloody Sunday remove the film of
4 a cameraman who was trying to take photographs when the
5 Provos were brazenly loading arms into a car?
6 A. I saw no altercation of that description. Once again
7 I point out that this has been woven together with an
8 alleged wave which this individual made to me in Hogg's
9 Folly. I was nowhere near, nor was the march near
10 Hogg's Folly.
11 Q. Your evidence to the Tribunal is that nothing of this
12 kind happened anywhere on Bloody Sunday at all?
13 A. No, it is a total fabrication.
14 Q. Can we scroll down, please, from:
15 "IC then launched into a story: George McEvoy,
16 Martin McGuinness and [the name of PIRA 17 has been
17 blanked out] were in a house in William Street, almost
18 down by Chamberlain Street. Their plan was to fire
19 through the doorway at soldiers who IC says were
20 occupying some of the houses on the other side of
21 William Street. The troops moved in and the trio were
22 trapped. IC says that Martin McGuinness panicked, and
23 thought he was going to be caught. McEvoy said to
24 dismantle the Thompsons and put them up their jerseys.
25 They did and ran off with the crowd. But, IC recounts,
1 McEvoy was also carrying a pistol in a holster and as he
2 ran over the barrier, he dropped it."
3 Pausing there, did you recount to a journalist the
4 story of these three individuals being in a house
5 somewhere in the William Street and Chamberlain Street
6 area with a plan to fire at soldiers on the other side
7 from where they were?
8 A. That is a total and utter fabrication.
9 Q. Not a piece of truth in it from beginning to end?
10 A. Not one inch of truth in it.
11 Q. Is this a story you had been told by anyone?
12 A. It is not a story I was told by anyone, but you are also
13 aware that two journalists have written a book in which
14 they have allluded to this incident. I have not read
15 the book, but I have read in the newspapers that this
16 was one of the allegations, but as far as I am
17 concerned, I have no knowledge of -- I had no knowledge
18 of any incident of this nature.
19 Q. Or of Mr McEvoy carrying a pistol?
20 A. Well, he was wearing a chalk-striped suit I say in my
21 evidence to the Tribunal. It is certainly not the type
22 of attire to be shoving guns up your jersey.
23 Q. The note goes on:
24 "He bent to pick it up and was shot three times by
25 a Para -- the final shot going through the heel of his
1 shoe. He picked up the pistol and ran off."
2 The journalist has written a note to himself:
3 "(I am highly dubious of that whole story. It reeks
4 of minimum approach to me.)"
5 A. It does not surprise me.
6 Q. But you say the story is nothing to do with you?
7 A. Rubbish. Nothing to do with me.
8 Q. The note records:
9 "George McEvoy was for a long time intelligence
10 officer of the Provos."
11 So far as you were aware, was he ever linked with
12 the Provos in any way?
13 A. I never knew him ever to be linked with the Provos.
14 Q. "He ran a business -- Derry Office Supplies".
15 Is that correct, is it not?
16 A. No, it was not called Derry Office Supplies.
17 Q. What was it called?
18 A. Derry Office Equipment.
19 Q. The note says:
20 "... which was one of the Provos supply lines."
21 Do you know anything about that?
22 A. What, was Derry Office Supplies supplying the Provos
23 with guns or what does that mean?
24 Q. I do not know, do you know anything about it?
25 A. I certainly do not know.
1 Q. Then the next paragraph deals with the march, the number
2 of people and it has a comment:
3 "It was at once obvious that the CRA had its old
4 ghost, no proper amplification equipment."
5 Is that right --
6 A. That is not correct.
7 Q. They have invented -- somebody has invented that as
8 well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. "At one moment McCorry actually seemed to be at the rear
11 of the crowd so everyone was confused which made IC mad
12 because 'There were some very distinguished people
13 there: I saw Stephen McGonigal of the Development
14 Commission and Bobby Toland of the Development
15 Commission."
16 Did you see those people there on the day?
17 A. I do not recollect seeing Stephen McGonigal, formerly of
18 the Development Commission, or Bobby Toland at the
19 Bloody Sunday march. I had seen them at other marches.
20 Q. "Anyway they set off, front row of CRA officers, plus IC
21 and Bernadette."
22 That is obviously Bernadette Devlin. Is that what
23 the front row consisted of?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What did it consist of?
1 A. It consisted of some local people from the local Civil
2 Rights Association. Those of us who were marching were
3 a number of rows back -- those of us from outside who
4 were marching were a number of rows back.
5 Q. "After about ten yards youths of the stone-throwing type
6 began to come to the front."
7 That is correct?
8 A. That is in my recollection, they did not come to the
9 front at the start of the march.
10 Q. I thought the position was that a gap opened up in front
11 of the front-line of the march?
12 A. That is a different thing to saying that youths of the
13 stone-throwing type began to come to the front.
14 Q. So youths came to the front, but not of the
15 stone-throwing type?
16 A. I did not say that either.
17 Q. What was the position?
18 A. Well, the position as I recollect it was that the local
19 Civil Rights Association members were at the front row.
20 The lorry was driving a bit fast and they were unable to
21 keep up.
22 Q. Can we come to the next page, please. Can we take it
23 about halfway down, please.
24 "Cooper, about half an hour before the start, had
25 gone up to McCorry and said 'What is the plan?' McCorry
1 looked vague for a moment, then said 'We have definitely
2 decided to march down to Rossville Street and wheel.' IC
3 asked 'Are there stewards to wheel the crowd?' McC
4 'Everything is taken care of. Dozens of stewards down
5 there. We will be able to hold them and turn them into
6 Rossville Street.' IC 'Fair enough.'"
7 Did some such conversation as this take place?
8 A. No, the reason why this is not credible is because we
9 were aware before the march even started off, that there
10 was no way that we were going to get to the Guildhall.
11 A decision had been taken the previous day that the
12 march would have to be wheeled and the line of stewards
13 would have to be strong. So this, this is total
14 fabrication. Kevin McCorry was aware; he was not making
15 a decision on the hoof; he was aware of what the
16 strategy was; he did not have to tell me that; I knew
17 the strategy.
18 Q. The note goes on:
19 "IC estimates that if the front rank had not speeded
20 up, so great was the invasion of youths that after
21 200 yards they would have been at least 40 yards back.
22 McCorry unable to control them with the loudspeaker he
23 had."
24 Is that right?
25 A. No, the lorry had advanced but the front rows were not
1 overtaken by youths.
2 Q. Then it goes on:
3 "We came clobbering down Southway. At this stage
4 15,000. The first 50 yards of march literally hundreds
5 of young boys and no stewards. Much bitter talk from
6 the nominal front row."
7 Is that accurate?
8 A. No, I do not recollect any bitter talk from the nominal
9 front row.
10 Q. "Only a handful of stewards at the bottom of Southway.
11 That was when IC realised that the thing was going to be
12 extremely difficult to control. I said to McC on three
13 different occasions 'stop the march' to try to get the
14 stewards to come to the front. I remember coming along
15 Marlborough Terrace and meeting John Bierman and he said
16 'What do you think of it?' IC 'Jesus, this is going to
17 be bloody awful.'"
18 Did you tell McCorry on three different occasions to
19 stop the march in order to try to get the stewards to
20 come to the front?
21 A. No, we stopped the march at the top of William Street.
22 Can I also point out that I did not meet John Bierman at
23 Marlborough Terrace. John Bierman walked alongside me
24 down Southway; he wore a sheepskin coat and I remember
25 it extremely well.
1 Q. I think we can omit some of the material in the middle.
2 Can we come a little further down, please. There is
3 a sentence which begins:
4 "Says at Brandywell not many Provos joined" --
5 A. Sorry, there was a piece before that which I seem to
6 have missed.
7 Q. I have done it deliberately, but if you want to go back
8 to it --
9 A. I do want to go back to it.
10 Q. What do you want?
11 A. "The gasworks ..."
12 Q. "... coming past the gasworks" paragraph, can we have
13 that, please. What would you like to say about that?
14 A. What were we doing down at the gasworks?
15 Q. It may depend on what exactly it means by "past the
16 gasworks".
17 A. The gasworks are not near the route of the march.
18 Q. Then a little further on it says:
19 "... says at Brandywell not many Provos joined but
20 there was fierce breaking of ranks."
21 That appears to imply some Provos joined at the
22 Brandywell. Were you aware of some Provos joining when
23 the march reached the Brandywell?
24 A. At the time of this march there were very few Provos in
25 Derry and that is also a matter of public record by
1 those who know the structure of the organisation at that
2 time, that there were very few Provos at that time in
3 Derry and I have no recollection of looking out to see
4 how many Provos joined at the Brandywell.
5 Q. Did some join?
6 A. I cannot remember seeing any.
7 Q. Then the note records:
8 "Down William Street -- moving at a terribly fast
9 pace. It was then I could see that the Army were in the
10 side streets. And I also realised that the stewarding
11 was bad, really bad, because the stewards were armed
12 outstretched tipping out their fingers, having great
13 difficulty retaining contact with one another. When you
14 have that, it is absolutely crazy because you need at
15 least three or four rows deep of stewards. I ran very
16 nearly to the front of the parade."
17 Was there a time when you had to run and did run
18 very nearly to the front of parade?
19 A. Can I remind you that in my evidence this morning
20 I stated that there were stewards who were with the
21 march and in fact they were at the front of the march as
22 we approached where we had to turn into
23 Rossville Street. Those stewards were already at the
24 front of the march and the impression given in this is
25 that you had a minimum number of stewards with their
1 arms outstretched, unable to link arms, as was the
2 normal procedure, they only could tip each other's
3 fingers and that just is not true.
4 Q. That might be a reference to stewards on the side
5 streets across the entrance to various side streets?
6 A. Which side streets are you talking about?
7 Q. The side streets to the north of William Street as you
8 come down --
9 A. There were not any stewards in Lower Road or any of
10 those streets or Abbey Street, Mr Clarke.
11 Q. You say that, I think we have seen pictures of them,
12 but --
13 A. In those streets?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Well, I am not aware of them.
16 Q. Then a little later on:
17 "No Army cordon was visible in William Street and it
18 looked as if the marchers were going to get through.
19 But IC knew they were not. He had telephoned Lagan that
20 morning before he left his house, telephoned him at the
21 station and said simply 'Top of William Street?' Lagan
22 replied simply 'Well, you could be right.' IC deduced
23 that there was someone with him."
24 Did you have such a telephone conversation on the
25 morning of Bloody Sunday?
1 A. No, Mr Lagan had already made it clear to me that the
2 march was not going to get through; he had told me
3 a long time prior to that; he had already told me that
4 24 hours previously.
5 Q. Then the note goes on to record:
6 "But the lorry accelerated and turned right. There
7 were no stewards, everyone just careered on down
8 William Street. Not more than 20 people followed the
9 lorry. IC was swept down into William Street by crowd
10 pressure. But he was not at the front and had no
11 intention of getting there. He knew from past
12 experience that the hope of bargaining a way through is
13 vain once the Army have made up their minds. So he
14 decided to look for the lorry to try to get on it and
15 persuade the crowd to come to Free Derry Corner."
16 Were you swept down into William Street by crowd
17 pressure?
18 A. Well, can we take first of all what is being stated
19 here: that not more than 20 people followed the lorry to
20 Free Derry Corner. Well, there -- that is absolute
21 rubbish. Thousands followed the lorry to Free Derry
22 Corner, not 20 people. I was not swept down
23 William Street. I had already turned into
24 Rossville Street and I decided to follow the number --
25 the youths who had gone down to barrier 14; I decided to
1 follow them down in the hope that I could persuade some
2 of them to come back to the meeting.
3 So I was not swept down.
4 Q. Did you decide at any stage to look for the lorry in
5 order to try to get on it?
6 A. I never was on the lorry on Bloody Sunday at any stage.
7 Q. The top of the next page, please, KC12.70. The note
8 records:
9 "There was not much stone-throwing to start with.
10 A bit from the back. Anne Hope of NICRA was hit on the
11 head by a stone thrown from behind."
12 Do you remember that happening?
13 A. No, I do not.
14 Q. "Then came the first gas. When the water cannon came IC
15 was at the mouth of Chamberlain Street."
16 You told me this morning that you were not there
17 when the water cannon was fired?
18 A. I stand by that.
19 Q. "He pulled one or two wounded out of the way, then ran
20 over for FDC where he found everyone setting up the
21 meeting."
22 Do you remember pulling anybody who was in some
23 sense wounded out of the way?
24 A. I am not aware that anyone was wounded at that stage.
25 Q. Anybody hit by a stone?
1 A. I am not aware of it.
2 Q. "He was angry with McCorry and said 'What the hell, this
3 is bloody ridiculous'. Got a loud hailer. And the
4 lorry drove back too. They cruised back and forth down
5 Rossville Street. In the distance IC could see the
6 battle on the wasteground -- and people were just
7 hanging about, watching things as usual."
8 Did you get a loud hailer at some stage?
9 A. That is also rubbish. Um, the lorry did not cruise up
10 and down Rossville Street. The lorry parked at Free
11 Derry Corner. When I returned from barrier 14 the
12 speakers were already on the platform. Lord Brockway,
13 Rory McShane, Bernadette Devlin were already on the
14 platform and they were using the loudspeaker equipment.
15 I did not use a loud hailer that day.
16 Q. Did you at any stage go up and down or back and forth
17 Rossville Street trying to get people to come to the
18 meeting?
19 A. What this, what this statement alleges is that the lorry
20 cruised back -- up and down Rossville Street and
21 presumably it is inferring that I was on the lorry.
22 I never was on the lorry on Bloody Sunday.
23 Q. But my --
24 A. At all.
25 Q. I follow that. But my question was whether you ever
1 went up and down Rossville Street not on the lorry
2 trying to get people to come --
3 A. No.
4 Q. Then the account deals with the start of the meeting.
5 "BD was the first speaker. She had only been speaking
6 for a couple of minutes when there were a couple of
7 bangs obviously close rubber bullet shots and a couple
8 of Saracens came driving into the open ground."
9 It is right, is it not, Bernadette Devlin was the
10 first speaker?
11 A. In actual fact, she was not.
12 Q. You introduced her, but she was the first person --
13 A. I did not introduce her. The first thing that I did was
14 I apologised for the fact the Reverend Terence McCaughey
15 was unable to be there, so I was the first speaker.
16 Q. Who was the first person who was going actually to
17 address the meeting?
18 A. Bernadette.
19 Q. Thank you. It is right, is it not, that she had only
20 been speaking for a couple of minutes when there was the
21 sound of bangs?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then it goes on to record:
24 "A couple of Saracens came driving into the open
25 ground. And the Saracens were pursuing the boys as they
1 had done so many times before."
2 Is it possible that the first time that you saw
3 Saracens come driving into the open ground was as
4 Bernadette Devlin was beginning to speak or shortly
5 after?
6 A. I do not have a recollection of that.
7 Q. Then it goes on to record:
8 "Only a few seconds after that I heard the first
9 couple of rifle shots. I was on the back of the lorry.
10 BD was shouting 'Hold your ground, they did not do
11 anything to you.'"
12 Do you remember her saying words to that effect?
13 A. I think that is, that is a matter of public record.
14 I believe that Bernadette did say that at one stage, but
15 it is a matter of public record.
16 Q. My question was whether you had recollected it yourself?
17 A. I do not recollect it myself, but I have read it.
18 Q. "IC had, about 15 minutes before, had a woman he knew,
19 a Mrs Rudden, approach him with a handkerchief soaked in
20 blood, which she claimed to have bound round the leg of
21 a young lad."
22 Do you remember that happening?
23 A. I do not know any Mrs Rudden.
24 Q. Did somebody, whatever she was called, approach you with
25 a handkerchief soaked in blood?
1 A. No, absolutely not.
2 Q. The note records:
3 "I thought she was exaggerating. She said two
4 people had been shot."
5 Were you told when you were at the lorry that two
6 people had been shot?
7 A. No, I was not told that.
8 Q. "I remember giving off to her and saying 'you should not
9 be saying things like that in situations like this'."
10 Presumably you deny that that was said?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. "But when I heard two cracks, I knew they were high
13 velocity. Then there were other shots. The same high
14 velocity. I grabbed the microphone and shouted to
15 everyone to get down."
16 We know that you heard shots that you came to
17 believe were live. Is it right that you grabbed the
18 microphone and shouted to people to get down?
19 A. I did not. I did not have time.
20 Q. "People were shouting 'Catch yourself on, they are
21 rubber bullets'."
22 Did people say that or words to that effect?
23 A. They did not and you are aware I have already stated
24 that Bernadette Devlin pointed out to me that it was
25 lead.
1 Q. "But I could see the bullets bouncing off the road just
2 ahead of us."
3 That is what you have told us you did see?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "People were running off."
6 That is right, is it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "Some struck the wall above our head."
9 Is that right?
10 A. You asked me this morning could it have been the case
11 that it struck the Free Derry Corner wall and I said
12 that was possible.
13 Q. "IC thinks there was shooting from the walls at FDC."
14 That is indeed your view; is that right?
15 A. Where is this?
16 Q. "IC thinks there was shooting from the walls" --
17 A. Yes, that is my view.
18 Q. "He is sure there was gunfire from two sides."
19 That is true too?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There is a comment from the person who took the note:
22 "IC's recollections next are pretty incoherent
23 geographically but he seems to have headed for Meenan
24 Square where he saw a few Officials from his
25 constituency cowering in a corner."
1 You have told us you did not go to Meenan Square.
2 Did you see a few Officials from your constituency
3 somewhere cowering in a corner?
4 A. In Glenfada Park.
5 Q. Right. Can you remember who they were?
6 A. I cannot.
7 Q. You cannot?
8 A. No.
9 Q. "He ran into a house and got pillow slips for bandages.
10 He knew there was something serious."
11 Did you go into a house at some stage --
12 A. Absolutely not.
13 Q. You are sure about that?
14 A. I am positive.
15 Q. "Then he scurried towards the High Flats."
16 Did you ever do what may be described as scurrying
17 towards the High Flats?
18 A. I have already given evidence to the Tribunal that
19 I crawled towards the High Flats.
20 Q. "He claims to have seen two men shot at the barricade."
21 Have you claimed to have seen two men shot at the
22 barricade?
23 A. I have not.
24 Q. "Just before he arrived Barney McGuigan was shot."
25 Now, you did see Barney McGuigan shot?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then there is a reference to your having once employed
3 Barney. The note goes on:
4 "The first thought he had was medical aid. So he
5 ran round the back by the Westland Street flats."
6 Did you at some stage run round by the Westland
7 Street flats?
8 A. I was not in the vicinity of the Westland Street flats.
9 Q. It goes on to say:
10 "And met a man in hysterics who kept saying 'There
11 is four Provos trapped in the High Street, you have got
12 to get them out.' IC eventually slapped his face and
13 told him to get the hell away, he had work to do. The
14 man had seen McGuinness et al. go into the house in
15 William Street."
16 Were you ever approached by a man in hysterics with
17 this message?
18 A. I was not.
19 Q. Did you slap anyone on the face on the day?
20 A. I did not.
21 Q. "Eventually IC got to a telephone. In the house of
22 a coloured chap to which he was taken by this hysterical
23 man who had calmed down after the slap."
24 Was there anybody in the house where there was
25 a telephone who was a coloured chap?
1 A. There were very few telephones in the Bogside area at
2 the time of Bloody Sunday. I, I think I know all of the
3 coloured people who were in Derry at that time and, and
4 neither the two of them lived in the area of Meenan
5 Park. So it is a most bizarre story I have ever, ever
6 witnessed.
7 Q. "IC made two telephone calls, one to McDermott and one
8 to McCabe."
9 Did you telephone either of those two?
10 A. I did not telephone either of those two, but my
11 recollection could be wrong, I think Dr McDermott and
12 Dr McCabe were both on the march. I could be wrong
13 about that, but I, I think they were.
14 Q. You did not telephone them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. "The house was in Meenan Park. IC puffing up stairs.
17 Both calls were incoherent -- said he had reports of
18 a lot of people injured, and he personally knew of two
19 dead."
20 So none of that took place?
21 A. No.
22 Q. "Came out and ran into McEvoy."
23 You saw George McEvoy on the day, did you?
24 A. I saw him before -- as I came from barrier 14 to address
25 the crowd, I saw him standing not far from the rubble
1 barricade. He was attired in a chalk-striped suit.
2 Q. The note records:
3 "He was driving a Vauxhall in the road behind Meenan
4 Square."
5 Did you ever see him driving a vehicle at all that
6 day?
7 A. I did not see him driving any vehicle that day and I do
8 know that he did not have a Vauxhall. I knew the car
9 that he did have and it was not a Vauxhall.
10 Q. It goes on to say:
11 "IC had seen his car."
12 It may be that is a car different from the Vauxhall
13 "'a very distinctive type'."
14 A. I did not speak to him at all on Bloody Sunday.
15 Q. Had you seen his car?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What sort of car was it?
18 A. A Fiat Coupe.
19 Q. In navy blue?
20 A. Navy blue.
21 Q. Then there is an account of a conversation:
22 "McEvoy said 'I want to talk to you.' IC said 'Where
23 the hell have you been?' He said 'It's bloody bad, there
24 are five dead.' IC was incredulous. McEvoy said
25 'I stepped over their bodies.' Mentioned particularly
1 Patrick Doherty. In the back of the car IC saw six
2 gelignite bombs, a couple of revolvers and at least one
3 Thompson. The stuff had been kept in the cars."
4 Did you on Bloody Sunday see any car with bombs and
5 armaments in it?
6 A. I did not see any car on Bloody Sunday with bombs or
7 armaments in it, and I would also point out that, even
8 to this day, I do not know what a gelignite bomb looks
9 like.
10 Q. Then it says:
11 "McEvoy was furious about McGuinness and how
12 cowardly he was. Related the story about being trapped.
13 So IC then asked what the score was and McEvoy said the
14 Provos had been sent for."
15 Your evidence to the Tribunal is that is all simply
16 an invention of somebody's, is it?
17 A. I never spoke to George McEvoy on Bloody Sunday.
18 Q. Can we come, please, to the next page, KC12.71. The
19 note records the following:
20 "So they stood together by the gable end in Meenan
21 Park. IC saw three cars come in. A Triumph 1300, which
22 had been stolen from Jim Downs and from which the two
23 policemen were shot dead. A blue Vauxhall and a blue
24 Avenger, all packed to the teeth. Someone said 'There
25 is the boys'."
1 Did you at any stage on Bloody Sunday see three cars
2 arrive packed to the teeth with people, one of which was
3 the car from which two policemen had been shot dead
4 a few days before?
5 A. Firstly, I had no knowledge that two policemen were shot
6 from a Triumph 1300. Secondly, I saw no cars packed
7 with boys, containing armaments or bombs or anything
8 else.
9 Q. It then records:
10 "IC saw a boy in denims carrying a new carbine
11 prancing around the Westland flats."
12 Did you see a boy in denims with a new carbine on
13 Bloody Sunday?
14 A. Absolute rubbish.
15 Q. "The three cars drove 'right up the street to the
16 Glenfada Park area'."
17 Then a little later on it records:
18 "IC says the cars with the Provos in went up to
19 Westland Street, opposite the Bogside Inn."
20 The journalist has written a note to himself:
21 "(I think he is flannelling. I think he just does not
22 want to say he saw lots of men with guns filing past him
23 in Meenan Park.)"
24 Did you see either men in cars or out of cars with
25 guns go up towards Westland Street opposite the
1 Bogside Inn?
2 A. I saw no-one on Bloody Sunday at any time in any place
3 with any guns or any type of bombs. I saw no-one at any
4 time in any place in any part of the Bogside.
5 Q. In between the paragraphs which deal with the
6 Provisionals there is a paragraph which relates to the
7 Officials. What is written is:
8 "IC had seen the Officials in the march --"
9 A. Where is this, please?
10 Q. Where the blue arrow is on the screen.
11 A. I have it now.
12 Q. "IC had seen the Officials in the march but nowhere
13 else."
14 Had you seen on the march people whom you recognised
15 as Officials?
16 A. Yes, I had.
17 Q. And "and IC only heard later that" and a name has been
18 obliterated. The cipher by which we know that name is
19 OIRA 6. Do not mention it, but can you see that name on
20 your copy? Do you have the name on your copy?
21 A. Yes, I have, thank you.
22 Q. Is that somebody whom you knew at the time of
23 Bloody Sunday?
24 A. I knew of him; I had never met him, but I had never
25 heard his name in connection with firing a revolver.
1 I had never -- I heard other names but not his.
2 Q. Because this note goes on to record:
3 "McEvoy told IC that" then the name is repeated "had
4 been running around mad with a pistol all afternoon.
5 McEvoy says he fired very, very early."
6 Had either George McEvoy or anyone else told you
7 anything to that effect?
8 A. No, and I have never been aware that that individual was
9 carrying a weapon on Bloody Sunday. I have heard other
10 names, but not that one.
11 Q. Right. Then a little later on in the note where I am
12 now pointing to with a red arrow on the screen, it
13 records this:
14 "IC says he made the comment about Derry's
15 Sharpeville at the top of Westland Street. He was on
16 his way to JH's [that must be John Hume's] and was
17 approached by three or four reporters. IC thought it
18 was a bloody bad time. He was desperately emotional."
19 A. There were no reporters at the top of Westland Street.
20 Q. You did make this comment about this being Derry's
21 Sharpeville; did you not?
22 A. I have seen it circulated, but I cannot recollect it.
23 I am aware that it was used in the film, but I cannot --
24 it is possible that I did, but it is not something that
25 I can recollect.
1 Q. Do you recollect when you spoke to reporters on
2 Bloody Sunday?
3 A. I do not -- I cannot recollect speaking to any reporters
4 on Bloody Sunday because I went from the scene to
5 John Hume's house and I went from there to the hospital
6 and then I came back to Hume's house for a conversation
7 with the Taoiseach.
8 Q. Then the note records:
9 "IC remembers one man with him behind the gable
10 [a name has been blanked out which we can unblank]
11 Aiden Hegarty from Dungiven."
12 Did you know Aiden Hegarty?
13 A. Yes, I did, I knew Aiden Hegarty.
14 Q. Did you see him on Bloody Sunday?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Then it goes on to record:
17 "IC admires the Provos and he more or less admitted
18 that he had seen them pile out. He talked of their
19 going into action with 'cold antiseptic efficiency' [the
20 journal has put] (ha) [to himself] said they were very
21 angry but quite cool, said he had never seen McEvoy so
22 angry and he pleaded with him to go home but McEvoy
23 would not."
24 Is all that an invention as well?
25 A. I have never supported any organisation or had
1 admiration for any organisation which takes human life.
2 Q. There is a passage that deals with going to John Hume's
3 house, which I do not think that I need ask you about
4 unless there is anything --
5 A. I think you should because...
6 Q. What would you like to say about it?
7 A. It says here that when I arrived at John Hume's house,
8 there was a journalist there. That is totally untrue.
9 It also says that I met his wife, Pat, on the stairs.
10 That is also totally untrue because the reason why we
11 had to lift the car from the chemist outside with the
12 keys in it is because Pat Hume was not there.
13 There is (indistinguishable) of John Hume saying to
14 me -- this bitchy stuff about probably doing a profile,
15 um -- when I told John how bad it was, um, he instantly
16 said he would come with me to the hospital. He did
17 not -- I have no recollection of him phoning the police,
18 none whatsoever because we went straight down the
19 stairs, straight out the door and straight to the
20 hospital.
21 Q. Is there anything else you would like to add in relation
22 to these paragraphs?
23 A. Are you at the stage yet where the -- it says "Paras
24 virtually all round it. They ran in"?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. "The first person they met was Mr Harvey, who is
2 responsible for admissions???"
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I do not believe that was the case.
5 Q. Do you mean that you met somebody else or that you met
6 Mr Harvey but he was not responsible for admissions?
7 A. I do not believe I met Mr Harvey and I know he was not
8 responsible for admissions.
9 Q. Who was Mr Harvey?
10 A. He was a consultant and he, if my memory serves me
11 right, he was an ophthalmic consultant. I stand to
12 correction on that, but I used to be a member of the
13 Western Health and Social Services Board, so I would
14 have known Mr Harvey.
15 Q. I can see there is a quadruple question mark after the
16 words "who is responsible for admissions???"; your
17 recollection is that you did not meet Mr Harvey at all,
18 or what?
19 A. I did not meet him at all. It says here "There were
20 a few priests around when we arrived." That also is not
21 true. The first priest to arrive after John Hume and
22 I arrived was Father O'Gara. There were not at that
23 stage any other priests.
24 Q. Can we come over the page, please, KC12.72. There is
25 then a description down to the fourth paragraph, of
1 events at the hospital. I was not proposing to ask you
2 any questions about it, but if there is anything that
3 you want to say about those four paragraphs, you --
4 A. I have no recollection of Mrs McGuigan attacking one of
5 the soldiers and trying to scratch his eyes out. It is
6 also quite significant that when I -- the reason why
7 I left the hospital was to take a telephone call from
8 the Irish Taoiseach; there is no mention of that, yet
9 I would have regarded that as being a very significant
10 thing.
11 Q. There is then a concluding paragraph which begins with
12 a name which has been blanked out which is the name of
13 the OC?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. "[Blank] strange story. [there is a name also blanked
16 out which is known to us as PIRA 11] disliked him
17 because he was not conducting the big war against
18 policemen that he wanted. Was much more 'a social
19 worker' according to IC. Did things like selling cars
20 and giving the money to Eamon Lafferty's mother but was
21 well-liked by his officers, four of whom used to
22 accompany him everywhere."
23 Is that something that you knew about the OC?
24 A. Total fabrication.
25 Q. No truth in it at all?
1 A. No truth whatsoever.
2 Q. "One being [and then a name has been blanked out which
3 is known to us as PIRA 14]."
4 Do not tell us the name, were you familiar with that
5 individual on Bloody Sunday?
6 A. I have known that individual since I was a very young
7 man. I did not see him on Bloody Sunday at all.
8 Q. Were you aware that he was an officer in the
9 Provisionals?
10 A. I must say I was not.
11 Q. I am sorry?
12 A. I was not, I was not aware of that. I have known him
13 since he was a young man.
14 Q. Then it goes on to say this:
15 "The circumstances of his [that is the OC's] removal
16 are obscure. IC says that he was told by McStiofain
17 that [his name appears] had been relieved of his post
18 for personal reasons -- these being that his wife had
19 tried to kill herself three times."
20 Had you been told by McStiofain that he had been
21 removed?
22 A. I was involved in discussions with McStiofain as
23 a representative of the SDLP; I did not, however, meet
24 McStiofain ever until after Bloody Sunday. So,
25 therefore, I had no discussions of that nature with
1 McStiofain because I did not even know him at that time.
2 As to the thing about the gentleman's wife had tried to
3 kill herself, I must say I found that to be scurrilous.
4 Q. When did you first have contact with McStiofain?
5 A. At least four months after that.
6 Q. Did he tell you anything about the removal of the OC --
7 A. Four months afterwards.
8 Q. Did he tell you anything --
9 A. No, he did not.
10 Q. "But [then there is a name which you will have in front
11 of you] who used to be the Brigade Commander (where???)
12 told IC that [there is the name of the OC] was still an
13 important man, was still being paid by the GAA -- which
14 pays all the officers and was in fact quartermaster and
15 hates McGuinness's guts."
16 The name that is in blank between the words "but"
17 and "who used," is he somebody whom you knew?
18 A. Which one are we talking about, Mr Clarke?
19 Q. I am sorry, it is rather difficult. You see where I am
20 pointing on the screen, the red arrow and the yellow
21 arrow?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Between the words "but" and "who used to be" there is in
24 your copy of this document a name?
25 A. I have never heard that that man was a brigade commander
1 or anything else.
2 Q. But that is a name of somebody who was known to you, is
3 it?
4 A. I do not know the man, I have never met him.
5 Q. Did you know of him?
6 A. I did not know of him either.
7 Q. When it says that that man told you that the OC was
8 still an important man, was still being paid by the GAA
9 and was in fact quartermaster and hates McGuinness's
10 guts, none of that is true; is that what your evidence
11 is?
12 A. Well, I would have known, because, um, people who were
13 members of the GAA played a very important part in
14 having me elected and I would know that the GAA has
15 absolutely no connection with any paramilitary
16 organisation, whether that is by way of payment or
17 anything else.
18 So all of that is total fabrication. When I was
19 first elected, the Chairman of my election committee was
20 Sean O'Connell who was perhaps one of the most famous
21 GAA players. Paddy Hearn, who is currently President of
22 Ballinascreen, my entire organisation was GAA and
23 I would have known that that was absolutely scurrilous
24 to even say it.
25 Q. Then there is a name that has been blanked out which
1 I am now pointing -- at the space I am now pointing to
2 in blue, before the words "alleges all sorts of
3 impropriety", and the name which is a surname is the
4 same surname as the individual who is known to us as
5 PIRA 17 "alleges all sorts of impropriety" the
6 journalist has written "I suppose that means
7 embezzlement against" and then there is then the name of
8 the OC.
9 "McEvoy and [there is the name of the OC] were close
10 though [and he has put] which may explain McEvoy's
11 manoeuverings."
12 Pausing there, were you aware that PIRA 17 or
13 somebody with the same surname had alleged all sorts of
14 impropriety against the OC?
15 A. I have never had that type of conversation with anyone
16 associated with the IRA; I never would have had that
17 type of conversation and that individual who it is
18 alleged said those things, I have -- I was not on the
19 terms necessary to have that type of conversation; I did
20 not know him very well.
21 Q. The next sentence reads:
22 "McEvoy [the name of the OC] were close though."
23 Did you know whether that was true or not?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. The last two sentences:
1 "The days of the Bligh's Lane bomb [name of the OC]
2 tried to get... " it says "McG", but it might be a typo
3 for Magee "... he rang him to do something; McG told him
4 to fuck off."
5 Do you know what the reference to the Bligh's Lane
6 bomb is?
7 A. I do not know what it is about at all.
8 Q. I have now gone at great length through each page of
9 this document. Can you think how on earth a document in
10 this length and detail came to be prepared if it does
11 not in fact reflect a conversation with you?
12 A. I have never been interviewed by the Sunday Times
13 Insight team or by anyone other than David Holden who
14 I believe interviewed me prior to Bloody Sunday; the
15 entire document is a fabrication.
16 Now, there are things that puzzle me about it.
17 First of all, why were these notes not taken at the time
18 that they were here, the Sunday Times Insight team was
19 here in Derry conducting, conducting a series of
20 interviews; they made no attempt to contact me, and what
21 I understand that Mr Barry said to this Tribunal was
22 that he had undertaken this exercise some months later.
23 I had a full-time office. I was easily contactable,
24 but I can tell you one thing, why would I give this sort
25 of story to the Sunday Times? I represented a small
1 rural constituency in the Sperrin mountains. There
2 would not have been any more than three or four Sunday
3 Times sold in it. It was not any good to me; that is
4 the first thing. The second thing is, do you think that
5 I have harboured this all of these years and spoken as
6 often as I have spoken about Bloody Sunday, in the full
7 knowledge that I had knowledge of bombs and guns?
8 Q. Could we have on the screen KC12.94. This is an article
9 written by Don Mullan that appeared in Ireland on Sunday
10 in June 2001. It contains in it a passage which may or
11 may not be right, but which I want to ask you about.
12 Which reads as follows:
13 "According to Ivan Cooper, highly-placed and
14 credible sources have told him that journalists working
15 for the Sunday Times Insight team in 1972 are not going
16 to stand over the above notes and other material
17 attributed to them."
18 Is that what you told Mr Mullan?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who was the "highly-placed and credible source" who gave
21 you the information which is there recorded?
22 A. A number of journalists have very strong opinions as to
23 how these eight pages have emerged. A number of
24 journalists have got opinions as to how these eight
25 pages emerged. I am certain of one thing: John Barry
1 did not interview me. So these pages must have been
2 constructed in some way, I do not know who was part of
3 the construction, but I know I contributed nothing
4 towards it.
5 Q. But were there highly-placed and credible sources who
6 told you -- erroneously as it turned out -- that the
7 journalists were not going to stand over the notes,
8 people who were on the Sunday Times or had any knowledge
9 of what they were talking about?
10 A. They were people who were associated with the
11 Bloody Sunday film.
12 Q. With the Bloody Sunday?
13 A. Film.
14 Q. I want to come now, if I may, to another topic: in your
15 second statement which begins at KC12.81, you deal with
16 various statements attributed to you in contemporary
17 newspapers, that is to say newspapers published very
18 soon after the events of Bloody Sunday. I do not want
19 to wearisomely go through all of those but there are two
20 or three to which I think we ought to look.
21 Could we have, please, on the screen L69.2. Could
22 we highlight the passage at the bottom right-hand
23 corner, headed "No Truth in Army Claim, says Cooper."
24 I should say that this is the Irish Times. This
25 purports to be a record of what you said apparently on
1 the day about the day. It reads as follows:
2 "Mr Ivan Cooper, MP for mid-Derry, said there were
3 about 15,000 to 20,000 people in the march."
4 Then it deals with reaching William Street, moving
5 on to Free Derry Corner; the troops up to that point
6 behaving very well; apparently adopting a much softer
7 line than they had at Magilligan.
8 Then in indirect speech the article goes on to say
9 this:
10 "The meeting opened and the crowd was very orderly
11 indeed and suddenly there was a burst of machine-gun
12 fire. The Army had used gas and dye at William Street
13 to prevent the march from proceeding any further ..."
14 A. I have lost myself, I am sorry.
15 Q. Do you have the heading "No Truth in Army Claim, says
16 Cooper"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you look at the second paragraph.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Where it is highlighted in blue; are you with me?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "I will read it again:
23 "The meeting opened and the crowd was very orderly
24 indeed and suddenly there was a burst of machine-gun
25 fire. The Army had used gas and dye at William Street
1 to prevent the march from proceeding any further and
2 then suddenly the paratroopers opened fire as the
3 meeting was listening to Ms Bernadette Devlin MP."
4 That, on its face, appears to be a record of you
5 recollecting that the initial fire that you heard when
6 the paratroopers opened fire as the meeting was
7 listening to Bernadette Devlin was a burst of
8 machine-gun fire. Did you in fact hear a burst of
9 machine-gun fire?
10 A. I do not read that article in the way that you are
11 interpreting it.
12 Q. How do you read it?
13 A. Well, for example there are no inverted commas here as
14 if it is a direct quotation; is that the case?
15 Q. Yes, that is what I said.
16 A. Well, I mean, that is not the case; it is untrue.
17 Q. What is untrue?
18 A. That there were nail bombs thrown --
19 Q. I am sorry, we have not got to that paragraph, I am
20 coming to that in a moment.
21 A. Sorry, there was no burst of machine-gun fire that
22 I heard.
23 Q. This is just an error, is it; you never heard what you
24 thought --
25 A. Mr Clarke, this is not a quotation from me.
1 Q. It is not a direct quotation.
2 A. No, it is not. Normally whenever you make a direct
3 quotation it is in inverted commas. If you look through
4 the article you can see that.
5 Q. Yes, absolutely.
6 A. This quotation is not from me, this is something which
7 was written by a journalist.
8 Q. It may be, as quite often happens, some parts are put in
9 direct quotation and then there is narrative indirectly
10 and then there is more direct quotation. But your
11 evidence to the Tribunal is that you never heard a burst
12 of machine-gun fire; is it?
13 A. That is my evidence to the Tribunal, and can I remind
14 you that I have already stated that I do not recollect
15 being interviewed by journalists on the day of the
16 march.
17 Q. Yes, but are you positively saying that no journalist
18 interviewed you?
19 A. You see, there is a difficulty with journalism. You
20 have things called stringers so you do not know who is,
21 who is doing various things. But it is significant that
22 in all of these pieces of paper which you have produced
23 to me, that none of them come from the Derry Journal,
24 our local paper. So they must have -- they must have
25 had a greater degree of accuracy in accounting, but as
1 far as I am concerned this is a journalist who has
2 written this, presumably he was an eyewitness, I do not
3 know, I do not know who wrote the article, do you?
4 Q. I do not know who wrote this particular article, no.
5 You have anticipated that my next question, in relation
6 to the next paragraph:
7 "Earlier some nail bombs and stones had been thrown
8 at the paratroopers, he said."
9 That is not in inverted commas, but plainly purports
10 to be an account of what you had personally said?
11 A. I had not said that.
12 Q. You had never said that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you had never heard nail bombs thrown?
15 A. There were no nail bombs thrown on Bloody Sunday.
16 Q. Further on in the article after a number of direct
17 quotations, there is a paragraph that reads as follows:
18 "Asked if the Army had been provoked by gunfire,
19 Mr Cooper said 'I can state absolutely positively that
20 there were no snipers there. There had been some
21 stone-throwing earlier, but that had been taken care of
22 by rubber bullets and dye. The sniper fire took place
23 ten minutes later when the local terrorist organisation
24 realised what had happened and decided to defend the
25 people as best they could. The British Army shot down
1 innocent people today. I hope nobody in Britain has the
2 audacity to stand up and say the Army was fired on.
3 They murdered people in this city today.'"
4 If that is accurately recorded, you were making the
5 point that sniper fire took place, but it took place ten
6 minutes later when some branch -- presumably, of the
7 IRA -- decided to defend the people as best they could;
8 is that the message that you gave to a journalist or
9 journalists on Bloody Sunday?
10 A. I am not responsible for this quotation. It did not
11 come from me. Can I also point out that there are no
12 anti-Unionist politicians who use the vocabulary
13 "terrorist organisation"; it is not used by
14 anti-Unionist politicians and, as I have already said to
15 you, I cannot recollect being interviewed by any
16 journalist on Bloody Sunday.
17 Q. Could we have on the screen, please, L50. Could we
18 please highlight the bottom half. Can we again
19 highlight this column and this column where Mr Cooper's
20 name appears. This is from the Irish Independent.
21 Again it purports to have verbatim quotes of what you
22 said. It begins by words that are not verbatim quotes.
23 "Mr Ivan Cooper, MP for Derry said he and a friend
24 were fired on by the soldiers as they tried to help the
25 wounded."
1 Was there a friend of yours who was fired on or were
2 you fired on as you tried to help wounded?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Then there is a passage in direct quotation marks:
5 "'I was on the platform at Free Derry Corner, and
6 I saw the Army firing at people who were running away.
7 I saw a wounded man lying on the ground and got some
8 pillow cases from a nearby house to try and stop the
9 bleeding. I gave some more pillow cases to a man with
10 me to attend to another civilian. We were both fired on
11 even though I raised a white flag. My friend had his
12 cheek grazed by a bullet."
13 You see there, there is attributed to you the
14 statement which is also attributed to you in the Sunday
15 Times interview, that you got some pillow cases from
16 a nearby house to try and stop the bleeding?
17 A. I got no pillow cases.
18 Q. So the Sunday Times and the Irish Independent have
19 independently misrepresented you?
20 A. I do not know how they acquired their copy; it is
21 a common thing for reporters to share copy. I repeat
22 once again: I went to John Hume's house after the
23 shooting incident; I certainly was not being interviewed
24 whilst people were being shot; I went to the hospital;
25 my hands were full there; I came back to take the
1 telephone call which I have already alluded to. I do
2 not recollect ever being interviewed by any journalist
3 on Bloody Sunday. So I do not know. Journalists will
4 tell you how they share copy and on occasions how they
5 manufacturer copy.
6 Q. Then it goes on to say:
7 "This is another Sharpeville. I am absolutely
8 certain that the Army opened fire first. There were no
9 nail bombs or petrol bombs and if there was firing from
10 the Provisionals or some other group, it came about ten
11 minutes after the Army had opened fire.'"
12 That is either a separate misrepresentation, is it,
13 or a repetition of the misrepresentation in the previous
14 article?
15 A. I have already, I have already explained my position.
16 Q. May we come, please, to AM208.1. Mr McEvoy has given
17 a statement to this Inquiry, which I believe you have
18 seen; is that right?
19 A. Yes, I have.
20 Q. There is not much that I want to go into in relation to
21 that at all, but there are two matters that I need to
22 take up with you. May I come, please, to AM208.2,
23 paragraphs 10 to 12. In these paragraphs he deals with
24 what was his business in the 1960s and the early 1970s
25 and being forced to hand over Derry Office Supplies to
1 Danes?
2 A. To Lanes.
3 Q. To Lanes, I am so sorry. He says that that happened
4 in February 1971, that he handed over the business and
5 afterwards started a business in Donegal and at the time
6 of Bloody Sunday was selling cash registers and
7 ice-cream machines in Donegal. He says after the Derry
8 Office Supplies business was passed on, he did not see
9 a lot of you.
10 How much contact did you have, both business and
11 social, with Mr McEvoy at the time of Bloody Sunday?
12 A. At the time of Bloody Sunday, on the day of
13 Bloody Sunday?
14 Q. No, I mean generally. What was your business and social
15 connection with him at that time?
16 A. I did not have any business connection with him. He had
17 driven me to public meetings.
18 Q. But you were a friend of his; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In that connection I ought to show you a document that
21 you may not have seen. Could we have on the screen
22 INT2.101. The Inquiry has received certain documents
23 from the police recording either statements said to have
24 been made to them or intelligence that they have said to
25 have gathered. This is one of those documents and it is
1 dated 21st June 1972. It is a report to the Assistant
2 Chief Constable of Special Branch about you. It reads,
3 insofar as it has not been blanked out:
4 "Reference [there is a name] George McEvoy. McEvoy
5 is a close friend of Ivan Cooper and it is believed they
6 were in business partnership in a quarry in the Claudy
7 area. This venture has now folded up and McEvoy is in
8 Scotland."
9 This, as I say, was written in June 1972. Had you
10 been in a partnership with him with a quarry in Claudy?
11 A. I had never been in partnership with George McEvoy in
12 any enterprise. Whoever wrote this document, I am
13 afraid, do not know very much about the Claudy area
14 because there are no stone quarries in the Claudy area.
15 The nearest stone quarry, which was operating at that
16 time, is in the Glenshane Pass. County Derry is a sand
17 area, it is not a quarry area and the only other quarry
18 which existed in the Claudy area closed about 50 years
19 ago. So I am afraid this was totally inaccurate.
20 I was never ever involved in any quarry business at
21 any time and I can tell you neither was McEvoy.
22 Q. There is a very generalised remark in the last paragraph
23 which I do not propose to ask you any questions about,
24 but which I show to you in case there is anything that
25 you want to say?
1 A. This was written in 1972 by the Special Branch?
2 Q. One assumes so, it is certainly addressed to an
3 Assistant Chief Constable in Special Branch.
4 A. Taking into account the record of the Special Branch in
5 1972, I do not even think it is worthy of me commenting
6 on it. I had no financial dealings with George McEvoy;
7 I was not involved in business with him; he was not
8 involved in a quarry at any time and neither was I.
9 Q. Could we go back, please, to AM208.2, paragraphs 10 to
10 the end. He says:
11 "After the Derry Office Supplies business was passed
12 on, I did not see a lot of Ivan Cooper. We were not
13 close friends or drinking buddies. My ex-wife was,
14 however, friendly with his wife. I can remember bumping
15 into him a few times during the early 1970s, but
16 I certainly did not socialise or have 'a professional
17 relationship' with him."
18 Is that paragraph accurate?
19 A. It is not accurate.
20 Q. What is inaccurate about it?
21 A. He did not have a professional relationship with me, but
22 he did drive me to meetings on occasions.
23 Q. With that qualification, is the paragraph accurate?
24 A. Paragraph 11?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Yes, he saw quite a bit of me and my wife was friendly
2 with his ex-wife.
3 Q. Then he says in paragraph 12:
4 "The next time of note that I met with Ivan Cooper
5 was at the Inter-County Hotel in Lifford, Donegal. This
6 was after Bloody Sunday although I cannot recall exactly
7 when or how long after Bloody Sunday this was."
8 Then he talks about the ownership of the hotel. He
9 says:
10 "I had gone to the hotel to meet with
11 Senator McGowan and I went there to do some networking
12 for my Donegal business. I can remember seeing
13 Ivan Cooper there with" then a name has been blanked out
14 which is the same name as the OC -- the same surname as
15 the OC of the Provisionals on Bloody Sunday "although
16 I had not gone to the hotel to meet with them. It was
17 early evening and I just said 'Hello' to them and then
18 had my meeting; they did not come to join us."
19 Two questions; firstly, do you have any recollection
20 of whatever meeting this is that he was talking about?
21 A. No, I do not. Senator McGowan was a close friend of
22 mine, an extremely close friend for many years and I did
23 frequent the Inter-County Hotel.
24 Q. Did you meet the OC -- the man who was the OC of the
25 Provisionals on Bloody Sunday?
1 A. I have no recollection whatsoever of that.
2 Q. He then deals with various matters which I do not think
3 I need to deal with, save two which in the light of what
4 he said I am afraid I must ask you. He says that he met
5 you in 1984. He says this:
6 "He was by this time an alcoholic and had already
7 been arrested in Donegal."
8 Is the former part of that sentence right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. At AM208.5, in paragraph 17 he says this, that you are
11 a fantastic liar; that the statement you made to the
12 Sunday Times is a fabrication; well, you agree with
13 that. He says:
14 "I suspect he made the statement to make himself
15 sound like an important politician for the journalists."
16 Is there any truth in that suggestion?
17 A. There is not any truth in that. There is no advantage
18 for me in my constituency to have given an interview to
19 the Sunday Times; there would not be any more than four
20 of them sold in the entire constituency.
21 MR CLARKE: Thank you, those are my questions.
22 LORD SAVILLE: I think it is probably a convenient time for
23 us to take a short break and come back just after 3.00,
24 please.
25 We will have a short break, Mr Cooper, at this time.
1 (2.55 pm)
2 (A short break)
3 (3.10 pm)
4 Questioned by MR O'DONOVAN
5 MR O'DONOVAN: Mr Cooper, my name is O'Donovan, I represent
6 a number of people who, in 1972, were members of the
7 Official IRA.
8 You had a formal meeting with representatives of the
9 Provisional IRA; did you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You followed that up then by a less formal meeting with
12 members of the Official IRA?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Presumably the purpose of those meetings was to
15 ascertain what precisely those paramilitary bodies
16 proposed to do on the day of the march?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. And I suppose in particular you wanted to know whether
19 they would be using it as an opportunity to open fire
20 upon the Armed Forces?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Would I be right in thinking that your major concern was
23 that if they did so there was a real risk that civilians
24 would be at risk of injury or, worse still, being
25 killed?
1 A. That was my primary thinking.
2 Q. Would I be right in thinking that if you had a belief
3 that members of either wing of the IRA were likely to
4 open fire, you would not have been supporting the march?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. As it turned out, you did in fact support the march; did
7 you not?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Effectively in reaching that decision you relied upon
10 the information that was relayed back to you by the
11 Provisional IRA?
12 A. Substantially.
13 Q. Yes?
14 A. But not totally.
15 Q. Quite. The next point I wish to make, is
16 this: presumably you were not the only person associated
17 with the march who was, if you like, receiving political
18 intelligence back through the community?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. There would have been the officers of NICRA?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr McCorry in particular?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So that when you made your decision, you had to weigh in
25 your mind whether the Official IRA would in fact behave
1 like the Provisionals proposed to behave?
2 A. It was a consideration.
3 Q. Presumably when you supported the march you must have
4 had credible information that satisfied you that the
5 Officials were going to behave like the Provisionals,
6 namely, they would not be opening fire?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. One small matter, when you met with the people who were
9 from the Official IRA, you have indicated to the
10 Tribunal the identity of those persons; have you not?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. One of those persons that you identified was a person
13 I believe you now know to be OIRA 1; is that right? If
14 I can put it this way, the person who was not Red Mickey
15 Doherty?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Just a small point, are you sure it was him and not
18 another member of the command staff?
19 A. I am sure it was him.
20 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
21 Questioned by MR LAWSON
22 MR LAWSON: Sir, I understand --
23 LORD SAVILLE: We did not want to sit on much beyond 3.30,
24 3.40, so when you reach a convenient moment perhaps you
25 would let me know.
1 MR LAWSON: Thank you very much. Mr Cooper, my name is
2 Lawson and I represent quite a lot of the soldiers.
3 Can I ask, please, for assistance and clarification
4 further about the Barry interview notes. I will return
5 to them tomorrow, if I may, but you have this afternoon
6 for the first time, have you not, given an account, line
7 by line, of what is true or what is not true?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. It is fair to say that the vast majority of what is
10 contained in those notes you say is not true?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can I be clear as to this, please: can we have on the
15 screen KC12.70. First can we have the paragraph just
16 above halfway down the page, beginning:
17 "But when I heard two cracks ..."
18 This, by all means if you wish to look at the
19 context look at the hard copy which I think you have,
20 but this is describing -- purports to be your
21 description to Barry of early on when you hear the
22 firing when you are still on the platform, right?
23 A. This is supposed to be my comments to Barry.
24 Q. Let me ask you about this: is it correct -- I think it
25 is, is it not -- that as a matter of fact while you were
1 on the platform you say you could see bullets bouncing
2 off the road?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That is true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it true that some people were running away?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Is it true that some bullets struck the wall above your
9 head?
10 A. It could have happened, I am not certain.
11 Q. You said when Mr Clarke asked you about that --
12 A. I recollect it very well, what I said, I said it was
13 possible.
14 Q. Look on the screen, would you, please, at KC12.4. Can
15 we highlight paragraph 44. You became, you say, in your
16 statement to this Inquiry, conscious of maybe 20 to 25
17 bullets flying around.
18 "Some bullets seemed to be hitting something above
19 me. They appeared to me to be flying from straight in
20 front of me (north to south) over my head and hitting
21 the wall behind me."
22 The description given to this Inquiry and adopted by
23 you when first you began your evidence today, was that
24 it appeared to you that bullets were hitting the wall
25 behind and above you?
1 A. I have said "some bullets seemed to be hitting" and
2 I have said "they appeared to me to be flying from
3 straight in front of me".
4 Q. And to be hitting the wall behind you?
5 A. And to be hitting the wall behind me. I have not said
6 positively that that was the case; I have said "they
7 seemed" and "they appeared".
8 Q. Back to KC12.70, and the same paragraph:
9 "When I heard two cracks ..."
10 The short sentence:
11 "Some struck the wall above our head," if we put in
12 the word "seemed", or "seemed to", or "appeared to",
13 "Some seemed to strike the wall above our head," that
14 would be true?
15 A. Where is this, please?
16 Q. The third line from the end of the paragraph which is on
17 the screen in front of you after the words:
18 "People were running off, some... ", which is
19 obviously a reference to bullets and not people "some
20 struck the wall above our head"; that you would confirm
21 to be accurate if it was qualified to read something
22 like "some appeared to strike the wall above our heads"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It was also correct, was it not, that at that time you
2 thought there was shooting coming from the Derry Walls?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there was also shooting coming from ahead of you,
5 from the north; is that right, from the flats direction?
6 A. From Rossville Street direction, yes.
7 Q. From two sides, gunfire from the walls and gunfire from
8 Rossville Street?
9 A. The gunfire which was coming from the walls could not
10 have come from the Rossville Street area.
11 Q. Forgive me, there were two sources of fire as far as you
12 were concerned?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that right?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. The walls and Rossville Street?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. You were sure that gunfire was coming from two sides?
19 A. It appeared to me to be the case.
20 Q. Which is what you said, is it not, to Mr Barry?
21 A. I did not give an interview to Mr Barry.
22 Q. Can we have the next paragraph, please. The note goes
23 on to say that your recollections next were pretty
24 incoherent geographically. That is Barry's comment.
25 "He seems to have headed for Meenan Square, where he
1 saw a few Officials from his constituency cowering in
2 a corner."
3 I want to be quite clear about this: did you go to
4 Meenan Square?
5 A. I was not in Meenan Square.
6 Q. Did you go there at all?
7 A. Sorry I did not, I did not go there at all.
8 Q. If you say you did not go there, did you anywhere in
9 that area see some Officials?
10 A. I have already answered that question to Mr Clarke.
11 I said there were Officials in Glenfada Park.
12 Q. Did you see any Officials in the area of Meenan Square
13 or near the Bogside Inn?
14 A. I was not in Meenan Square.
15 Q. Were you near the Bogside Inn?
16 A. I was not in the courtyard of the Bogside Inn either.
17 Q. Were you with people from your constituency cowering in
18 a corner?
19 A. In where?
20 Q. In or near to Meenan Square?
21 A. Not near Meenan Square; not near the Bogside Inn
22 courtyard; Glenfada Park.
23 Q. Let me ask for your assistance as to this. You have
24 given us the benefit of your wisdom in relation to
25 journalists, let me ask you about civilians. Could we
1 see, please, on the screen the transcript, Day 124,
2 page 157. This is a witness called Margo Collins. Do
3 you know Margo Collins --
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. -- who gave evidence to this Inquiry on Day 124. She,
6 as you can see, was being asked, look at the question
7 beginning at line 8, was asked about who she saw when
8 she reached Meenan Square. It is a reference to what is
9 in her statement. The reference is given and others can
10 check it. You say in the statement:
11 "When you reached Meenan Square you saw Eamonn
12 McCann there and a few minutes later Ivan Cooper
13 arrived?
14 "Answer: Yes, I will never forget Ivan Cooper.
15 "Question: Did you know him?
16 "Answer: Yes, and I have never seen anyone as
17 white-faced in my life before or since. He was
18 absolutely shattered and he was the one who said 'There
19 are two people dead' ... his face was something I will
20 not forget ... there was absolute silence in the square,
21 nobody spoke ... it was a strange feeling."
22 Is Margo Collins, in your assessment, a reliable
23 person?
24 A. I think she is a reliable person, yes --
25 Q. Is what she is saying to this Tribunal, in her evidence,
1 years ago, true?
2 A. I think she is mistaken.
3 Q. It is a mistake?
4 A. She, she does not come from the Derry area.
5 Margo Collins comes from Newry, which is over 100 miles
6 away. I think she is mistaken.
7 Q. What does the fact that she comes from over 100 miles
8 away have to do with her certainty and her assurance
9 that she will never forget the sight of you that day
10 in --
11 A. I think she --
12 Q. Let me finish -- in Meenan Square?
13 A. I think she is mistaken.
14 Q. Do you know Seamus Duffy?
15 A. I do not.
16 Q. Can we see Day 189, page 110. He too was being asked
17 questions about his statement but I am asking you about
18 his sworn or affirmed evidence to this Tribunal on
19 Day 189. He had described in his statement a route he
20 had taken through St Columb's Wells and then to the
21 Bogside Inn.
22 "Question: ... You say that Ivan Cooper, your local
23 MP was huddling people against a wall in the courtyard
24 by the Bogside Inn. Are you quite sure that Mr Cooper
25 was there?
1 "Answer: Yes" he said.
2 Pause there: is he mistaken?
3 A. This is not Meenan Square.
4 Q. I asked you about the Bogside Inn previously?
5 A. I was not in the courtyard in the Bogside Inn.
6 Q. Is he mistaken as well?
7 A. I believe that he is. I have read his evidence and
8 I have also looked at the evidence of people that I was
9 alleged to have met.
10 Q. But he, Mr Duffy, is mistaken?
11 A. I think he is mistaken, yes.
12 Q. Had you read Margo Collins's evidence?
13 A. No, I had not prior to you raising it now.
14 Q. He, Mr Duffy, having said he was quite sure you were
15 there, you say mistakenly so, was then asked about
16 a number of photographs. Can we just scan down, I do
17 not want you to think I am depriving you of anything.
18 Keep going, it is all about photographs and pointing at
19 arrows and McKeown's Lane, et cetera. Pause there for
20 a moment. Do you see in the course of that, you see
21 what is just above 112 in the middle of the screen now?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After his Lordship sought clarification, the Chairman,
24 the witness said:
25 "Well, it was behind the Bogside Inn" just
1 confirming that is the area that he is talking about; do
2 you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. You have read this, so it will not be unfamiliar to you.
5 Perhaps as you have read it, as you have helpfully said,
6 I can go straight to page 115. With reference to his
7 statement at line 3 he is asked the question, as you can
8 see, about seeing three boys come into the courtyard
9 whom he believed to be members of the Official IRA and
10 was asked:
11 "Question: How far away were they from the group
12 with Mr Cooper?
13 "Answer: When I came into the courtyard there were
14 some people telling where to get off-sides, telling them
15 to get out of the road and Mr Cooper was also discussing
16 with them to move off."
17 He says in answer to the question:
18 "Question: You remember Mr Cooper actually speaking
19 to them [at line 17]?
20 "Answer: It looked that way."
21 So is he entirely mistaken?
22 A. Is it the case that the members of the Official IRA who
23 it is alleged by Mr Duffy were present there, have they,
24 have they agreed that they were there? Am I allowed to
25 mention one of the individuals which he named?
1 LORD SAVILLE: I think the way to deal with this, subject to
2 Mr Clarke, is for you to write the name down or give it
3 to Mr Frankson. Then we can give it to Mr Clarke and if
4 we may either have a cipher or be satisfied that it is
5 perfectly okay for you to give the name.
6 A. I have -- I had looked at this evidence given by
7 Mr Duffy and he names the name of an Official IRA
8 person --
9 LORD SAVILLE: You will appreciate, Mr Cooper, we have to be
10 so careful to protect people's Article 2 rights that
11 I would ask you to do it that way.
12 MR CLARKE: It is Reg Tester.
13 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, you can mention that name.
14 MR LAWSON: Thank you.
15 A. From my reading of Mr Duffy's evidence, it came across
16 to me that Mr Tester had disputed that he was in that
17 area at that time. This individual, I, I did not know
18 then and I do not know now.
19 Q. Which individual?
20 A. Tester. I have never met him, to my knowledge.
21 Q. Can I ask you the question: are you suggesting to the
22 Tribunal that Mr Duffy is mistaken --
23 A. I think he is mistaken, yes.
24 Q. -- in saying that he saw you in the area of the
25 Bogside Inn?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- at this point?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let alone in the presence of members of the Official
5 IRA?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So two mistakes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Just help, please, to go back to KC12.70, so that we can
10 understand how fundamental your disagreement with
11 Barry's notes is. Help me, just two further respects
12 perhaps this afternoon, do you see in the passage
13 already on the screen there is reference to something
14 you have been referred to a few lines down, you going to
15 get pillow slips?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say --
18 A. I never, I never got pillow slips at any stage on
19 Bloody Sunday.
20 Q. Or anything else like a pillow slip?
21 A. Or anything else like a pillow slip. I was aware that
22 some people were taking clothes off lines, but I was not
23 involved in that.
24 Q. You are aware, we can look at it if need be tomorrow,
25 you are aware, are you not, of there being numerous
1 press reports from the time attributed to you whether in
2 or out of quotation marks, referring to the waving of
3 a pillow case, a handkerchief --
4 A. I never --
5 Q. Let me finish the question, please, sir -- a pillow case
6 or a handkerchief or something else white that you were
7 waving around, notwithstanding which the soldier still
8 shot at you; you know that that is in the newspapers, do
9 you not?
10 A. I never waved anything at any stage. The only person
11 that I saw waving anything was Barney McGuigan.
12 Q. But you are fully aware that there are -- we will look
13 at them perhaps tomorrow, we had better -- there are
14 references to your waving a pillow slip, something else
15 white or whatever in a number of the Irish newspapers
16 published at or about Bloody Sunday; you know that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you not give that information to any journalist?
19 A. No.
20 Q. None at all?
21 A. None.
22 Q. They all picked it up from some mysterious anonymous
23 stringer?
24 A. Mr Lawson, you are well aware on a day like this how
25 newspaper reporters are forced to work and the
1 conditions under which they are forced to work.
2 Q. Let me ask you finally about this: do you wish to
3 reflect upon the denial that you have made at what
4 appears almost halfway down the screen, the accuracy of
5 it:
6 "IC made two telephone calls, one to McDermott and
7 one to McCabe."
8 You said you did not telephone either of them?
9 A. I have no memory of phoning either of them.
10 Q. You said you did not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now it is no memory?
13 A. Sorry, I did not.
14 Q. When you made a statement to this Inquiry you had no
15 memory of being interviewed by a Sunday Times
16 journalist?
17 A. Sorry, I never was interviewed by a Sunday Times
18 journalist.
19 Q. Now you say it never happened; which is it?
20 A. I never ever was interviewed by John Barry or any member
21 of the Insight team of the Sunday Times or anyone else
22 from the Sunday Times in connection with Bloody Sunday.
23 Q. When you went to make your telephone call or take the
24 telephone call that you did from the place in
25 Glenfada Park, did you take the opportunity also to
1 telephone Dr McCabe?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Dr McCabe says you did.
4 A. Well, I do not have any recollection.
5 Q. Dr McCabe, in his statements and in the evidence he has
6 given to this Inquiry says -- unless it is true to say,
7 unless his wife is making it up, he says his wife
8 received a telephone call from you which she passed on
9 to the surgery at about 4 o'clock that afternoon?
10 A. I have no, I have no memory of that.
11 Q. You do not say he is mistaken, lying or wrong,
12 presumably?
13 A. I have not heard Dr McCabe's evidence to the Tribunal.
14 Q. The Tribunal has, and no-one has questioned it. You
15 presumably do not question it, do you?
16 A. It would have been helpful to me if I -- my counsel had
17 an opportunity to cross-examine John Barry whenever he
18 appeared at the Tribunal; I did not have that
19 opportunity.
20 Q. Did you speak to Dr McCabe?
21 A. I have not spoken to Dr McCabe for many years.
22 Q. Did you speak to him on the afternoon of Bloody Sunday?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You did not?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. You stand by that?
2 A. I stand by that.
3 Q. So there is no possibility of mistake in relation to it?
4 A. I did not speak to Dr McCabe on Bloody Sunday or did
5 I see him.
6 Q. Did you speak to his wife?
7 A. I have no memory of speaking to his wife.
8 Q. Did you try to speak to Dr McCabe?
9 A. I have no memory of that.
10 Q. Because you did do, did you not, Mr Cooper?
11 A. Sorry, I do not have any memory, do you not understand?
12 Q. If you do not have any memory of it so you are simply
13 unable to assist the Tribunal, why do you not simply say
14 that: I do not remember?
15 A. I do not remember.
16 Q. Right, so somehow Mr Barry got hold of the information
17 that you had apparently telephoned to Dr McCabe that
18 afternoon. Can you suggest to the Tribunal finally this
19 afternoon from where he might have got that information?
20 A. I, I am not in a position to suggest anything of the
21 nature.
22 Q. You saw Dr McCabe a little later, did you not, at
23 Altnagelvin?
24 A. I do not remember meeting Dr McCabe at Altnagelvin.
25 Q. He says he did speak with you, but you do not remember
1 that either?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. Do you remember Mr Harvey being there -- finally this
4 for the afternoon -- at the hospital?
5 A. Sorry?
6 Q. Mr Harvey?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. He was not there either that you remember?
9 A. I do not remember.
10 Q. Dr McCabe says he was. He does remember he was there.
11 That, presumably, you would not dispute?
12 A. If Dr McCabe said it, I would not dispute but let me
13 point out that I knew Mr Harvey.
14 Q. Sir, I wonder if that would be a convenient moment for
15 today?
16 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, it would indeed. We will come back to
17 this, Mr Cooper, if we may at 9.30 tomorrow morning. We
18 have as I understand it another witness tomorrow,
19 Mr Kevin Martin. 9.30.
20 (3.40 pm)
21 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 on Tuesday,
22 3rd February 2004)
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1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 MR IVAN COOPER, sworn ........................ 1
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE ...................... 1
5 Questioned by MR O'DONOVAN ................... 157
6 Questioned by MR LAWSON ...................... 159
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